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Pure water problems!

Chris Dall

Active member
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Hearing you all getting as low as 005 after membranes before resin!

I've got a twin boosted Pure freedom with a water softener before. Just put brand spanking new Axeon 4040 membranes, sediments and carbon in, and the best I can get is 019 before resin!! How!! I'm pulling my hair out.

Any help would be very appreciated, thank you.

 
But whats your input tds? The higher the tap water tds the higher the r/o output tds from the membrane.

I know nothing about water softeners in practice as I don't own one.

I think its was @doug atkinson that once said that a poorly running softener can create more issues than they solve. (I can't find the post though. He did mention on another thread that a 10" softener is a waste of time. How long should a ro last? You participated on the post as well. /emoticons/wink.png)

A water softener removes the calcium and magnesium ions in the water and replaces them with sodium ions. So the water coming out of a water softener will still record the same tds readings as the water going in. Its not softer, its just that sodium ions are kinder on r/o membranes than calcium and magnesium ions.

So as an experiment, why not remove the softener from the system and see if it improves matters.

Where's my Harp? Got it. I know I keep harping on at this but what is your pure to waste ratio set at whilst you are processing water? In other words, if you put the pure water produced and the waste produced into separate plastic containers side by side at the same time, what's the difference between the 2 over a period of time. (If you filled a 25 liter plastic drum with waste water, how much pure did you produce at the same time. Half a container of pure would be 2 waste to 1 pure, a full container of each would be 1 to 1.

In Hartlepool the water is around 550ppm. At an efficiency of 97%, pure from an r/o membrane would be at 17 ppm.

.

 
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Mine comes out of 2 20" per filters and a 40" RO at around 011ppm. Water pressure is just under 40 and water going in is 200 ish. I make a note of how much pure I make everyday. When would I need to change my filters @spruce?

 
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Mine comes out of 2 20" per filters and a 20" RO at around 011ppm. Water pressure is just under 40 and water going in is 200 ish. I make a note of how much pure I make everyday. When would I need to change my filters @spruce?
Hi @Tuffers.

When to change your prefilters depends on what prefilters they are. Most sediment filters are then same being 5 micron. Its the next filter that is the important one. Its the one that removes chlorine from the water. Chlorine destroys membranes. Once a chlorine prefilter's service life is complete it no longer removes chlorine from the water. That water passes into the membrane and starts eating it away.

There are different types of chlorine filters but most of us refer to them as carbon block filters. Some of the cheaper ones have a shorter service life. One I looked at the other day had service life of 12000 liters. The GAC filters I bought only had a service life of 10000 liters. The ones I use are Fiberdyne c/b and they are good for 75700 liters. The service life of a c/b filter is a total of all the water that goes through it. So that's not only the pure you produce, but the waste water as well.

The only way you will know exactly when to change your prefilters is to have a water meter on the inlet to your r/o. But you can get a good idea if you know what your pure to waste ratio is. So if your r/o produces the same amount of waste water as it does pure you have a 1 to 1 setting. In that case if you are using 1000 liters of pure a week, then your total water usage to produce that water is 2000 liters. If you have a filter with a service life of 12000 liters then you need to change that filter every 6 weeks.

Now, the manufacturers of these carbon block filters can't know how much chlorine is in your water. In fact @doug atkinson recently advised that the further you are from the 'dosing' station, the weaker the concentration of chlorine in your water. So the manufacturers must work on the maximum possible chlorine amount that could be in your water and work their calculations based on that. So if your water has half the amount of chlorine that the manufacturer has calculated the service life on, then your filters will last longer. However, is could also be that a manufacturer, making a poorer quality filter, may use average chlorine figures to calculate that filter's service life. This would make his product look better than it is.

The battery manufacturers do it with regard to cycles so why not others?

I have found that working to the specs provided has served me well.This is why I also will only buy filters from a highly respected manufacturer. I am very wary of bulk purchase deals where you can buy 20 sets of filters for £10 with free delivery off Ebay.

Your membrane is working at an efficiency of 94.5%. How old is it? The reason for asking is that one would normally replace the membrane when it gets to around 94%. It could however be due to your low water pressure.

.

 
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Hi @Tuffers.
When to change your prefilters depends on what prefilters they are. Most sediment filters are then same being 5 micron. Its the next filter that is the important one. Its the one that removes chlorine from the water. Chlorine destroys membranes. Once a chlorine prefilter's service life is complete it no longer removes chlorine from the water. That water passes into the membrane and starts eating it away.

There are different types of chlorine filters but most of us refer to them as carbon block filters. Some of the cheaper ones have a shorter service life. One I looked at the other day had service life of 12000 liters. The GAC filters I bought only had a service life of 10000 liters. The ones I use are Fiberdyne c/b and they are good for 75700 liters. The service life of a c/b filter is a total of all the water that goes through it. So that's not only the pure you produce, but the waste water as well.

The only way you will know exactly when to change your prefilters is to have a water meter on the inlet to your r/o. But you can get a good idea if you know what your pure to waste ratio is. So if your r/o produces the same amount of waste water as it does pure you have a 1 to 1 setting. In that case if you are using 1000 liters of pure a week, then your total water usage to produce that water is 2000 liters. If you have a filter with a service life of 12000 liters then you need to change that filter every 6 weeks.

Now, the manufacturers of these carbon block filters can't know how much chlorine is in your water. In fact @doug atkinson recently advised that the further you are from the 'dosing' station, the weaker the concentration of chlorine in your water. So the manufacturers must work on the maximum possible chlorine amount that could be in your water and work their calculations based on that. So if your water has half the amount of chlorine that the manufacturer has calculated the service life on, then your filters will last longer. However, is could also be that a manufacturer, making a poorer quality filter, may use average chlorine figures to calculate that filter's service life. This would make his product look better than it is.

The battery manufacturers do it with regard to cycles so why not others?

I have found that working to the specs provided has served me well.This is why I also will only buy filters from a highly respected manufacturer. I am very wary of bulk purchase deals where you can buy 20 sets of filters for £10 with free delivery off Ebay.

Your membrane is working at an efficiency of 94.5%. How old is it? The reason for asking is that one would normally replace the membrane when it gets to around 94%. It could however be due to your low water pressure.

.
My system is about 8 weeks old. Update on water coming out of RO is reading 008. The RO is the HF4 or HF5 (the one to be used without booster pump). My tap water is very milky too. You can turn a chrome tap on in the bathroom and wipe it over with the water coming out of it and it never dries clear, there's always a milky residue.

 
8 is better. I would complain to your water supplier about the water and ask them to explain why the water is the way it is.

 
Chris how long has the resin been in the water softener. If it is totally exhausted you will find that we you do a back flush it will not work therefore your ppm going into your membrane will be sky high as the resin will not be working.

As Spruce says disconnect the softener and see if your ppm comes down.

As you have a twin R/O i would expect one be feeding the other. You second R/O membrane would be reading higher.

Measure both outputs and you will see.

 
@Tuffers
The pre fiters are crazy cheap. Cost abot £10 each I think.

I change them every 4-6 weeks as habit. O produce 2500 liters per week at 150 going in. 40" RO 2-3 ppm out (through booster) then 25 liter DI to finish up before tank.
Yes, I must give pure freedom a call and get some pre filters. I'm having problems sourcing a 20" filter wrench too. What was the ppm before you got a booster?

 
@Tuffers
The pre fiters are crazy cheap. Cost abot £10 each I think.

I change them every 4-6 weeks as habit. O produce 2500 liters per week at 150 going in. 40" RO 2-3 ppm out (through booster) then 25 liter DI to finish up before tank.
Yes, I must give pure freedom a call and get some pre filters. I'm having problems sourcing a 20" filter wrench too. What was the ppm before you got a booster?

 
Maybe you guys can advise me. Currently Im only using an Unger DI filter (6L) to make my pure, however I know that I want to upgrade to an RO in the new year and transition more of my work over to pure. My area is very hard water - north of 250ppm out of the tap - Im SW London/Surrey

I've been looking at pure freedoms equipment and I noticed another member on here talking about how good it was to have an RO, cost wise as resin on its own isn't cheap.

So can I connect pure freedoms RO to my current DI as the final stage or would I need to get rid of my DI vessel?

Also, does RO filtering take longer? And what are the costs involved becasue Im not too sure about the entire process to be honest.

What would be the best option for me?

I still trad a fair bit but after trying pure out, I now see that it is the future and the results are better.

Any help appreciated - thanks

 
Maybe you guys can advise me. Currently Im only using an Unger DI filter (6L) to make my pure, however I know that I want to upgrade to an RO in the new year and transition more of my work over to pure. My area is very hard water - north of 250ppm out of the tap - Im SW London/Surrey
I've been looking at pure freedoms equipment and I noticed another member on here talking about how good it was to have an RO, cost wise as resin on its own isn't cheap.

So can I connect pure freedoms RO to my current DI as the final stage or would I need to get rid of my DI vessel?

Also, does RO filtering take longer? And what are the costs involved becasue Im not too sure about the entire process to be honest.

What would be the best option for me?

I still trad a fair bit but after trying pure out, I now see that it is the future and the results are better.

Any help appreciated - thanks
I'm Thames water like you and am amazed you are only using a d.i with one of the hardest waters in the country.

Anyway, a d.i vessel will connect to any r.o, its just a case of using the right connecters.

As for money, if you get yourself a 300 GPD, 450, GPD or 600 GPD you could spend £200 and get spare pre filters.

If however you want to produce a lot of water at a quicker rate, then a 40/40 is your answer.

What ever you do, definitely get an r.o, you will spend a fortune purifying Thames water just using a d.i. Good luck

 
I'm Thames water like you and am amazed you are only using a d.i with one of the hardest waters in the country.Anyway, a d.i vessel will connect to any r.o, its just a case of using the right connecters.

As for money, if you get yourself a 300 GPD, 450, GPD or 600 GPD you could spend £200 and get spare pre filters.

If however you want to produce a lot of water at a quicker rate, then a 40/40 is your answer.

What ever you do, definitely get an r.o, you will spend a fortune purifying Thames water just using a d.i. Good luck
Thanks Steve. Yeah I know what your saying, the reason Im using DI is becasue I only made the transition to pure this summer after just tradding before that. I brought the kit on WCW - unger filter, pole and 4 barrells.

The majority of my round is built on tradding but I want to take on more and pure is a damn sight quicker. Im thinking if I buy the equipment to filter more pure at a cheaper rate, then I can do more jobs per day and take on more customers, thus increasing turnover. Thanks for the tips - I will speak to purefreedom after the new year and get advice also from them before ordering anything.

I do all my filtering in the bathtub and fill my barrells before storing them outside, then use them as and when. Can I have the same sort of set up with the RO I wonder?

 
Spoke to Daqua on the telephone, very helpful ontop of all your help thanks guys. I'll get on all the tests tomorrow

 
Thanks Steve. Yeah I know what your saying, the reason Im using DI is becasue I only made the transition to pure this summer after just tradding before that. I brought the kit on WCW - unger filter, pole and 4 barrells.
The majority of my round is built on tradding but I want to take on more and pure is a damn sight quicker. Im thinking if I buy the equipment to filter more pure at a cheaper rate, then I can do more jobs per day and take on more customers, thus increasing turnover. Thanks for the tips - I will speak to purefreedom after the new year and get advice also from them before ordering anything.

I do all my filtering in the bathtub and fill my barrells before storing them outside, then use them as and when. Can I have the same sort of set up with the RO I wonder?
If u haven't a garage etc, you could always install your r.o under the kitchen sink

 

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