LPG Advice Please.

I have spoken to one of my local caravan boiler specialists today, I want 2 boilers putting in my van.

I could do it myself no issues, except I want it done safely and with a certificate to say so.

What spec boilers do I need? Just asking so I dont go in there without any knowledge, I want to sound like I know a bit about it.

I need two of them, I think I read 6l or 9l, not sure?

paul alan said:

I have spoken to one of my local caravan boiler specialists today, I want 2 boilers putting in my van.

I could do it myself no issues, except I want it done safely and with a certificate to say so.

What spec boilers do I need? Just asking so I dont go in there without any knowledge, I want to sound like I know a bit about it.

I need two of them, I think I read 6l or 9l, not sure?

Click to expand...

What did the caravan boiler specialist say to you with regard to the regulations for caravans?

There are no regulations that cover fitting gas boilers to window cleaning vans. The best is to follow the regulations with regard to fitting gas boilers to motorhomes, caravans or catering vans.

The regulations are strict when it comes to domestic gas appliances, but all that is required for everything else is that the system be fitted and inspected by a "competent" person(s). There is no definition of what determines a person competency. If things go wrong and there is an explosion caused by a gas leak, then you will have to answer to whatever authorities question your competence.

I would guess that a few of the things he said were that the gas bottle and regulator should be outside the living/sleeping area and that the boiler should be properly vented to the outside. He should also have said that there must be a permanently open vent hole drilled in the floor of the van to allow any leaking gas to escape outside. There should also be a on/off gas tap on the gas line to the boiler which must be shut off when travelling (which translates to moving the van.) He may have also said that copper pipe should be used for the main gas supply run as that is the marine application regs with restricted lengths of flexible gas tube at the gas and appliance ends.

Lots of useful info here.

https://www.pbo.co.uk/expert-advice/check-your-boats-gas-system-19785

Caravans have their gas bottles on the drawbar outside the habitation area. Motorhomes have a sealed compartment only accessible from the outside or there are gas bottle lockers you can buy that could be used inside with a sealed closing door.

Gas-it do a range or vapour tanks that can be fitted either inside or underneath the van with an external filler for refilling at petrol stations that also sell gas.

This company will be better to advise what you need to be safe and do offer certificates of safe installation. But its not the same certificate as a gas supplier issues on domestic appliances as these fitters only need a certicate themselves that they are competent fitters not Corgi (or whatever it is now) trained.

You also need to ensure your van insurer is happy to insure your van with a gas installation. When I asked my insurer about 8 years ago they advised that they would teminate my insurance if I fitted gas.

Your needing 2 boilers indicates that you will have a second cleaner using hot as well. This adds to the complications as your competency in fitting the system must include a second person's safety. You have to ensure that your employee has a safe working environment to work in.

Your gas bottle and regulator needs to be able to support the addition supply of gas going to both those boilers. When the liquid gas in the bottle turns to gas vapour it gets very cold. The faster you draw gas the colder the top of the bottle will get. In extreme cases everything with freeze up. (Back in the early 1960's Zambia had strict fuel rationing when Rhodesia declared independence and the border between the 2 countries was closed for imports into Zambia. Some tried to run their cars on LPG gas with a pipe into the carburetor. They experience freezing gas cylinders on 'long' journeys. Some tried to fit a hot water coil around the gas cylinder supplied from the cars cooling system.)

I'm not an advocate of using small gas boilers that have no provision to vent through the exhaust through the roof. (This is a requirement on catering vans.) Leaving a van door open isn't good practice IMHO. If a gust of wind blows the door shut then this can very quickly become a major incident. Next to a sliding side door would be better as that is locked in place open and not influenced by gusts of wind. During the combustion process these heaters do also give off water vapour in their exhaust which will create condensation issues.

I don't know which boilers you are referring to, just 6 or 9 liters. If these are standard supply on demand tankless heaters then 6 liters is about right. The ones Peter Fogwell (nick named the Fogwash by window cleaners) used to sell were 6lpm and would ignite at around 1 to 1.5lpm of flow. The 8lpm ones that are popular on Ebay need the water flow to be much higher to guarantee a continious flame. Some users seemed to get these to work fine and others not. The faster the water flow the quicker your 650 liter tank will empty. (I know that's logical but a faster flow means more 'waste' water scrubbing the window before rinsing.)

Personally, I would seriously consider a twin operator diesel heater - much more expensive but safer.

Thank you spruce for taking the time to write such a comprehensive reply, you should be charging for advice like that.

Diesel heaters are just way too expensive for what they do, I have hummed and harred over them for a while now and cannot justify the price to myself.

I think Grippa must be making a fortune, I cant help thinking that I can have the same outcome for much cheaper if I look around.

I'm going to the workshop on Friday to speak to the team there and see what they have to say, if they can convince me they can safely install a reliable working set-up and the price is right I may just go ahead with it.

I like the idea of having an external fill port for the LPG on the van and its own tank fitted, I have heard about these before.

paul alan said:

Thank you spruce for taking the time to write such a comprehensive reply, you should be charging for advice like that.

Diesel heaters are just way too expensive for what they do, I have hummed and harred over them for a while now and cannot justify the price to myself.

I think Grippa must be making a fortune, I cant help thinking that I can have the same outcome for much cheaper if I look around.

I'm going to the workshop on Friday to speak to the team there and see what they have to say, if they can convince me they can safely install a reliable working set-up and the price is right I may just go ahead with it.

I like the idea of having an external fill port for the LPG on the van and its own tank fitted, I have heard about these before.

Click to expand...

The suppliers like Grippa aren't making big bucks on their heaters. Webasto are. If you look at the cost of diesel air heaters from China and the equivalent Eberspacher ones the Chinese have copied and compare prices you will find a big difference.Somehow the Germans expect you to pay for German manufactured excellence because its made in Germany, probably with components manufactured in China or other countries that at one time where behind the 'iron curtain'.

Also the cost of fabrication enclosures for these systems aren't cheap. The cost of these water to water plate heat exchangers are high as well which all adds to the cost.

I would consider a 2kw electric heating element in my tank before going the gas route tbh.

? I see you got an instant response from Dazmond and Dave Willis on the other forum as I expected you would @paul alan

spruce said:

The suppliers like Grippa aren't making big bucks on their heaters. Webasto are. If you look at the cost of diesel air heaters from China and the equivalent Eberspacher ones the Chinese have copied and compare prices you will find a big difference.Somehow the Germans expect you to pay for German manufactured excellence because its made in Germany, probably with components manufactured in China or other countries that at one time where behind the 'iron curtain'.

Also the cost of fabrication enclosures for these systems aren't cheap. The cost of these water to water plate heat exchangers are high as well which all adds to the cost.

I would consider a 2kw electric heating element in my tank before going the gas route tbh.

Click to expand...

I have a 3kw all hooked on a 16 amp supply, its been on for 12 hours overnight. The best I can expect is warm water at the brush today.

paul alan said:

I have a 3kw all hooked on a 16 amp supply, its been on for 12 hours overnight. The best I can expect is warm water at the brush today.

Click to expand...

This is interesting to hear. Our friend Nathankaye says his is much hotter. Someone said recently his was 'concrete melting hot' using a 2kw element. ?

spruce said:

This is interesting to hear. Our friend Nathankaye says his is much hotter. Someone said recently his was 'concrete melting hot' using a 2kw element. ?

Click to expand...

I think Nathan has a 500ltr tank but, I think he must not of been filling the tank to full whilst heating. I think he has some water left at the end of the day with heat in, so adding temperature to the next fill.

Can be the only the only explanation.

spruce said:

This is interesting to hear. Our friend Nathankaye says his is much hotter. Someone said recently his was 'concrete melting hot' using a 2kw element. ?

Click to expand...

Imagine that the house melting but not the pvc windows. 

paul alan said:

I have a 3kw all hooked on a 16 amp supply, its been on for 12 hours overnight. The best I can expect is warm water at the brush today.

Click to expand...

I have thought about a 2kw fitted direct to my 325l tank, think some heat their Ibc/storage tanks first.  

spruce said:

What did the caravan boiler specialist say to you with regard to the regulations for caravans?

There are no regulations that cover fitting gas boilers to window cleaning vans. The best is to follow the regulations with regard to fitting gas boilers to motorhomes, caravans or catering vans.

The regulations are strict when it comes to domestic gas appliances, but all that is required for everything else is that the system be fitted and inspected by a "competent" person(s). There is no definition of what determines a person competency. If things go wrong and there is an explosion caused by a gas leak, then you will have to answer to whatever authorities question your competence.

I would guess that a few of the things he said were that the gas bottle and regulator should be outside the living/sleeping area and that the boiler should be properly vented to the outside. He should also have said that there must be a permanently open vent hole drilled in the floor of the van to allow any leaking gas to escape outside. There should also be a on/off gas tap on the gas line to the boiler which must be shut off when travelling (which translates to moving the van.) He may have also said that copper pipe should be used for the main gas supply run as that is the marine application regs with restricted lengths of flexible gas tube at the gas and appliance ends.

Lots of useful info here.

https://www.pbo.co.uk/expert-advice/check-your-boats-gas-system-19785

Caravans have their gas bottles on the drawbar outside the habitation area. Motorhomes have a sealed compartment only accessible from the outside or there are gas bottle lockers you can buy that could be used inside with a sealed closing door.

Gas-it do a range or vapour tanks that can be fitted either inside or underneath the van with an external filler for refilling at petrol stations that also sell gas.

This company will be better to advise what you need to be safe and do offer certificates of safe installation. But its not the same certificate as a gas supplier issues on domestic appliances as these fitters only need a certicate themselves that they are competent fitters not Corgi (or whatever it is now) trained.

You also need to ensure your van insurer is happy to insure your van with a gas installation. When I asked my insurer about 8 years ago they advised that they would teminate my insurance if I fitted gas.

Your needing 2 boilers indicates that you will have a second cleaner using hot as well. This adds to the complications as your competency in fitting the system must include a second person's safety. You have to ensure that your employee has a safe working environment to work in.

Your gas bottle and regulator needs to be able to support the addition supply of gas going to both those boilers. When the liquid gas in the bottle turns to gas vapour it gets very cold. The faster you draw gas the colder the top of the bottle will get. In extreme cases everything with freeze up. (Back in the early 1960's Zambia had strict fuel rationing when Rhodesia declared independence and the border between the 2 countries was closed for imports into Zambia. Some tried to run their cars on LPG gas with a pipe into the carburetor. They experience freezing gas cylinders on 'long' journeys. Some tried to fit a hot water coil around the gas cylinder supplied from the cars cooling system.)

I'm not an advocate of using small gas boilers that have no provision to vent through the exhaust through the roof. (This is a requirement on catering vans.) Leaving a van door open isn't good practice IMHO. If a gust of wind blows the door shut then this can very quickly become a major incident. Next to a sliding side door would be better as that is locked in place open and not influenced by gusts of wind. During the combustion process these heaters do also give off water vapour in their exhaust which will create condensation issues.

I don't know which boilers you are referring to, just 6 or 9 liters. If these are standard supply on demand tankless heaters then 6 liters is about right. The ones Peter Fogwell (nick named the Fogwash by window cleaners) used to sell were 6lpm and would ignite at around 1 to 1.5lpm of flow. The 8lpm ones that are popular on Ebay need the water flow to be much higher to guarantee a continious flame. Some users seemed to get these to work fine and others not. The faster the water flow the quicker your 650 liter tank will empty. (I know that's logical but a faster flow means more 'waste' water scrubbing the window before rinsing.)

Personally, I would seriously consider a twin operator diesel heater - much more expensive but safer.

Click to expand...

Very sound and reasonable advice ?

hi @paul alanI did look at your post on the other forum-don't often go there but its an entertaining read at best.

if it were me, in the situation you are in re coastal cleaning and sometimes need another hand I would without a doubt go for a 5kw diesel heater, I know some will say i'm wrong but,

if you keep at the immersion heater route and lets say the tank is at 35 in the morning, the diesel heater (on a circulation circuit) will boost the heat to 50 in a couple of hours, that way you both have the heat you need for want of a litre of fuel or keep it going for more heat if you need it.

i'm certain that can be done for under £500

just food for thought mate.

kevinc250 said:

hi @paul alanI did look at your post on the other forum-don't often go there but its an entertaining read at best.

if it were me, in the situation you are in re coastal cleaning and sometimes need another hand I would without a doubt go for a 5kw diesel heater, I know some will say i'm wrong but,

if you keep at the immersion heater route and lets say the tank is at 35 in the morning, the diesel heater (on a circulation circuit) will boost the heat to 50 in a couple of hours, that way you both have the heat you need for want of a litre of fuel or keep it going for more heat if you need it.

i'm certain that can be done for under £500

just food for thought mate.

Click to expand...

Good idea. He would just need the boiler and wiring without the heat exchangers etc.

There was that windie in Handover who did this and put up a 2 part video on Youtube doing it. What struck me is the amount of heat he lost in the exhaust.

its what ive been using for 18 months bruce, I like it in the way that I can control how hot I need the tank water on that day, in summer i'll use around 10 litres a week but winter is a good 15 litres.

it suits me at the moment but ive just bought a new heater from china which i'm hoping once its all ironed out will give me the heat I need but with a vastly reduced fuel consumtion plus heat recovery from the exhaust, its fighting me every inch of the way at the moment lol but i'll get there

kevinc250 said:

hi @paul alanI did look at your post on the other forum-don't often go there but its an entertaining read at best.

if it were me, in the situation you are in re coastal cleaning and sometimes need another hand I would without a doubt go for a 5kw diesel heater, I know some will say i'm wrong but,

if you keep at the immersion heater route and lets say the tank is at 35 in the morning, the diesel heater (on a circulation circuit) will boost the heat to 50 in a couple of hours, that way you both have the heat you need for want of a litre of fuel or keep it going for more heat if you need it.

i'm certain that can be done for under £500

just food for thought mate.

Click to expand...

Thanks, but I'm not sure exactly how this would work? What would I need?

What temps are you working with at the brush?

kevinc250 said:

its what ive been using for 18 months bruce, I like it in the way that I can control how hot I need the tank water on that day, in summer i'll use around 10 litres a week but winter is a good 15 litres.

it suits me at the moment but ive just bought a new heater from china which i'm hoping once its all ironed out will give me the heat I need but with a vastly reduced fuel consumtion plus heat recovery from the exhaust, its fighting me every inch of the way at the moment lol but i'll get there

Click to expand...

Nothing is ever easy these days.

You must have seen the posts on the other side with P&F's modified Chinese air heater using an extending tube with copper coils inside as a heat exchanger. 

I did bruce, and its a very intresting read I've decided to use my old liebig condenser for this as it was made for the same kw diesel heater in mind so I will be using this and should marry up quite well, I know what you mean in as nothing is easy, technically it will be fine but it may not look as polished as it could be due to where I can source the parts etc, i'm resorting to using a  pit bike exhaust cut up to keep the angle of the bends and keep the flow of exhaust gases to a minimum and then add a small amount of back pressure to lock some of the heat/flow where I want it to be, 

I've seen p&f's posts but still can't work out the way he's done it as they are so many pages, maybe you can explain it to me?

@paul alancoming on to your question, I use a diesel heater to re-circulate water through the tank, every pass it makes on mine gives around a 9c rise in temp (my pump is a 600lph one) so,if you had you tank in the morning at 35 one hour with the heater will pop it up to 44c and the next hour 53c and so on until it tops out at 85c, I've learned that at the brush temps are pretty much nonsense as the ground temperatures vary with the seasons and I now rely on tank temps and go with that, i'm very happy sitting at 42-45 all day long even in summer with the insect poo and all manner of things, I do use additives which help me with the cleaning aspect and hence, I use a lower temp.

now I know some use 60c water in this heat and swear by it that's fine but that's what the burner throws out heatwise so users get used to it and go with it.

kevinc250 said:

I did bruce, and its a very intresting read I've decided to use my old liebig condenser for this as it was made for the same kw diesel heater in mind so I will be using this and should marry up quite well, I know what you mean in as nothing is easy, technically it will be fine but it may not look as polished as it could be due to where I can source the parts etc, i'm resorting to using a  pit bike exhaust cut up to keep the angle of the bends and keep the flow of exhaust gases to a minimum and then add a small amount of back pressure to lock some of the heat/flow where I want it to be, 

I've seen p&f's posts but still can't work out the way he's done it as they are so many pages, maybe you can explain it to me?

@paul alancoming on to your question, I use a diesel heater to re-circulate water through the tank, every pass it makes on mine gives around a 9c rise in temp (my pump is a 600lph one) so,if you had you tank in the morning at 35 one hour with the heater will pop it up to 44c and the next hour 53c and so on until it tops out at 85c, I've learned that at the brush temps are pretty much nonsense as the ground temperatures vary with the seasons and I now rely on tank temps and go with that, i'm very happy sitting at 42-45 all day long even in summer with the insect poo and all manner of things, I do use additives which help me with the cleaning aspect and hence, I use a lower temp.

now I know some use 60c water in this heat and swear by it that's fine but that's what the burner throws out heatwise so users get used to it and go with it.

Click to expand...

A diesel air heater has a burner inside an outer heat exchanger. Air is blown over the fins of the heat exchanger creating warm air for the area to be heated where the xhaust gas is directed out through the exhaust - a similar concept to a hydronic heater where the internal heat exchanger heats an outer jacket filled with water.

Rich has cut off the end of his air heater and it using the exhaust gas to heat up copper tube coils inside a long exhaust tube which exits the van 3 or so feet away from the furnace. So this is in effect a crude copy of an oil burner used in an oil heated hot water boiler.

He is able to get good heat from his water before the hose reel - 71 degrees using a cheap Chinese diesel air heater.

This is so interesting!

Where I'm located the winter is harder and colder! Electrical supply is limited ?

I just bought a LPG water heater and thought to heat up van with that combined with v11 controller.

But if I can do this with the Chinese diesel heaters, I would much rather go that route. I can not find more details about "p&f'S" post.

Please, if anyone has any more info about this, I'm super excited to hear more about it... ? Both for hot water supply for cleaning and frost protection for van ??

NorVik said:

This is so interesting!

Where I'm located the winter is harder and colder! Electrical supply is limited ?

I just bought a LPG water heater and thought to heat up van with that combined with v11 controller.

But if I can do this with the Chinese diesel heaters, I would much rather go that route. I can not find more details about "p&f'S" post.

Please, if anyone has any more info about this, I'm super excited to hear more about it... ? Both for hot water supply for cleaning and frost protection for van ??

Click to expand...

This may be of interest to you.





With a boiler connected like this one thing you do have to remember is that if the temperature in the van dropped too low then the water in the boiler could freeze. A frostat from Spring will solve this as will a temperature controller off Ebay using a 12 volt 40 amp relay.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Digital-Temperature-Thermostat-STC-1000-Controller-50-110-Heating-Cooling-UWA/163877380799?hash=item2627da62bf:m:mNF4hLGSY1Jzj7y9I4onv5A

Of course the more water in the tank the longer it will take to warm up.

Den said:

paul alan said:

I have a 3kw all hooked on a 16 amp supply, its been on for 12 hours overnight. The best I can expect is warm water at the brush today.

Click to expand...

If the water is not piping hot after a 12 hour heating at 3kw something is not right. I'm guessing one of two things, or a combination of both : the element is not low enough in the tank to heat all the water as the thermostat will cut out as soon as it reaches the set temperature which, as heat rises will mean that if it is fitted too high in the tank the lower level water is not reaching the required temperature. That would mean that the reservoir of heat would not be big enough to maintain the temperature(a cup of hot water will cool far faster than a bath full of hot water) . The other likely problem is not enough serious insulation on, under and around the tank.

My 650 litre Wyevale tank has a wooden floor underneath it, on top of the floor is a rubber mat and then the tank. The tank has a 2kw immersion heater with double thermostat fitted about 4 inches from the bottom. The tank is very well insulated and has a thick, hard rubber mat on the top which is the floor and shelf for the side kit. My 2kw is switched on early evening and cuts in and out late at night once it has reached 60c. After a full day's work the temperature in the remaining water is still about 50 - 55c.

Click to expand...

NorVik said:

This is so interesting!

Where I'm located the winter is harder and colder! Electrical supply is limited ?

I just bought a LPG water heater and thought to heat up van with that combined with v11 controller.

But if I can do this with the Chinese diesel heaters, I would much rather go that route. I can not find more details about "p&f'S" post.

Please, if anyone has any more info about this, I'm super excited to hear more about it... ? Both for hot water supply for cleaning and frost protection for van ??

Click to expand...

hi norvick, I have used one of these for last years cold weather and, I just wished i'd have found it earlierhttps://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Excelvan-5KW-12V-Integration-Diesel-Air-Heater-Parking-Heater-Warming-w-Remote/323948450386?_trkparms=ispr%3D1&hash=item4b6cd51252:g:NbkAAOSw5CddVma-&enc=AQAEAAACUBPxNw%2BVj6nta7CKEs3N0qVLGFs3j7eyZKwf6uqXfKHzPpNEndn9IOFLAkImc3qIUSg9XLuaMIuLBUUk8djaEtEA40uyeW6HKDUo3bym02rKMcwccgqMxXiv2dxoLoxv1%2B7mFDhnmCcUFC2REoFXrWodi8BxNUNlhgclOUPWM0YoZlumgNM1g2j1C88D3Df6fbRvW4Cj7bemg84M1QXWm2p3QAAm5sTGjGPV2F75zpPee9sdEikWKLCxoh1raxWBdiBN1v0QknuQwmD0pP9ID0h3e7cWYbCdAY%2Bv15NHkAqBX9sidjjE%2BsLlP3m%2FOwdvZGj5MnuZdtgbS5xwE3i8ZKSozGGJ1sIezr2K36C%2FFgztC5FxdC2PkkHaB3t0x2cp6O7%2FqcpY3UVBhsNpIU%2BuSXjlH9cgzx8LvMK91lTdBlv3FrOt%2FG%2BM9yAezhoAq4z%2BiRhL5%2F98gsa4G%2FfG%2FVSIfpG9rhDbqbMApXhLQlRgn9K1p9s5XN2eG%2BkkK6eJERfbW%2BMUTccYNewGuhMBFID8q6t1woP1JZubKNvDOO43SuvLfXLIFObfjtn%2BaYlpMRhtIoaqn%2BRmtjmc7jI1EF5st34iVvcBayZLfLsrMd58BluM1%2FRLDE4VWFzy4Ib0pb76wLhE7JnRehVRSdk6gYrVExqNJUaR2QcuRxX5ynttMescsV3h7%2FhboiDaAVOARZdhLJpyPUIDvzx6vwva2sY0Ztafbkzq%2Ben%2Bi3Lai23fxVYIAnGpZh6azPzKdnQ8DUuVpZ1YiXzCSFAItOA70NByLvs%3D&checksum=3239484503869b20e27006b64124a8680e99b2b6aaaf&enc=AQAEAAACUBPxNw%2BVj6nta7CKEs3N0qVLGFs3j7eyZKwf6uqXfKHzPpNEndn9IOFLAkImc3qIUSg9XLuaMIuLBUUk8djaEtEA40uyeW6HKDUo3bym02rKMcwccgqMxXiv2dxoLoxv1%2B7mFDhnmCcUFC2REoFXrWodi8BxNUNlhgclOUPWM0YoZlumgNM1g2j1C88D3Df6fbRvW4Cj7bemg84M1QXWm2p3QAAm5sTGjGPV2F75zpPee9sdEikWKLCxoh1raxWBdiBN1v0QknuQwmD0pP9ID0h3e7cWYbCdAY%2Bv15NHkAqBX9sidjjE%2BsLlP3m%2FOwdvZGj5MnuZdtgbS5xwE3i8ZKSozGGJ1sIezr2K36C%2FFgztC5FxdC2PkkHaB3t0x2cp6O7%2FqcpY3UVBhsNpIU%2BuSXjlH9cgzx8LvMK91lTdBlv3FrOt%2FG%2BM9yAezhoAq4z%2BiRhL5%2F98gsa4G%2FfG%2FVSIfpG9rhDbqbMApXhLQlRgn9K1p9s5XN2eG%2BkkK6eJERfbW%2BMUTccYNewGuhMBFID8q6t1woP1JZubKNvDOO43SuvLfXLIFObfjtn%2BaYlpMRhtIoaqn%2BRmtjmc7jI1EF5st34iVvcBayZLfLsrMd58BluM1%2FRLDE4VWFzy4Ib0pb76wLhE7JnRehVRSdk6gYrVExqNJUaR2QcuRxX5ynttMescsV3h7%2FhboiDaAVOARZdhLJpyPUIDvzx6vwva2sY0Ztafbkzq%2Ben%2Bi3Lai23fxVYIAnGpZh6azPzKdnQ8DUuVpZ1YiXzCSFAItOA70NByLvs%3D&checksum=3239484503869b20e27006b64124a8680e99b2b6aaaf

this is just a quick example of what I have, the supplier is your choice of course