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P4dstar

Split charge - What is different post 2015



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P4dstar

I'm told that post 2015 vehicles need a different split charge. I've had an old one fitted for quite some time with no issues. Can anyone explain why they need a different system, mine seems to be working but wonder if there is something I'm missing.

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Omega

hi,

new alternators from around euro 5 engines onwards do not output the same constant power like the older ones. Also, with regenerative braking the output can go up and down which means the old voltage sensitive relays (vsr) don't work properly or at all.

 

You will need a battery to battery charger which works a little different to a vsr.

 

I'm not an expert by any means but that is the gist. It would be worth checking one for the supplier websites or YouTube and they will explain it better and fully. We use sterling battery to battery chargers in our vans as they are euro 6 and 6.2 engines. Very good and provide constant feedback to the condition of the unit and you can fully customise they're settings.

 

 

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Davy G
36 minutes ago, P4dstar said:

I'm told that post 2015 vehicles need a different split charge. I've had an old one fitted for quite some time with no issues. Can anyone explain why they need a different system, mine seems to be working but wonder if there is something I'm missing.

I should think if you have one that's working you're fine, surely. Some of the newer vehicles have a regeneration system or something. I think they work by harvesting energy from the brakes being applied and put different challenges in the charging system. Maybe different systems, I don't know.

 

I'm very confident you'll get a definitive answer on here before long. 🙂

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Davy G
9 minutes ago, Part Timer said:

@spruceyour wisdom is required again

Spruce should be wearing a superhero cape and his Y fronts on the outside.

Don't know what we'd do without his vast wealth of technical knowledge. 🙂

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P4dstar
10 hours ago, Omega said:

don't work properly or at all.

This is the bit that I'm interested in. It seems to be working fine on mine. I bench charge when I do commercial or days where the van is close to home all day, the rest of the time I rely on my split charge. Being I can go for a week without bench charge I imagine its fine.

 

I was under the understanding it wouldn't charge the battery as often based on the regenerative braking, I believed the main battery wouldn't go over the required voltage in order for the split charge to actually kick in. Just wanted to confirm if that is correct and if there are any other underlying issues I could be causing.

 

10 hours ago, Part Timer said:

@spruceyour wisdom is required again

Felt rude to disturb his weekend so I just thought I'd wait for him to spot it. You on the other hand have no concern for his social life 😂

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spruce
2 hours ago, P4dstar said:

This is the bit that I'm interested in. It seems to be working fine on mine. I bench charge when I do commercial or days where the van is close to home all day, the rest of the time I rely on my split charge. Being I can go for a week without bench charge I imagine its fine.

 

I was under the understanding it wouldn't charge the battery as often based on the regenerative braking, I believed the main battery wouldn't go over the required voltage in order for the split charge to actually kick in. Just wanted to confirm if that is correct and if there are any other underlying issues I could be causing.

 

Felt rude to disturb his weekend so I just thought I'd wait for him to spot it. You on the other hand have no concern for his social life 😂

 

Old people don't have a social life. 😂 Every time we sit in a chair we fall asleep and snore.

13 hours ago, P4dstar said:

I'm told that post 2015 vehicles need a different split charge. I've had an old one fitted for quite some time with no issues. Can anyone explain why they need a different system, mine seems to be working but wonder if there is something I'm missing.

 

This will keep you out of mischief for the remainder of the weekend.😄

 

https://windowcleaningforums.co.uk/forums/topic/22375-split-charge-relay/

 

This basically applies to vehicles with regenerative braking. But manufacturers are also messing around with other options. My current 12 plate Peugeot Boxer does not have regen braking but PSA have reduced the voltage output of the alternator and added a much larger starter battery to compensate.

This basically means that with a VSR (split charge relay) recharging a leisure battery in the back will take longer.

 

Later PSA vehicles have gone the Adblue route.

 

I have a Sterling BB1260, (a BB1230 is also just as good) in place of my VSR I had on my old van. It has kept my leisure battery fully charged these past 3 weeks so I haven't needed to supplementary charge the battery. We don't do much mileage a day either.

 

I've always known that alternators make poor battery chargers, but since I've invested in this B2B charger I realise now how awful they really are.

 

 

Edited by spruce

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spruce
13 hours ago, Davy G said:

Spruce should be wearing a superhero cape and his Y fronts on the outside.

Don't know what we'd do without his vast wealth of technical knowledge. 🙂

 

We all have strengths and weaknesses. This is why I find these forums fascinating. I can honestly say that I get more from here than I give. I have always said that when it comes to the likes of Alex Gardiner. Doug Atkinson and a few unnamed others, what I still have to learn is what they have forgotten.

 

The design brain of Steve Jones has me in awe. To see something working and find another application for it is truly amasing. Who would have looked at the operation of a Parker ball point pen and copied it in the Univalve for it to work so successfully.

 

I love the operation of mechanical things, so this comes easier to me than it might someone else. But when it comes to electronics, my mind 'melts'.

I watch Diagnose Dan on Youtube trying to understand how he manages to read codes and focus in on a fault on cars coming into his workshop is just over my head. But give me an engine to strip down and rebuild; in my younger days that was child's play.

 

Try to find my way around my Android Smart phone is a real challenge for me.

 

Edited by spruce

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P4dstar
2 hours ago, spruce said:

recharging a leisure battery in the back will take longer

Ok.... I promise I will absolutely try and get to grips with the rest of it but I'm currently about to take the kids to Alton Towers to watch the fireworks. I'm pretty sure the above is the bit I'm looking for. I'm happy it will take longer and still work as long as it isn't causing damage to the battery. I drive good miles between villages. Also, where you mention AdBlu I have this on mine if that makes any difference.

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Part Timer
12 hours ago, P4dstar said:

Felt rude to disturb his weekend so I just thought I'd wait for him to spot it. You on the other hand have no concern for his social life 😂

He'd already been on earlier on talking about his dream motor 😀

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P4dstar
22 hours ago, spruce said:

 

This will keep you out of mischief for the remainder of the weekend.😄

 

https://windowcleaningforums.co.uk/forums/topic/22375-split-charge-relay/

Morning @spruce. I’ve read through this, it’s a very good guide and some of your best work I think! You mentioned the high voltage dumped into batteries from regenerative breaking and how they could damage a lead leisure battery. I wonder if the reason I’m having no trouble is I’m on a gel marine battery?

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spruce
1 hour ago, P4dstar said:

Morning @spruce. I’ve read through this, it’s a very good guide and some of your best work I think! You mentioned the high voltage dumped into batteries from regenerative breaking and how they could damage a lead leisure battery. I wonder if the reason I’m having no trouble is I’m on a gel marine battery?

 

http://www.chargingchargers.com/tutorials/charging.html

Gel batteries need charging at a maximum voltage of 14.1 or 14.4 volts. Anything above this could damage the battery. I don't know why they have 2 charging voltages but the way to solve this is to email the manufacturer and ask them. (If I had that battery I would set my Sterling unit up to 14.1v until I got a conclusive answer.)

 

Something tells me for the depths of my memory that you have a new Vivaro/Trafic. If you have it could well have regenerative braking.

 

The easiest way to confirm this is to buy one of those cheap digital battery voltage gauges that plug into the cigarette lighter socket.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1Pcs-LED-Car-12v-24v-Battery-Volt-Voltage-Meter-Monitor-Gauge-Cigar-Lighter-Plug/113895961973?epid=677338993&hash=item1a84ba7575:g:0HYAAOSwj25dhR3r

As you are driving you will be able to see the battery voltage across the system. It wouldn't be 100% accurate but it will give you an idea. If the battery charge remains between 12.2v (or there abouts) when driving and suddenly jumps up when decelerating then you have a regen braking system on your van.

 

Some of us have those OBD2 ELM327 readers and the Torque app on our phones as was this response on a Vauxhall forum.

https://www.vauxhallownersnetwork.co.uk/index.php?threads/2015-vivaro-x82-is-this-normal.604153/

 

The reply by Colin Appleby states that his leisure battery is charging at 14.6v when regenerative braking activates. The Sterling B2B charger will limit that to how you have set the unit up. So if you have set your maximum charge voltage at 14.1v then that's the highest it will charge it.

 

I have an open  flooded leisure battery so I can charge at 14.6v. Had I a 'sealed' maintenance free battery then I would limit that to 14.2v.

 

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P4dstar
13 hours ago, spruce said:

 

http://www.chargingchargers.com/tutorials/charging.html

Gel batteries need charging at a maximum voltage of 14.1 or 14.4 volts. Anything above this could damage the battery. I don't know why they have 2 charging voltages but the way to solve this is to email the manufacturer and ask them. (If I had that battery I would set my Sterling unit up to 14.1v until I got a conclusive answer.)

 

Something tells me for the depths of my memory that you have a new Vivaro/Trafic. If you have it could well have regenerative braking.

 

The easiest way to confirm this is to buy one of those cheap digital battery voltage gauges that plug into the cigarette lighter socket.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1Pcs-LED-Car-12v-24v-Battery-Volt-Voltage-Meter-Monitor-Gauge-Cigar-Lighter-Plug/113895961973?epid=677338993&hash=item1a84ba7575:g:0HYAAOSwj25dhR3r

As you are driving you will be able to see the battery voltage across the system. It wouldn't be 100% accurate but it will give you an idea. If the battery charge remains between 12.2v (or there abouts) when driving and suddenly jumps up when decelerating then you have a regen braking system on your van.

 

Some of us have those OBD2 ELM327 readers and the Torque app on our phones as was this response on a Vauxhall forum.

https://www.vauxhallownersnetwork.co.uk/index.php?threads/2015-vivaro-x82-is-this-normal.604153/

 

The reply by Colin Appleby states that his leisure battery is charging at 14.6v when regenerative braking activates. The Sterling B2B charger will limit that to how you have set the unit up. So if you have set your maximum charge voltage at 14.1v then that's the highest it will charge it.

 

I have an open  flooded leisure battery so I can charge at 14.6v. Had I a 'sealed' maintenance free battery then I would limit that to 14.2v.

 

All too scientific for me @spruce. I used to have an older Vivaro. I've got an 18 plate Dispatch the same as Tuffers. It has AdBlu if that helps, I can't find an answer online though.

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spruce
9 hours ago, P4dstar said:

All too scientific for me @spruce. I used to have an older Vivaro. I've got an 18 plate Dispatch the same as Tuffers. It has AdBlu if that helps, I can't find an answer online though.

You could just run the engine and put a multimeter across the starter battery terminals and see what the voltage is. If it's charging at 13.9v then you are ok. If it charges higher than 14.1v then you will damage your gel battery.

This is why I stayed away from gel and agm batteries with my previous van as it's charging voltage was to high.

 

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P4dstar

I've looked over this again and again... All the links etc... I just don't get it. From what I can understand (feel free to correct me of course) even if my battery is charging at 13.9 the charge that is dumped during the regenerative braking process would be much higher anyway. This would explain why my battery is reading 12.3V very quickly. Between jobs this seems to increase to 12.9V but drops to 12.3 or 12.2 by the end of one job.

 

I'm about to buy a new system from Grippa so I think I am best to spend the extra few hundred and get the correct split charge at the same time? Thoughts on this greatly appreciated also are there any cons to these battery chargers?

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Omega

Yes. You would be better to have smart charging system installed. Battery to Battery type. In my opinion of course.

They're easy to wire up. Can do a  setup yourself from around £200 exc batteries.

 

If you get the stuff I can talk you through what to do or pass by and help with it.
Probably only take an hour.

Hardest part is routing the cables from the load area of the van safely and tidily to the main battery location.

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P4dstar
18 minutes ago, Omega said:

Yes. You would be better to have smart charging system installed. Battery to Battery type. In my opinion of course.

They're easy to wire up. Can do a  setup yourself from around £200 exc batteries.

 

If you get the stuff I can talk you through what to do or pass by and help with it.
Probably only take an hour.

Hardest part is routing the cables from the load area of the van safely and tidily to the main battery location.

Thanks mate, I appreciate that. My brother in laws father in law fitted the current one for me. He's an electrical engineer so I'd go to him if it was an easy fix. I was wondering if the current split charge would work if we just change the split charge section for a Sterling BB1260 like @spruce has. If it needs an entire new system then it seems logical to get Griippa to fit it at the same time. The chap who fitted the last one would do it for a couple of free window cleans and some beers.

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spruce
1 hour ago, P4dstar said:

Thanks mate, I appreciate that. My brother in laws father in law fitted the current one for me. He's an electrical engineer so I'd go to him if it was an easy fix. I was wondering if the current split charge would work if we just change the split charge section for a Sterling BB1260 like @spruce has. If it needs an entire new system then it seems logical to get Griippa to fit it at the same time. The chap who fitted the last one would do it for a couple of free window cleans and some beers.

 

On the previous van I had a MPower 140 amp split charge relay connected up to the vans battery with 70amp battery cables. It was a kit supplied by Simply Split Charge on Ebay.

 

If I was going to replace the split charge relay it would have been a very simple job of just swapping one with the other provided I had the space where the SCR was. It also needs to be mounted in a dry place as the unit isn't splash proof. This was another reason why I started from scratch when planning to fit the Sterling unit in the 'new' van.

 

On some of newer van models you might have to add another wire as a trigger from the ignition switch to kick start the battery to battery charger. This is because the alternator may not begin charging the starter battery straight away. The Sterling unit needs to see a charging voltage of 13.6v before it 'wakes up.'

 

I don't know if the Grippa B2B chargers are programmable as there isn't that much detail on the website about the unit. Its also much more expensive when compared to the Sterling unit. It could be programmable with a computer and the correct cables but is it a job for a DIYer like me?

 

Personally, I would fit a Sterling unit at a 'later' date, but that's based on what I know about the Sterling unit and the limited knowledge I have of the Grippa unit. I can program the Sterling unit to charge at different voltages for different battery types; sealed, flooded,AGM, GEL and Lithium Ion. It also comes with a temperature probe. This measures the battery temperature; very important with Lithium Ion batteries. I very much doubt Lithium is a battery any of us would use but the temp probe will also activate the B2B charger to charge my flooded leisure battery at a slightly higher voltage in cold temperatures. I don't know if the Griipa unit has these options.

 

Edited by spruce

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spruce
10 hours ago, P4dstar said:

I've looked over this again and again... All the links etc... I just don't get it. From what I can understand (feel free to correct me of course) even if my battery is charging at 13.9 the charge that is dumped during the regenerative braking process would be much higher anyway. This would explain why my battery is reading 12.3V very quickly. Between jobs this seems to increase to 12.9V but drops to 12.3 or 12.2 by the end of one job.

 

I'm about to buy a new system from Grippa so I think I am best to spend the extra few hundred and get the correct split charge at the same time? Thoughts on this greatly appreciated also are there any cons to these battery chargers?

 

Its very difficult to determine leisure battery voltages as the battery needs to rest for about 4 hours before an accurate reading can be taken. That 12.2v at the end of a job could well rise to 12.5v after 4 hours when the voltages have stabilized. So what appears isn't what is. In other words 12.2v would indicate a battery at 25% charge where 12.5v would be 75% charge. That's a big difference.

 

I really don't know if PSA use regen braking. Using adblue is the route they have taken to achieve emission standards but I don't know if they combine this with regen braking or not.

 

The way to check this is to buy one of those cheap voltage meters that plug into the cigarette lighter and watch what it records during the day when driving. If the voltage jumps up high when you decelerate down a hill with you foot off the accelerator then you have regen braking.

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P4dstar

I've found a layman's term video. Unfortunately its bad news, pretty much every single vehicle post 2015 is euro 6. He explains why you shouldn't fit a split charge relay too. Only got 6 minutes in but he's explaining the damage it will cause to the leisure battery and I imagine the damage it will cause to the starter battery will be next.

 

 

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Pjj
1 minute ago, P4dstar said:

I've found a layman's term video. Unfortunately its bad news, pretty much every single vehicle post 2015 is euro 6. He explains why you shouldn't fit a split charge relay too. Only got 6 minutes in but he's explaining the damage it will cause to the leisure battery and I imagine the damage it will cause to the starter battery will be next.

 

 

 

 

I have a 2014  renault master and you could not get a charger from the vehicle to charge the leisure battery at the time , renault said anything connected from the vehicle electrical system the my set up would void the warranty as far as I aware it will still void the warranty evan now , if buying a new van from renault . 

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P4dstar

I think I'm going to invest in a Sterling BB1260 like @spruce, have that fitter in place of the current split charge. The battery is currently housed under the passenger seat so If I move that into the system the sterling unit will fit nicely under the seat.

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spruce
31 minutes ago, P4dstar said:

I've found a layman's term video. Unfortunately its bad news, pretty much every single vehicle post 2015 is euro 6. He explains why you shouldn't fit a split charge relay too. Only got 6 minutes in but he's explaining the damage it will cause to the leisure battery and I imagine the damage it will cause to the starter battery will be next.

 

 

 

Yes, every vehicle with a diesel engine sold after September 2016 needs to be Euro 6 emissions compliant.

 

There was no standard among the manufacturers of how they would achieve this.

 

Ford and Renault chose the Regenerative braking route where PSA chose to meet the targets by using Adblue.

 

My gut is telling me that PSA didn't add regenerative braking to the equation but I could be wrong.

 

As I say, best to get a voltmeter that plugs into your cigar lighter and drive around and see what happens. This is a copy of one done by Sterling in a Ford Transit. Look at the graph as see if you voltmeter mimics theirs.

 

 

 

 

 

15 minutes ago, P4dstar said:

I think I'm going to invest in a Sterling BB1260 like @spruce, have that fitter in place of the current split charge. The battery is currently housed under the passenger seat so If I move that into the system the sterling unit will fit nicely under the seat.

I believe it needs to be vertical and needs to be able to breath as it has cooling vents.

Battery to battery chargers.pdf

Edited by spruce

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Part Timer
18 minutes ago, P4dstar said:

I think I'm going to invest in a Sterling BB1260 like @spruce, have that fitter in place of the current split charge. The battery is currently housed under the passenger seat so If I move that into the system the sterling unit will fit nicely under the seat.

I have one as well, PF fitted mine with the tank, and 8 months down the line still running two reels and occasional hot water and no problems.

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spruce
11 minutes ago, Part Timer said:

I have one as well, PF fitted mine with the tank, and 8 months down the line still running two reels and occasional hot water and no problems.

 

Since I've fitted mine i've hardly ever needed to bench charge the leisure battery. Its the van battery that needs charging every now and again. Its original fitted at the factory in 2012.

 

I plug my Intelligent charger into the system. I have a plug with Anderson connector so its quick and easy. I have the positive from this charging connector wired up to the starter battery input side into the B2B unit. This way I'm able to use the B2B charger to really fully charge my leisure battery as well as charging the van's starter battery.

 

Does your Fiat use adblue as well?

Edited by spruce

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P4dstar
16 minutes ago, spruce said:

 

Yes, every vehicle with a diesel engine sold after September 2016 needs to be Euro 6 emissions compliant.

 

There was no standard among the manufacturers of how they would achieve this.Battery to battery chargers.pdf

 

Ford and Renault chose the Regenerative braking route where PSA chose to meet the targets by using Adblue.

Battery to battery chargers.pdf 1.64 MB · 0 downloads

My gut is telling me that PSA didn't add regenerative braking to the equation but I could be wrong.

 

As I say, best to get a voltmeter that plugs into your cigar lighter and drive around and see what happens. This is a copy of one done by Sterling in a Ford Transit. Look at the graph as see if you voltmeter mimics theirs.

I believe it needs to be vertical and needs to be able to breath as it has cooling vents.

I'll snap a pic of under the seat, I think it would be alright, it's not quite how it sounds.

 

With regards to the regenerative test, could I not just drive a few miles, pull up and then test the voltage going through the starter battery? If its down at 12.4 then its regenerative and if its 13.9 its not???

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spruce
1 minute ago, P4dstar said:

I'll snap a pic of under the seat, I think it would be alright, it's not quite how it sounds.

 

With regards to the regenerative test, could I not just drive a few miles, pull up and then test the voltage going through the starter battery? If its down at 12.4 then its regenerative and if its 13.9 its not???

 

Its worth a try

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Part Timer
31 minutes ago, spruce said:

 

Since I've fitted mine i've hardly ever needed to bench charge the leisure battery. Its the van battery that needs charging every now and again. Its original fitted at the factory in 2012.

 

I plug my Intelligent charger into the system. I have a plug with Anderson connector so its quick and easy. I have the positive from this charging connector wired up to the starter battery input side into the B2B unit. This way I'm able to use the B2B charger to really fully charge my leisure battery as well as charging the van's starter battery.

 

Does your Fiat use adblue as well?

I do plenty of miles as well so, touch wood, never needed to charge anything. The Ducato doesn't require adblue, one of the reasons I bought it.

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scottish cleaning service

How long does a van battery last? I got 10yrs out of my van battery before i needed a new one.

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P4dstar
1 hour ago, spruce said:

 

Its worth a try

I'll give it a go. I've also asked for advice on a dispatch owners forum. They probably ain't as helpful as us lot.

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