U coming up on Varistream

[GC window cleaning]

I have two batteries in my van which i alternate to connect up to my system. Today it started to cut off and show U. I understand it is due to my batteries running below 10.5v. I charged them up this morning but have already run down after a couple of cleans. Is this due to the cold? One of the batteries is only 6 months old and 115ah. Any suggestions please?

 

[Tuffers]

@spruce will be along to answer the question shortly :thumbsup:

 

[spruce]

I have two batteries in my van which i alternate to connect up to my system. Today it started to cut off and show U. I understand it is due to my batteries running below 10.5v. I charged them up this morning but have already run down after a couple of cleans. Is this due to the cold? One of the batteries is only 6 months old and 115ah. Any suggestions please?

Hi

You are right. U means that the battery has dropped to 10.3v under load.

If you are having the same problem with both batteries then there is a likelihood that you have a bad connection somewhere between the battery and the Varistream.

So the first port of call is the connectors at the battery. Are they good? I hate those crocodile clips and had no end of trouble with them. Once I replaced them with proper battery terminals I had few issues.

Then you need to look at the fuse holder on the positive to the Varistream (if you have one) and check that there is not a bad connection where the fuse pushes into the holder. Then check the cable joiners from the battery cable that join up with the Varistream cables. If you are running an earth through the chassis from the Varistream those connectors at both the Varistream end and the negative battery terminal to chassis need to be good.

Then check the fuse holder between the Varistream and the pump. Have you removed the pumps pressure switch from the circuit? The instructions that come with the controller specify that you do that.

I would also unscrew the cover of the Varistream and check the terminal connector onto the PC board. If one of the terminals are burnt then you may get away with a new plug.

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Is it possible to run a couple of cables from the van's battery (positive and negative) and see if that sorts the problem out? If that does then the battery is suspect. But 2 battery issues together is unlikely although not impossible. You will be able to work a full day using the van's battery and still have enough power to start the van in the afternoon at the end of the day.

If you are using the latest Varistream they do consume current even when switched off. We discovered that an 85 amph battery lost 25% of its charge over a week lying idle.

Fitting a 20 amp on off isolator switch solved the problem. Just switch it off last house and switch it back first clean the next day. Its fitted on the positive battery cable just before the Varistream.

LAP 1-Gang 2-Way 20AX Switch

If you just had one battery then the chances are that your problem is battery related despite its age.

Leisure batteries need to be charged with a leisure battery charger. Car battery chargers don't do such a good job. They also need to be charged regularly. A leisure battery lasts if it never drops below 50% discharge and is recharged asap. In winter I charge mine every night and in summer once every 2nd night. A leisure battery left discharged for any length of time will not recover.

If you fully charge your battery and take it to a branch of Halfords, they can put a tester on it to see the battery's condition.

In the cold a battery looses about 25% of it capacity. So a 110 amph battery is good for 82 amps. If your battery is sitting on the cold van floor then a suggestion is to fit some sort of insulation under it. It won't solve your current problem but it will help long term.

The first 110 amp leisure battery I had in my van lasted just over 3 years. It was a cheaper Orange by name and colour battery bought at a caravan outlet. The same make but 85 amph was fitted to son's van and that lasted nearly 4 years. Both were replaced with Numax; mine lasted nearly 4 years and sons is 6 years old. My current battery is a Oldham Leisure 110 and is just 2 years old.

We have split charge relays on both vans but don't do enough mileage to fully recharge them each day from the van's alternator.

.

 

[spruce]

I thought about this last night after I posted the above.

I noticed the expression "I charged them up this morning". How long did it take you to charge them up?

If they are charging up quickly from being flat (discharged) then the battery has lost capacity and needs replacing.

If you have a new 110 amph leisure battery and it was discharged to 25%, this would mean that your charger needs to replace +80 amps back into the battery to fully charge it again.

If you have a 10 amp charger it will take 8 hours to charge that battery according to the maths. However, as a battery gets more and more charge it only accepts a much lower charge rate. So in actuality your battery should take much longer than 8 hours to fully charge.

.

 

[GC window cleaning]

I thought about this last night after I posted the above.
I noticed the expression "I charged them up this morning". How long did it take you to charge them up?

If they are charging up quickly from being flat (discharged) then the battery has lost capacity and needs replacing.

If you have a new 110 amph leisure battery and it was discharged to 25%, this would mean that your charger needs to replace +80 amps back into the battery to fully charge it again.

If you have a 10 amp charger it will take 8 hours to charge that battery according to the maths. However, as a battery gets more and more charge it only accepts a much lower charge rate. So in actuality your battery should take much longer than 8 hours to fully charge.

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Thanks alot for your help. I have two chargers. The main one I use is the halfords fully automatic battery charger. Can either switch it for seal or standard battery type?? Has a leisure sign on it so hopefully its man enough for the job. The spare one I have is a 6amp smart charger.

Another thing I have learned today is that you should use 1/2 inch hose when using varistream monitors but i have 6mm microbore on my reel. Was advised by Cleaning Spot to have no more than 60 metres as it takes to much power to push the water through the small 6mm so have reduced my hose length as this may be eating up my power as well. Gonna get one of those two way switches and order battery clamps instead of the crocodile clips and see what happens. Thanks again for assistance. :thumbsup:

 

[spruce]

Thanks alot for your help. I have two chargers. The main one I use is the halfords fully automatic battery charger. Can either switch it for seal or standard battery type?? Has a leisure sign on it so hopefully its man enough for the job. The spare one I have is a 6amp smart charger.
Another thing I have learned today is that you should use 1/2 inch hose when using varistream monitors but i have 6mm microbore on my reel. Was advised by Cleaning Spot to have no more than 60 metres as it takes to much power to push the water through the small 6mm so have reduced my hose length as this may be eating up my power as well. Gonna get one of those two way switches and order battery clamps instead of the crocodile clips and see what happens. Thanks again for assistance. :thumbsup:

There are dozens of microbore users with Shurflo pumps and Varistream or Spring controllers. They aren't having issues with flat batteries after a short time out working.

Years ago Williamson pumps would not guarantee any Shurflo used on minibore or microbore hose. They specified that 1/2" hose was the only size suitable for those pumps. 40 meters of 1/2" hose on a reel was a nightmare to use. This was one of the reasons I went minibore and took on my own warranty. In those days the Shurflo pump's pressure switch was set at 65psi. Then Shurflo pumps jumped to 100 psi so I never did figure out if the increase of pressure was a result of small bore hose sizes or not.

Yes it takes a little more current to drive water through a smaller bore hose, but not that much. You have a 10 amp inline fuse. If the pump draws more than that, the fuse will blow.

So a fully charged 110 amp battery should last 11 hours with the motor drawing 10 amps. I think Cleaning Spot spun you a story to get rid of the problem in the same way window manufacturers blame wfp for blown double glazing. Sorry.

A local window cleaner has microbore hoses on both his reels, Varistreams and Shurflo pumps. He has run that setup for the past 6 or 7 years. He has 2 batteries. One he leaves on charge all day and the other goes with his van. They are swapped over the next day. He has never experienced your symptoms.

He once told me that his 3 year old battery wasn't quite lasting the day a while back and was replaced.

We have another using microbore with Purefreedom (Spring) controllers, and has also been using this setup for as long as I have.

.

 

[Tuffers]

While you're on-line @spruce, my battery is reading 15 amps on the multi meter, and that's after the van has been parked on the drive for half an hour.

 

[spruce]

While you're on-line @spruce, my battery is reading 15 amps on the multi meter, and that's after the van has been parked on the drive for half an hour.

Sorry @Tuffers. I'm confused. Amps are the amount of current an item, ie pump needs to be supplied at to run. At a preset flow on our controllers, our Shurflo pumps will draw between 3.5 and 5.0 amps to supply our brush with the flow of water we need. Once you switch the pump off the amps drop to zero but the voltage is still there.

https://www.quora.com/Whats-the-difference-between-amps-watts-and-volts

So I'm not sure what you have on your Multimeter. There are 2 Volt settings on the dial, one with a straight line next to it (VDC - volts direct current - we use that setting) and V with a wave line next to it (for alternating current - VAC- we don't use that.)

If its a leisure battery then it should be fairly close to its charge voltage after 1/2 an hour. Your van's alternator shouldn't be charging the battery at 15v. The highest voltage my van generates with a fully charged leisure battery is 14.6v with the engine running.

My leisure battery took a bit of a hammering today. The van was stood in one place all day. Going home the alternator was pushing in around 8 amps at 14.2/14.3 volts. It sat at that for the12 miles home.

.

 

[Tuffers]

Sorry @Tuffers. I'm confused. Amps are the amount of current an item, ie pump needs to be supplied at to run. At a preset flow on our controllers, our Shurflo pumps will draw between 3.5 and 5.0 amps to supply our brush with the flow of water we need. Once you switch the pump off the amps drop to zero.
So I'm not sure what you have on your Multimeter. There are 2 Volt settings on the dial, one with a straight line next to it (VDC - we use that setting) and V with a wave line next to it (for alternating current - we don't use that.)

If its a leisure battery then it should be fairly close to its charge voltage after 1/2 an hour. Your van's alternator shouldn't be charging the battery at 15v. The highest voltage my van generates with a fully charged leisure battery is 14.6v with the engine running.

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Sorry spruce I meant volts.

 

[spruce]

Sorry spruce I meant volts.

15 volts for a standing leisure battery seems very high.

 

[Tuffers]

15 volts for a standing leisure battery seems very high.

That's what I thought. I'll take reading off it in a minute.

 

[Tuffers]

15 volts for a standing leisure battery seems very high.

That's what I thought. I'll take reading off it in a minute.

 

[spruce]

That's what I thought. I'll take reading off it in a minute.

Getting the right leads plugged into the right connectors can make things interesting. I always have to consult the instruction manual.

Back in the seventies I bought a simple multimeter that had/still has a needle to point to the voltage. Still pretty accurate. It also has other settings for setting the dwell angle for 4, 6 and 8 cylinder engines. /emoticons/biggrin.png But its easy to use as the positive and negative cables are fixed.

Oh for the good old days. Things were much simpler. /emoticons/wink.png

.

 

[Tuffers]

Getting the right leads plugged into the right connectors can make things interesting. I always have to consulate the instruction manual.
Back in the seventies I bought a simple multimeter that had/still has a needle to point to the voltage. Still pretty accurate. It also has other settings for setting the dwell angle for 4, 6 and 8 cylinder engines. /emoticons/biggrin.png But its easy to use as the positive and negative cables are fixed.

.

This is odd. My multimeter is a Draper digital one. My first reading read 14.1, I tested it again and it went up to 14.3, I tried it several more times and the highest it went to was 15.3 or even more, I can't remember. The van had been sat for about half an hour. I do about 100 miles a day and my controller is rigged with a split relay charger via a 12v socket in the rear of the van.

 

[spruce]

This is odd. My multimeter is a Draper digital one. My first reading read 14.1, I tested it again and it went up to 14.3, I tried it several more times and the highest it went to was 15.3 or even more, I can't remember. The van had been sat for about half an hour. I do about 100 miles a day and my controller is rigged with a split relay charger via a 12v socket in the rear of the van.

Do you know anyone nearby who also has a MM? Maybe that one of yours is faulty. The battery voltage should drop very quickly once the scr breaks the connection between the batteries.

The charger on mine is now charging at 14.0 volts 1.8 amps. I switched the charger off and within 1 minute the charge had dissipated and the voltage across the terminals was 13.3 volts. After another minute the reading was down to 13.1 volts. If I left it the reading would be down to around 12.6v in a couple of hours as the battery isn't fully charged yet.

 

[NoName]

Do you know anyone nearby who also has a MM? Maybe that one of yours is faulty. The battery voltage should drop very quickly once the scr breaks the connection between the batteries.The charger on mine is now charging at 14.0 volts 1.8 amps. I switched the charger off and within 1 minute the charge had dissipated and the voltage across the terminals was 13.3 volts. After another minute the reading was down to 13.1 volts. If I left it the reading would be down to around 12.6v in a couple of hours as the battery isn't fully charged yet.

Hi Spruce

You're obviously da'man on all things battery...I've got a van mounted system (grippatank) for approx. 3 yrs with a repeat leisure battery running flat issue. In the last 3 years I've replaced the leisure battery each year - and it's now failing again (not lasting a full day). I replace it and it last approx. a year, then starts to fail again. Sounds like they should last 3+ years rather than 1??

I've got a split charger from my van (vario) battery charging it and do 50-60 miles a day ~10 stops with 1~10 miles (typically) between each house.

What do you suspect is the root cause? I'm wondering if my van battery (5-6 yrs) is the cause and somehow robs the charge from the leisure batteries - causing them fail over time?

Chap at Halfords checked the van battery with his tester and grumbled he didn't really know how to interrupt results - though it rated it at "80% " with a 'replace' comment ??

what do you reckon shall I get the van's battery replaced and would this mean longer life from my leisure batteries (longer than a year!)

 

[spruce]

Hi Spruce
You're obviously da'man on all things battery...I've got a van mounted system (grippatank) for approx. 3 yrs with a repeat leisure battery running flat issue. In the last 3 years I've replaced the leisure battery each year - and it's now failing again (not lasting a full day). I replace it and it last approx. a year, then starts to fail again. Sounds like they should last 3+ years rather than 1??

I've got a split charger from my van (vario) battery charging it and do 50-60 miles a day ~10 stops with 1~10 miles (typically) between each house.

What do you suspect is the root cause? I'm wondering if my van battery (5-6 yrs) is the cause and somehow robs the charge from the leisure batteries - causing them fail over time?

Chap at Halfords checked the van battery with his tester and grumbled he didn't really know how to interrupt results - though it rated it at "80% " with a 'replace' comment ??

what do you reckon shall I get the van's battery replaced and would this mean longer life from my leisure batteries (longer than a year!)

Hi @NoName.

I can only suggest answers based on my experience. The trouble is that everyone's work is different so its probably not possible to give a blanket answer - a one size fits all answer.

I'm presuming the Vivaro is an older model that doesn't have a smart alternator with regenerative charging. (Your van battery is 5 - 6 years old being the clue.)

There are 2 types of split charge relay.

The first is a basic relay (SCR) that requires a current to trigger it. It is usually from a wire to the alternator or from the ignition.

The second is a voltage sensing relay (VSR) which only has a single wire from the van battery to the relay.

You can tell them apart as the SCR has 4 wires connected to it and the VSR has 3.

These battery separators will break the circuit between the two batteries when you start your van, so no power will be drawn from your leisure battery during this process. So in theory the condition of your van's battery (its age) will not effect the longevity of your leisure battery.

The relay or battery isolator Grippa sell is a VSR.

PART ONLY - 12v / 24v Intelligent Split Charge Relay 100amp | GrippaTank Ltd

We have only used 85 amph leisure batteries on our single operator vans and 110 amph on my twin operator van.

If Grippa sold you the system complete then I'm sure they sold you the right setup for the job. However, Grippa are great (or were great) believers that a SCR will keep your leisure battery fully charged, especially doing the mileage you are doing. But I'm not convinced of this.

We spend much less time on the road than you do a day and I find it necessary to put the leisure battery on overnight charge every second evening in summer and every evening in winter.

A typical example of our system working was this week. I started the day off on Monday with a fully charged leisure battery on my van. I didn't bother to put the battery on charge on Monday night as we had to travel down to Sheffield and recover my car that suffered a snapped front coil spring over the weekend. The trip was 110 miles each way. According to my volt/amp gauge the leisure battery was still receiving a small charge of an amp after the 1 and 3/4 hour journey. It was fully charged when we got home than evening.

So if you are relying on the alternator to keep your leisure battery fully charged, my experience is that it won't. (Other's say they have never charged their batteries since fitting a SCR.) I have a Numax 10amp intelligent charger for motorhomes and have used that for the past 5 years. I just plug it in so I don't have to take the battery out of the van to do it. I'm fortunate as I park my van on the drive way,

In the early days I used a starter battery charger. I went through a battery a year. But the battery was on a trailer and exposed to the elements so that could have had a bearing on the situation.

.