You're insured for that? really? look again.

[Green Pro Clean Ltd]

This is something that is of major importance for all of us not only to understand but also to abide by, (no I don't get commission from the insurance broker.

What exactly are you covered to do? Are you even covered? Do you even know?

This comes about after a conversation the other day with my insurance broker, a man I pay some £550 per year to and hope I will never need to call.

I have been approached by a football stadium with a major ground here in Nottingham to do the windows on all the function rooms, offices and VIP boxes. They came to us as one of my crew has a connection there.

They have sacked off more window cleaners than I can count due to shoddy workmanship and dont like WFP as it does not (in their words) provide a good enough finish. AS the Function rooms are located on the second floor I figured I would get in a scissor lift or cherry picker to do the job.

Called up my local plant hire place and got a quote, they said they would need to see my plant insurance prior to rental or take out their insurance.

So I called my broker, within 10 seconds I have discovered 'NOT COVERED AT A FOOTBALL STADIUM AS IT IS A HAZARDOUS WORKING ENVIRONMENT.'

A brief chit chat more and he reminds me that the policy covers us for ladders and poles up to 10 meters.

Usually no problem at all as 99.5% of our work is residential but nice to get a reminder.

Also reminded me that whilst my guys are covered for £10'000'000 in the event of the worst thing happening I myself am not covered for a penny.

This is due to insurance companies not covering business owners against injury as scam artists have been rife getting liability and breaking an arm or leg or both.

Also this is a tip for those that hire 'helpers' or 'casuals' you are actually breaking the law if you don't have employee liability. (Not to mention being a total ****er if you don't insure them.)

But to cut a long story short I did learn that I am not covered to use my 40ft pole or against injuring myself.

Whats you insurance cover you for?

 

[Dave B]

This is what i am personally covered for for £14.58 a month

You will be covered for the following;

Public Liability Insurance - Hiscox Insurance will indemnify you if any party brings a claim against you for bodily injury or property damage occurring during the period of insurance, for which you are legally liable. This includes a claim against you for property damage occurring during the period of insurance and also provides cover for damage to any item being worked on, cleaned, treated or maintained by you.

Loss of Customer's Keys - Hiscox Insurance will pay the reasonable costs to replace locks, keys or passcards for your client following your loss of their keys or electronic passcards during the period of insurance. They will also pay for the sums you have to pay as compensation to your client following you loss of their keys or electronic passcards during the period of insurance.

Failure to secure a customer's premises - Hiscox Insurance will pay for the sums you have to pay as compensation to your client following your failure to secure any client’s premises where you have been carrying out your business including your failure to set any client’s intruder alarm.

Financial Loss - Hiscox Insurance will indemnify you if, during the period of insurance any party brings a claim against you in writing for financial loss.

Activities covered by this policy

You are automatically covered for ALL of the following activites for work carried out in the UK and Northern Ireland.Whilst we appreciate you may not carry out many of these activities you are automatically covered for them all at no extra cost.

Carpet & Upholstery Cleaning including soft furnishings

Commercial Property Cleaning (interior and exterior) which includes;

shops, offices, restaurants, pubs and other properties occupied by businesses

Conservatory Cleaning

Contract Cleaning

Domestic Property Cleaning (interior and exterior)

End of Tenancy Cleaning (interior and exterior)

Gutter Cleaning

Hard Floor Cleaning

Holiday Home Cleaning (including Caravans)

Kitchen Cleaning

Oven (domestic and catering only) & White Goods Cleaning

Pressure Washing to 248 bar (3,600 psi)

Solar Panel Cleaning

Window Cleaning including Soffits, Fascia and Frames

You are automatically covered to carry out any of the above activites to a maximum height of 25 metres. If you work at heights in excess of this please ring us as we can arrange a specific policy for you.

 

[Smurf]

I've never tried to claim off hiscox as I have the same cover but like any insurer I'm sure they will find a way not to have to pay out if they can. Robbing scoundrels the lot of them if you ask me.

Peace of mind my **** /emoticons/biggrin.png

 

[boarcity]

i had a chance encounter with somebod who did get a payout . he is a car park attendant who was about to give me a ticket as i was 4 minutes over

- turns out he once was a windie working for somebody else. he was using one of those folding ladders when it gave way and he was hurt.

he decided not to give me the ticket but i absolutely know because i didnt offer him a job at the end of our little chat he will never rest till he has ticketed me

 

[Green Pro Clean Ltd]

Daveyboy, from the description you have posted what you have there is your basic public liability.

There is nothing in there that covers you against loss of earnings, medical etc etc should you end up injured, it only covers the third party, ie the customer.

For a self employed chap if you want to cover you loss of earnings you need to look in to personal 'Assurance'

My 'Public liability' Is also about £150 per year through Sky Insurance

It is my 'employers liability' that cost me the the real bucks, but how would you sleep whilst one of your team lay in hospital with a broken back and you hadn't bothered to get employer liability?

Public & Employer are two totally different policies, If working solo you only need Public, if you have staff or a helper you have to get Employer.

This solar panel installer ended up paying £1600 in fine and costs

http://www.toddcue.co.uk/2013/08/sunderland-firm-fined-over-lack-of-employers-liability-insurance/

This takeaway restaurant owner ended up at over £5000 in fines and costs

https://www.internationalworkplace.com/services/news/31939/takeaway-owner-fined-for-lack-of-employers-liability-insurance

In short, even if you are an employee you should ask your boss for a look at his cover, just to make sure.

 

[Dave B]

I have money set aside for emergency use for loss of earnings etc and am solo so at the mo the cover i have suits me

Their employer cover is very good but i have no need for it at the moment

 

[Andy cherry]

Another reason to not employ ".."in my opinion

 

[Simply Business]

Hi guys,

Just to add to what's been said already:

Public liability will cover you for damage to third party property and injury to members of the public - often not including the item you are actually cleaning, e.g. if you damage something whilst carrying a ladder it will usually be covered, if you break something whilst cleaning it, it likely wont.

You'll often have to disclose whether you're working on domestic properties, commercial or both - make sure you keep this updated if work changes etc! Similarly, if you start working at a different height (i.e. over 10m, you need to let your insurer know).

Employers' liability is a legal requirement for companies with employees or using labour-only subbies. The minimum requirement by law is £5m. It's going to extend your PL onto your staff (i.e. if they cause damage etc) and will cover costs if they're injured and it's the companies fault. This will inevitably be at a greater cost, as the risk is essentially doubled (more people working, more chance of something going wrong etc?)

There are several additional covers that you can get. Inclufing Item's worked upon cover, that will - as the name suggests - cover you if you damage a window etc that you are cleaning. You can also get Lost Keys cover - again self-explanatory.

If you're looking to cover yourself should you get injured and be unable to trade, you can get Personal Accident cover. It varies place to place, but it's usually a regular weekly sum of money that covers for the period you're unable to work.

Then there's Loss of earnings cover. This can come in several forms, but essentially covers costs associated with beiung unable to trade due to damage to equipment etc.

Then of course you can cover your tools, premises etc.

The key thing to keep in mind is to always keep your insurer in the loop when anything changes to your policy, as @Green appears to have done with his broker.

Hope that helps a little? /emoticons/smile.png

 

[abs]

I cleaned the windows at Trent bridge cricket ground for many many years also did all the jetwashing of the stands too and never had any issues insurance wise, what company did you try to hire a cherry picker from ? They never even ask for your license usually never mind insurence

 

[Green Pro Clean Ltd]

UK Tool Hire, think they're over Alfreton area.

 

[windowsurfer]

Im with Hiscox insurance, seemingly in the Health and Safety regs, you only need Public liability insurance when you have close family members working with you, they are covered by your insurance and dont need Employee insurance.

http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/hse40.pdf

Does the law apply to me? You need employers’ liability insurance unless you are exempt from the Employers’ Liability (Compulsory Insurance) Act. The following employers are exempt:* ■ most public organisations including government departments and agencies, local authorities, police authorities and nationalised industries; ■ health service bodies, including National Health Service trusts, health authorities, primary care trusts and Scottish health boards; ■ some other organisations which are financed through public funds, such as passenger transport executives and magistrates’ courts committees; * Further exemptions from the need to have employers’ liability insurance are listed at section 3(1)(a) and section 3(1)(b) of the Employers’ Liability (Compulsory Insurance) Act 1969, and Schedule 2 to the 1998 Regulations.Health and Safety Executive Employers’ Liability (Compulsary Insurance) Act 1969 Page 4 of 6 ■ family businesses, ie if all of your employees are closely related to you (as husband, wife, civil partner, father, mother, grandfather, grandmother, stepfather, stepmother, son, daughter, grandson, granddaughter, stepson, stepdaughter, brother, sister, half-brother or half-sister). However, this exemption does not apply to family businesses which are incorporated as limited companies; ■ companies employing only their owner where that employee also owns 50% or more of the issued share capital in the company

 

[Green Pro Clean Ltd]

honestly you are asking questions above my paygrade you are best off to ask your insurance provider about what you are covered for would you really want to take a close family member out and let them work without them being covered against personal injuries ?

 

[Simply Business]

Hi @windowsurfer

You're absolutely right in saying that you don't NEED employers' liability by law if you're a sole trader and have a close family member working for you.

However, should any of your family member(s)cause injury to a member of the public or damage their property, you'll have no cover in place and your insurer won't cover the cost. Also, not being a ltd company, the fees would fall on you personally, and you could potentially lose personal assets.

Your family members also wouldn't be covered should they have an injury. If for example your brother was to fall from a ladder and break their back and couldn't work for years, they wouldn't receive any insurance money to aid them.

 

[windowsurfer]

Hi @windowsurfer
You're absolutely right in saying that you don't NEED employers' liability by law if you're a sole trader and have a close family member working for you.

However, should any of your family member(s)cause injury to a member of the public or damage their property, you'll have no cover in place and your insurer won't cover the cost. Also, not being a ltd company, the fees would fall on you personally, and you could potentially lose personal assets.

Your family members also wouldn't be covered should they have an injury. If for example your brother was to fall from a ladder and break their back and couldn't work for years, they wouldn't receive any insurance money to aid them.

Thank you for the information very helpful, dont understand why it seems you would be covered and you arent. So I suppose every one needs their own separate insurance, unless you have employers insurance cover.

If someone has their own insurance are they covered if they are helping you out, say for a days work.Either if they are getting paid, or if swapping a days work for a days work? Or do you need employers insurance for them? Want to keep things all above board, so appreciate the advice

What do I need to do, so any family member working with me is covered for everything they should be?

 

[Smurf]

The person/firm that you work for even if you have got your own insurance is still liable in the eyes of the law if you get hurt as they have a duty of care be it to subcontractors or employees for their safety.

 

[Simply Business]

Hi @windowsurfer,

No problem, thanks for the reply /emoticons/smile.png@Smurf is quite right, regardless of whether an individual who helps you out has their own public liability, they will still legally need to be covered by an employers' liability.

If you were using a bonafide subcontractor, then you wouldn't need to cover them under employers' liability - this is because they will already be covered by the company they work for. An exampl of a bonafide subbie, would be if a plumber used a specialist electrical firm to do the electrics on the job - they would send any given employee of the company each day, work under their own instruction, with their own tools and materials and work under their own company name.

If, as your example suggests, it is merely an extra pair of hands helping you out, they will almost certainly be classed as a labour-only sub-contractor and will need to be covered under employers' liability.

Some policies include a certain number of days worth of labour from sub-contractors, whereas others you will need to add employers liability for the period they're working and then take it off when they're finished.

Hope that helps?

 

[windowsurfer]

Hi @windowsurfer,
No problem, thanks for the reply /emoticons/smile.png@Smurf is quite right, regardless of whether an individual who helps you out has their own public liability, they will still legally need to be covered by an employers' liability.

If you were using a bonafide subcontractor, then you wouldn't need to cover them under employers' liability - this is because they will already be covered by the company they work for. An exampl of a bonafide subbie, would be if a plumber used a specialist electrical firm to do the electrics on the job - they would send any given employee of the company each day, work under their own instruction, with their own tools and materials and work under their own company name.

If, as your example suggests, it is merely an extra pair of hands helping you out, they will almost certainly be classed as a labour-only sub-contractor and will need to be covered under employers' liability.

Some policies include a certain number of days worth of labour from sub-contractors, whereas others you will need to add employers liability for the period they're working and then take it off when they're finished.

Hope that helps?

Doesn't really, if someone had their own insurance n is willingly working under their insurance when working with me, sister,wife, fellow window cleaning friend then that seems logical to me, especially in a very small business. It all sounds OTT.

I will contact my insurance provider to see what is required of me. My sister n wife will need their own insurance to apply for a window cleaning license, as that's demanded by the council's when applying for one in the areas I work in scotland, then their insurance is invalid when helping me out, so I need to get employers insurance to cover them. Insurance companies 3 points very small business 0points. Now I understand why people work by themselves.

I am all for being safe n sound n being covered, i run my work on the basis my 3 boys when of legal age may want to work with me, so I don't do any work that I think will compromise their safety, never mind mine.

Thank you for your heads upon this most important issue.

 

[Simply Business]

Unfortunately @windowsurfer it's just the way HMRC class things, regardless of whether the individual is happy to work under their own insurance - I agree it can sometimes end up being a pain for the small business owner.

You're absolutely doing the right thing by contacting your insurer and they'll appreciate the heads-up! Let us know how you get on /emoticons/smile.png

 

[windowsurfer]

Contacted my insurer- my wife and sister are covered under my public liability insurance, this covers damage to persons property. I am not a limited company.

http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/hse40.pdf

Just to requote

Does the law apply to me? You need employers’ liability insurance unless you are exempt from the Employers’ Liability (Compulsory Insurance) Act. The following employers are exempt

■ family businesses, ie if all of your employees are closely related to you (as husband, wife, civil partner, father, mother, grandfather, grandmother, stepfather, stepmother, son, daughter, grandson, granddaughter, stepson, stepdaughter, brother, sister, half-brother or half-sister)

Regarding accidents to us- we need our own individual personal accident cover to cover this.

I was informed having employers liability insurance covers accidents to employees only if equipment or I am at fault in some way. If my wife fell of the ladder due to her own misfortune/ accident and not equipment issues or some other safety issue, then it doesnt cover for this type of accident, it is only if Im gulity of negligence in some way and she can sue me.

I was informed of a incident regarding a window cleaner that chose to go against all safety advice from employer/supervisor, not to climb out a window and cross a roof, as dangerous. The window cleaner ignored advice, and fell through the roof, then confronted employer that he was going to sue him for the accident, he was promptly told he wouldnt have a leg to stand on(excuse the pun), as he ignored the safety advice to try and do a job quicker.

Quoting your comment "If, as your example suggests, it is merely an extra pair of hands helping you out, they will almost certainly be classed as a labour-only sub-contractor and will need to be covered under employers' liability."

Having my wife and sister working with me, is not just an extra pair of hands helping me out, its plainly trying to make a living. My sister has giving up a job to come and work with me to hopefully make a wage to live, not some casual job. Do not read this with any sort of "tone" just stating the fact its not some extra helping hands, but a business to make a living.

If any of this still doesnt seem to ring true, please let me know, as I need everything to be right.

Thank you

 

[Simply Business]

Hi @windowsurfer

By extra pair of hands I just meant doing the same sort of activities as you, as opposed to being specialists in another field /emoticons/smile.png Your insurers are absolutely correct that it has to be down to the negligence of yourself or because of your instruction.

If you've contacted your insurer and they've reassured you then you should be 100% fine /emoticons/smile.png

 

[abs]

Wow all this sort of stuff is boring , I can fall in a coma just thinking of insurance