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Hot Rain

Jeff Brimble

Member
Messages
93
Location
Ruthin, N.Wales.
I have an L5 but went for this during the summer heat. Costs nothing to run off the waste heat from the car rad system.

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I like to try things before reccomending them so that will be the spring /emoticons/smile.png I got on very well last winter with just bringing in containers and storing overnight next to rads, temp about 25 degrees. but over the summer I had an itch to try storage water on a bigger scale so found these and fitted them, bleeding the car rad system was a slightly difficult, But I now have mulled wine on tap for Christmas.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/NARROWBOAT-AND-MARINE-calorifier-/180875242570?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_BoatEquipment_Accessories_SM&hash=item2a1d012c4a

The thing is now that I have done it, I have realised just how much heat a car engine wastes, we are messing about with Windmills but have millions of vehicles on the raod, if only someone could capture that waste we could almost run a couple of power stations with it, its enormous.

Current tank temp at 6.15pm Sat is 28 C check back tomoz and I will post the morning temp.

The immersion raises the water temp by 1 degree in 1 min.

1"BSP fittings for the tank or plastic equiv. a pair of taps for the car rad in and out - so that the whole thing can be taken out. Welded bracket anchored to the seat belt fixings. Enough space above it to be able to put water in the top.I pump from the IBC. Cut the car hose and insert "T" s to circulate round the cylinder then bleed. I did think about putting a thermo tap on the in side but it was an extra £30 so make do with turning the tap on for 20 min or so when the engine is hot. Water stays warm all day as does the car.100 degress F is the hotest I have used temp taken at the top with a fish tank thermometer, the tap at the bottom (Supply)of the cylinder is far cooler.

When I get home I top up the cylinder and theres usually enough warm water to stay warm till the next morning.

The downside for the majority that are not water efficient is, that it holds approz 50-60 litres so not for the guys that use 2L per minute. I use approx 40 litres per day so its been designed for my useage. But you could buy larger cylinders for more money and running costs etc.

 
Thought I might be seeing that on here! Jeff, you're a genius! Just to clarify, is the idea just for the day usage, or do you expect it to handle freezing nights to protect hoses etc?

 
Hi Jeff,

I have a Wabesto diesel hot water heater with 2 plate heat exchangers which I having been planning to fit in my van for the last 3 years.

I have thought of coupling this Wabesto up to a calorifier like this and using it the other way round. A calorifier has an internal heat exchanger that is coupled to the vehicle's cooling system and this is how the cold water in the calorifier is heated. But I want to heat the water up in calorifier with my diesel heater so it becomes the heat source. The idea was to pump my wfp water through the internal heat exchanger which would heat the water going to my pole.

However, none of the manufacturers of these things will commit to their internal heat exchangers being efficient enough to work this way round. At a flow rate of 2 litres per minute I guess it would be asking a bit much.

I don't want to heat the water much, I just want the hoses a little more supple during the winter cold, that's all. The other solution is to plumb the whole heater into the van mount and just heat the water a few degrees for that day.

Spruce

 
one down side to storing and heating water like this is high risk of legionnaires disease. anything over 20ºC the bacteria grows.

good idea tho,

Causes of Legionnaires’ disease

Legionella bacteria is commonly found (often in low numbers) in sources of water, such as rivers, lakes and other area that water is stored. The bacteria sometimes find their way into artificial water supply systems such as:

  • air conditioning systems
  • hot and cold water services
  • cooling towers


Given the right conditions, legionella bacteria can rapidly spread and contaminate these water systems.

Large buildings, such as hotels, hospitals, museums and office blocks, are more vulnerable to legionella contamination because they have larger, more complex water supply systems in which legionella contamination can quickly spread.

There are strict regulations regarding the maintenance and control of water supply systems, such as either keeping the water cooled below 20ºC (68ºF) or heated above 60ºC (140ºF) to prevent an outbreak of Legionnaires’ disease.

See Legionnaires’ disease - causes for more information about where legionella bacteria can be found and how they can spread.

 
I might have known you'd come up with that! /emoticons/smile.png
well it can kill people and sperading it about on customers house too isnt good! its just something to be aware of!

you can get it in your static ro systems too!

daughters in hospital with problems, and i have asked the doctors to test her for it as all her symptom's are the same as legionnaires and im not even storing warm water!

 
Does storing in the ibc outside pose a threat?
any water being stored can be a threat. even the water from air conditioning systems. the ro systems dont get rid of the bacteria from the water, so if the water reaches between 20ºC - 60ºC thats the perfect growing temp for it.

its not to bad if you using the water and getting rid of all the water each day, but it can still grow in small amounts.

 
Temp at 8.15am this bright and sunny morning (Air temp 2C) was 24C so the insulation works fine.

worries of Leggionaires has cropped up approx 3 times over the last two years on a few forums. I do a fair bit of LA work. 18months ago - After refering it upstairs my county EHO gave me a reply over the phone that he considered window cleaning using wfp was a low risk (he didnt want to come from his cosy office and test my water) he suggested that I change my water on a weekly basis (I do, daily) and keep it between 20 and 35C after reading RCP link I note that car windscreen washers are at more risk of developing Leg. but if you readers add screenwash then it cancels it out, so for those that are worried stick a bit of screenwash in your water or IBC.Over the last year I have been devloping my own spot reducer additive that will take care of Leg. I havent heard of any w/cers getting Leg. in the last 12 years ?

I sincerely hope your daughter makes a full recovery RCP /emoticons/smile.png

24 hrs later, 6.15 Sunday Air temp 8C tank temp 22C

 
Thinking on a bit more, is Leg. an airborn or waterborn bacteria/virus ? If you float a coating over the water film of your IBC maybe that would keep the two apart ? possible an oil like lavender, or a gas like CO2 or just a few drops of Milton " to get to the parts that other cleaners fail to reach" /emoticons/biggrin.png or a dash of Ecover ?

 
What kind of volume can you get away with Jeff? I've used ecover in wfp a few times with no obvious drawbacks, but screen wash, oils etc I've never ventured down!

 
Thinking on a bit more, is Leg. an airborn or waterborn bacteria/virus ? If you float a coating over the water film of your IBC maybe that would keep the two apart ? possible an oil like lavender, or a gas like CO2 or just a few drops of Milton " to get to the parts that other cleaners fail to reach" /emoticons/biggrin.png or a dash of Ecover ?
take it you havent looked into it then.

as most guys use tap water for it there less risk it that than rain water harvesting.

it is carried in the water and breeds in it, then it is is transported in the air, when sprayed out of the pole the bacteria can be carried upto 500ms in the air. so its both.

The bacteria thrives in a range of temperatures between 25-45oC, but does indeed survive at lower temperature, but is dormant at around 20oC. As with most bacteria it requires a moist, if not aqueous environment. So the focus for the regulations has been centered around hot water systems, such as showers, heating and hot tubes. But also ventilation systems, whereby water is used as the indirect heat source.

Legionellosis infection normally occurs after inhaling an aerosol (suspension of fine particles in air) containing Legionella bacteria. Such particles could originate from any infected water source. When mechanical action, such a toilet flushing or garden sprinklers, breaks the surface of water, small water droplets are formed, which evaporate very quickly. If these droplets contain bacteria, the bacteria cells remain suspended in the air, invisible to the naked eye but small enough to be inhaled into the lungs. This often occurs in poorly ventilated areas such as unventilated bathrooms and cloakrooms where the flushing action of the toilet can spread it throughout the entire room, infecting anyone not immune to the strain of bacteria. Potential sources of such contaminated water include central air conditioning systems, hot water systems, showers, whirlpool spas and poorly designed rainwater harvesting systems.

Which Rainwater Harvesting Systems are Most at Risk?

In order to avoid the risk of Legionnaires Disease, you must avoid the two factors that contribute most to the breeding of the bacteria:

  • Stagnant water
  • Tepid or warm water


Rainwater harvesting systems that switch to mains water directly in the house when the water in the tank is low leave a small amount of water in the tank which stagnates, increasing the risks when the tank supply recommences. The best and safest systems keep the water in the tank fresh by adding more water to the tank, not by-passing it by feeding mains water straight to the appliances.

If the tank is too large for the rate of water use then stagnation can also occur due to the increased retention time.

Underground rainwater harvesting tanks keep the water much cooler than above ground tanks, particularly in summer. In a sunny position, it is not unusual to find water in an above ground tank with a temperature of 35 degrees C - the OPTIMUM breeding temperature for Legionella pneumophila. AVOID ABOVE GROUND TANKS if at all possible.

As the risks are so serious and oversized tanks were being sold by some 'Rainwater Harvesting' companies, the British Standards Institute brought out a new standard for rainwater harvesting, the BS 8515 2009. This stipulates the maximum size for the tank, depending on use, but many companies are ignoring it. Insist that the tank is sized according to BS 8515 2009.

 
Temp at 8.15 this bright and sunny morning (Air temp 2C) was 24C so the insulation works fine.

worries of Leggionaires has cropped up approx 3 times over the last two years on a few forums. I do a fair bit of LA work. 18months ago - After refering it upstairs my county EHO gave me a reply over the phone that he considered window cleaning using wfp was a low risk (he didnt want to come from his cosy office and test my water) he suggested that I change my water on a weekly basis (I do, daily) and keep it between 20 and 35C after reading RCP link I note that car windscreen washers are at more risk of developing Leg. but if you readers add screenwash then it cancels it out, so for those that are worried stick a bit of screenwash in your water or IBC.Over the last year I have been devloping my own spot reducer additive that will take care of Leg. I havent heard of any w/cers getting Leg. in the last 12 years ?

I sincerely hope your daughter makes a full recovery RCP /emoticons/smile.png
to clear any risk you would have to clean out all water and use checmicals to make sure its gone, if any water is left in that could just carry the disease that would just trasnfer it to the new water. keeping the water between 20-35 is the worst thing you can do as this is the optimum growing temp for it.

the safe temps are below 20 and above 66.

The bacteria is found widely in low concentrations throughout natural water systems such as rivers and ponds but temperature and stagnancy are critical to its growth and it is in the tepid and warm static water of artificial water systems that it can really thrive, forming a biofilm or layer of living bacteria over artificial structures so the sides of any thank, filters. an RO is a high rish area of this to breed in,

yer cheers for that, im just hoping its not this thats caused it and that it is something else.

 
Cheers for that info RC, I might have to rethink my plans for collection after reading it cos it wasn't something I'd even thought of.

Interesting thread Jeff by the way.

 
Cheers for that info RC, I might have to rethink my plans for collection after reading it cos it wasn't something I'd even thought of.

Interesting thread Jeff by the way.
as long as you keep it clean and under control it should be ok, keeping in a shaded area would help keep temps down,

 

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