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Fergus MacDougall

Hot water systems



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Fergus MacDougall

Hi

I'm interested to know what Hot water systems work well for people and do you feel they add value to your business, if any?

 

 

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Pjj

It makes the working day easier especially in   the winter with hot supple hoses , makes first cleans much quicker and easier with faster better results , desolves bird poo and salt much quicker . 

Does  it add value to your buissness , no , would I go back to cold water in my vans no way . 

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dazmond

hot water is a luxury.....but i wouldnt be without it..i use it all day/every day all year round on full heat setting(9kw diesel heater)

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kevinc250
19 hours ago, dazmond said:

hot water is a luxury.....but i wouldnt be without it..i use it all day/every day all year round on full heat setting(9kw diesel heater)

you forgot with frostat! daz 😀😋

hot water will make your day easier and less of a chore, you may even speed up a bit over the day, is it worthwhile? that's a hard question but most who use it on a daily basis would never go back to cold water

Edited by kevinc250

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scottish cleaning service
19 hours ago, dazmond said:

hot water is a luxury.....but i wouldnt be without it..i use it all day/every day all year round on full heat setting(9kw diesel heater)

 

How much does it cost you in diesel? I still have to find out when mine is up and running.

 

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kevinc250
1 minute ago, scottish cleaning service said:

 

How much does it cost you in diesel? I still have to find out when mine is up and running.

 

as a guide its 100ml per kw, so yours Scottish would be 0.9l per hour of use

yours still not up and running Scottish? whats wrong with the damn thing

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scottish cleaning service
4 minutes ago, kevinc250 said:

as a guide its 100ml per kw, so yours Scottish would be 0.9l per hour of use

yours still not up and running Scottish? whats wrong with the damn thing

 

It was working down in Cambridge and then it stopped working when i crossed the boarder. Ollie is coming up to do some work so going to fix it and electrify my reels. Think it was a blessing in disguise because it will be working for the start of winter. Handy for washing the van when waiting around for someone to appear.

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Pjj
23 minutes ago, kevinc250 said:

as a guide its 100ml per kw, so yours Scottish would be 0.9l per hour of use

yours still not up and running Scottish? whats wrong with the damn thing

 

 

I have no idear  how much it uses but I suspect it’s considerably more   than that up to 1:25-1:5 ltr per hour  I regularly put £75-85 per week in the tank and we don’t do much mileage , but the boiler is running flat out 7-8 hours a day 5 days a week , it’s expensive but worth it in time saved and much quicker cleaning with bird poo snail trails pollen , and salt . 

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scottish cleaning service
1 minute ago, Pjj said:

 

 

I have no idear  how much it uses but I suspect it’s considerably more   than that up to 1:25-1:5 ltr per hour  I regularly put £75-85 per week in the tank and we don’t do much mileage , but the boiler is running flat out 7-8 hours a day 5 days a week , it’s expensive but worth it in time saved and much quicker cleaning with bird poo snail trails pollen , and salt . 

 

I was wondering why not use red diesel? Would need a separate tank though.

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kevinc250

I think it seems the grippa tank have a warranty of four years or four miles whichever comes first, that's the way it seems.

many of us do use red as its far cheaper

 

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Pjj
17 minutes ago, scottish cleaning service said:

 

I was wondering why not use red diesel? Would need a separate tank though.

 

 

Yes you can use a separate tank but red diesel is a no no as it will invalidate your warrantee 

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AGlassAct
1 hour ago, Pjj said:

 

 

Yes you can use a separate tank but red diesel is a no no as it will invalidate your warrantee 

I’ve never heard that @Pjj ? Is this from the likes of grippa, pure freedom etc? Red diesel is no different to white (road) except it has a red dye in to distinguish it between road diesel (taxed) and red diesel (untaxed). These boilers are designed for boats who only use red diesel so don’t understand the logic in not using it? I have a separate tank (20l) for my 5kW webasto - fill it with red diesel every other week. Looking at the spec for the 9kW I also have it uses exactly twice the amount of fuel. But it heats the water sooooo much faster. 

Going back to the original question from the OP, out of the 3 ‘options’ diesel is by far the most reliable I have used. LPG was more expensive to run from my perspective (fuel wise) as I could only get lpg from the local marina which was expensive, it’s the cheapest installation option but I had two boilers catch fire within 6 months of each other so went back to using the webasto. The last option - immersion heater - would be the way I would go on my next van build as I think the overall installation cost, repair costs and running costs would be less than the other two. They are only suitable if you have a drive/garage due to needing 240v supply and I would have a separate sub meter installed so I could claim 100% of the electricity as a business expense. Also - unless you know a decent electrician, installing a separate circuit to run the immersion could cost a pretty penny. I have had an immersion in a tank before but must have had a bad batch as they kept failing, I’d get a 2 kW element next time though I think, purely to make heating the water a bit safer (and easier on the old house electrics!!!).

Like the previous replies - I use my diesel heater every day in all weathers and would never go back to using just cold. Does it add value to your business - I think so! It’s certainly added to the sales pitch when I’m quoting and people find it an interesting talking point, I also think it’s gained me customers over the years; not as many to cover the cost of it but every little helps!! 

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Pjj

Yes grippatank state it will invalidate the warrantee , there is a lot of controversy with red diesel , some red diesel is indeed white with a dye in it but there is also a marine grade diesel that is red that’s totally different it’s thus stuff that causes problems with  the heater , a friend of mine is a marine engineer and electrician and he said they get no end of problems with ones run on the red marine stuff  i also  understand that the marine grade red is being done away with at some point ????? My boiler is now 5 years old and done  over 10000 hours never been serviced and runs sweet as a nut always been run on white road diesel . 

In the USA they run them on keresene I think it’s a bit like our aviation fuel that is also very good as it produces less carbon build up on the screen so several friends have told me . It’s an expensive way of having hot water I admit that but I would never go back to cold now , it’s well worth the expense , and defiantly the best way to safely do the job 

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Davy G
1 hour ago, AGlassAct said:

I’ve never heard that @Pjj ? Is this from the likes of grippa, pure freedom etc? Red diesel is no different to white (road) except it has a red dye in to distinguish it between road diesel (taxed) and red diesel (untaxed). These boilers are designed for boats who only use red diesel so don’t understand the logic in not using it? I have a separate tank (20l) for my 5kW webasto - fill it with red diesel every other week. Looking at the spec for the 9kW I also have it uses exactly twice the amount of fuel. But it heats the water sooooo much faster. 

Going back to the original question from the OP, out of the 3 ‘options’ diesel is by far the most reliable I have used. LPG was more expensive to run from my perspective (fuel wise) as I could only get lpg from the local marina which was expensive, it’s the cheapest installation option but I had two boilers catch fire within 6 months of each other so went back to using the webasto. The last option - immersion heater - would be the way I would go on my next van build as I think the overall installation cost, repair costs and running costs would be less than the other two. They are only suitable if you have a drive/garage due to needing 240v supply and I would have a separate sub meter installed so I could claim 100% of the electricity as a business expense. Also - unless you know a decent electrician, installing a separate circuit to run the immersion could cost a pretty penny. I have had an immersion in a tank before but must have had a bad batch as they kept failing, I’d get a 2 kW element next time though I think, purely to make heating the water a bit safer (and easier on the old house electrics!!!).

Like the previous replies - I use my diesel heater every day in all weathers and would never go back to using just cold. Does it add value to your business - I think so! It’s certainly added to the sales pitch when I’m quoting and people find it an interesting talking point, I also think it’s gained me customers over the years; not as many to cover the cost of it but every little helps!! 

I've been using a 2kw immersion for a couple of years, throughout the year. As per Squeeky Clean Dave, youtube. 650ltr Wyedale flat tank allowed me to fit it very near the bottom so I can heat all the water. I can get 60 degrees c in a heat from 5pm to 9am in the winter. About 25 - 30 degrees in a 5pm to 11pm heat in the summer and lose very little heat overnight as the tank is very well insulated. The running cost is about 6p per hour as far as I know. The water stays at almost the same temperature throughout the working day even in winter. 

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Lennie

My 9kw heater for two people 7hr day uses on average £8 diesel per day. 

 

A question for for those that do use hot water, I notice that some say they run it flat out full temperature. If I do that my temperature gets up to about 65 degrees, which for me I think is a little too hot. I cracked a pane of glass yesterday, new build house, this was the 3rd clean. Checked the temperature of the water and was running at 52 degrees. 

 

I cracked a pane about 3 months back, another new build but this was a 1st clean. The water temperature then was showing 54 degrees. As it was a 1st clean I told the customer that the glass must of had a fault for it to crack, and the builders replaced it. 

 

So so what temperature do you guys run yours at ? and any problems ?

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Davy G

I'd say your problem might be too much dwell time on the glass, which is causing thermal shock. Faster, longer strokes, a good couple of swipes on the sill to start and finish and move on smartly to the next window. 

Last year my son cracked a pane when the customer came out for a chat and he kept washing the same window through lack of consentration. No great problem it was a downstairs window on a granny annexe and a local Doctor Glass fixed it a couple of days later at a fair price. 

Temperature Up to 60 degrees in the tank and about half that by the time it's gone through the hoses. 

Speed is important, even more so with heated water on cold glass. I'd be aiming for 20 to 30 seconds on an average size wìndow with two main panes and a small top opener. Not much longer for the next size up. 

Good luck. 🙂👍

Edited by Davy G

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dazmond

it costs me around a fiver a day to heat my water...love it....much better(and safer!) than the cheap gas shower heaters i used to use.....

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Chris34

When you all say you love it and would never go back to cold water, well is this because it's faster or do you find it cleans better or both?  I understand bird muck would be quicker but I don't come across much, so that wouldn't bother me but does it leave the frames cleaner (whiter)?

 

Also what sort of cost would it be?  I've already got a 90 litre LPG tank in the back of my van (duel fuel) would I be able to use that?

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Pjj
7 hours ago, Lennie said:

My 9kw heater for two people 7hr day uses on average £8 diesel per day. 

 

A question for for those that do use hot water, I notice that some say they run it flat out full temperature. If I do that my temperature gets up to about 65 degrees, which for me I think is a little too hot. I cracked a pane of glass yesterday, new build house, this was the 3rd clean. Checked the temperature of the water and was running at 52 degrees. 

 

I cracked a pane about 3 months back, another new build but this was a 1st clean. The water temperature then was showing 54 degrees. As it was a 1st clean I told the customer that the glass must of had a fault for it to crack, and the builders replaced it. 

 

So so what temperature do you guys run yours at ? and any problems ?

 

 

We regularly use water  on glass at 65-70 degrees it’s so hot you cannot bare it on your hands , I do sometimes turn it down in the summer months but winter it’s flat out all day . We have Brocken two pains of glass in 5 years one was damaged behind the seal and the other was a new window fitted days before we cleaned it and it had been packed to tight in the frame , I agree with others comments dint keep the wager on one spot keep the brush moving this should stop thermal shock , there is a video on line of someone putting boiling water on a double glazed unit that has ice on it and the glass doesn’t crack , we have cleaned conservatories with ice on the frames and glass and never had a problem with the boiler flat out but Ona frosty morning the hose on the ground will loose quite a bit of heat anyway .

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Pjj
1 hour ago, Chris34 said:

When you all say you love it and would never go back to cold water, well is this because it's faster or do you find it cleans better or both?  I understand bird muck would be quicker but I don't come across much, so that wouldn't bother me but does it leave the frames cleaner (whiter)?

 

Also what sort of cost would it be?  I've already got a 90 litre LPG tank in the back of my van (duel fuel) would I be able to use that?

 

 

The answer to all your questions is yes , faster : better clean: frames come up much better : and hoses are nice and supple in the winter 

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Chris34
54 minutes ago, Pjj said:

 

 

The answer to all your questions is yes , faster : better clean: frames come up much better : and hoses are nice and supple in the winter 

 

Cheers, does the pole get hot?  Also how much faster do you think it is?  I think I'll fill up some hot water and give it a go.  Is there a sweet spot on the temperature to remove the dirt or is it a case of as hot as poss? I mean when you clean your dirty rags in the washing machine at 30, well they look nothing like as clean when washing them at 60, never tried 90 but I'd expect them to be cleaner again.  

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kevinc250
16 minutes ago, Chris34 said:

 

Cheers, does the pole get hot?  Also how much faster do you think it is?  I think I'll fill up some hot water and give it a go.  Is there a sweet spot on the temperature to remove the dirt or is it a case of as hot as poss? I mean when you clean your dirty rags in the washing machine at 30, well they look nothing like as clean when washing them at 60, never tried 90 but I'd expect them to be cleaner again.  

@chris34 ask to meet up with @dazmond as I don't think he's that far away from you to see what you think about hot water, regarding heatwise, some love the higher temps whereas others find the lower temps 35-45/50 works just great for them, its all about your location really and what you have to deal with as in bird poo or salty air etc so theres no hard and fast rule of thumb for everyone its just down to your location, warm water behaves differently to cold water and hence the cleaning time is shortened, how much by depends on you and the equipment you have to hand, for me when I first started a time saving of an hour over the day wasn't a problem and moving on as the frames and glass are a tad cleaner you could argue that there could be a further saving in time on maintainence cleans 

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Pjj
1 hour ago, Chris34 said:

 

Cheers, does the pole get hot?  Also how much faster do you think it is?  I think I'll fill up some hot water and give it a go.  Is there a sweet spot on the temperature to remove the dirt or is it a case of as hot as poss? I mean when you clean your dirty rags in the washing machine at 30, well they look nothing like as clean when washing them at 60, never tried 90 but I'd expect them to be cleaner again.  

 

 

It keeps your hands warm thus keeping your whole body warm I very rarely put on a jacket , unless it’s raining evan in the coldest of weather . Cleaning times are reduced we do a lot of Costal work and sometimes after storms the salt is 3-4 mm thick and the glass looks opaque and we regularly get sand and sea weed on the windows and doors jobs like this literally take half the time that they did with cold water . Summer time we have a major problem with seagull poo on practically  every window we do , backed on oily bird poo is a nightmare with cold hot eats through it so much faster and will even remove the oily marks that cold wouldn’t generally get off . It is expensive to run but we do far more work than we did using cold so it more than pays for its self , I know a lot won’t agree with what I have said , I have a guy who works fir me now that used tk have his own round using cold , when he started working for me he said hot was a waist of time and money , having worked for me now for two years he said he cannot believe the difference in speed of cleaning and how much better the frames come up , when we pick up new customers they always comment how much whiter /cleaner the frames are , I was cold wfp for around 10 years when I started using hot on those same jobs the customers noticed quite a difference with the frames , so it does a far superior job to cold it will remove dulling that cold won’t . 

As for temperature generaly it’s 50-65 degrees at the brush head depending on ambient temperature , and the length of hose out it can be much hotter if only 15-25 meters of hose is out we quite often have steam coming off the windows or the building walls 

Edited by Pjj

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AGlassAct
20 hours ago, Davy G said:

I've been using a 2kw immersion for a couple of years, throughout the year. As per Squeeky Clean Dave, youtube. 650ltr Wyedale flat tank allowed me to fit it very near the bottom so I can heat all the water. I can get 60 degrees c in a heat from 5pm to 9am in the winter. About 25 - 30 degrees in a 5pm to 11pm heat in the summer and lose very little heat overnight as the tank is very well insulated. The running cost is about 6p per hour as far as I know. The water stays at almost the same temperature throughout the working day even in winter. 

When I had an immersion I used to circulate the water through the hose reel back in to the top of the tank - this served as an extra frost prevention measure and also aided heating the water throughout the tank. I’d worked it out to cost around £2.50 to heat 400 litres. You must be on the cheapest electricity tariff if yours is 6p per kWh. Mine/the average is around 13.5p per kWh. 

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Chris34
1 hour ago, Pjj said:

 

 

It keeps your hands warm thus keeping your whole body warm I very rarely put on a jacket , unless it’s raining evan in the coldest of weather . Cleaning times are reduced we do a lot of Costal work and sometimes after storms the salt is 3-4 mm thick and the glass looks opaque and we regularly get sand and sea weed on the windows and doors jobs like this literally take half the time that they did with cold water . Summer time we have a major problem with seagull poo on practically  every window we do , backed on oily bird poo is a nightmare with cold hot eats through it so much faster and will even remove the oily marks that cold wouldn’t generally get off . It is expensive to run but we do far more work than we did using cold so it more than pays for its self , I know a lot won’t agree with what I have said , I have a guy who works fir me now that used tk have his own round using cold , when he started working for me he said hot was a waist of time and money , having worked for me now for two years he said he cannot believe the difference in speed of cleaning and how much better the frames come up , when we pick up new customers they always comment how much whiter /cleaner the frames are , I was cold wfp for around 10 years when I started using hot on those same jobs the customers noticed quite a difference with the frames , so it does a far superior job to cold it will remove dulling that cold won’t . 

As for temperature generaly it’s 50-65 degrees at the brush head depending on ambient temperature , and the length of hose out it can be much hotter if only 15-25 meters of hose is out we quite often have steam coming off the windows or the building walls 

 

Sold, that's enough for me to hear.  

 

You wouldn't wash a car with cold water, the dishes with cold water or your clothes with cold water as the results are not as good and it takes longer so it makes perfect sense that cleaning with hot water is the best option.

 

It's more the frames that I was thinking of as the ones I've done are good but I can spot bits that are looking a little dull, sounds like hot water will slow / stop this happening.

 

I would guess the rinse is easier aswell as like Kevin said, it behaves differently.

 

I'll probably try the immersion heater method to begin with.  

 

 

 

 

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wee man
28 minutes ago, Chris34 said:

 

Sold, that's enough for me to hear.  

 

You wouldn't wash a car with cold water, the dishes with cold water or your clothes with cold water as the results are not as good and it takes longer so it makes perfect sense that cleaning with hot water is the best option.

 

It's more the frames that I was thinking of as the ones I've done are good but I can spot bits that are looking a little dull, sounds like hot water will slow / stop this happening.

 

I would guess the rinse is easier aswell as like Kevin said, it behaves differently.

 

I'll probably try the immersion heater method to begin with.  

 

 

 

 

Every time I go to a car wash it's done in cold water ? 

I'm not saying hot water isn't better cause common sense tells you it is. 

I'm waiting on the bloke from the other forum getting his ready, he said it would be about £500 for a diesel heater, but saying it's costing more now so even at grand it's still a lot cheaper than anything about atm. 

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Chris34
13 minutes ago, wee man said:

Every time I go to a car wash it's done in cold water ? 

I'm not saying hot water isn't better cause common sense tells you it is. 

I'm waiting on the bloke from the other forum getting his ready, he said it would be about £500 for a diesel heater, but saying it's costing more now so even at grand it's still a lot cheaper than anything about atm. 

 

Is that a hand car wash?  I would think the only cold car washes would be the roller type, where the brushes are doing the work or the high pressure ones where they spray a foam over the car, let it dwell and then blast it off at high pressure.

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wee man
2 minutes ago, Chris34 said:

 

Is that a hand car wash?  I would think the only cold car washes would be the roller type, where the brushes are doing the work or the high pressure ones where they spray a foam over the car, let it dwell and then blast it off at high pressure.

Yes there all hand wash here, wet, spray on then use cloth and then rinse.  All with cold water. 

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Chris34

Just looking up the immersion heaters, if you were clever then a solar panel on the roof and signing up for the government fits payments would mean that you would get free hot water and get paid for doing it via the 'fits scheme'.  Unfortunately the scheme closed in April but anybody who had signed up before could essentially have got paid to produce hot water. :1f911: 

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Part Timer

I only use hot water on first cleans, it makes a big difference on these and does help on bad bird marks. 

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