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Exchef93

Ladder climbs i don't think about



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Cleanco
2 hours ago, Master Jedi Alejandro said:

Folk did what they did because they had too. But we don’t live in that world anymore, not at least in the West. My uncle use to walk along ledges 2 stories up to clean the Otherwise unreachable windows and his boss would pay him a bit extra for it. He admits himself it was mad but it’s what they did. But we don’t have to anymore, we don’t have to risk ourselves to put bread on the table so why do it? It’s not like it’s high reward for high risk. Like it’s been said most WFP cleaners make more than trad.
 

The point about other trades is also not 100% as no trade I can think of (and correct me if I’m wrong) move their ladders anywhere near as much as window cleaners. I watched a guy install a satellite dish up the side of a two story tenement, he did it off ladders. To me it looked mental. But he was obviously safe. But how many does he do a day? Three, four, five at a push? Even if he instead 10 a day he would still be no where near moving his ladders the number of times a window cleaner does! And this is the risk. Ladders are safe when used properly. The problem is we are humans and we make mistakes, not matter how experienced. 
 

However, this all being said it’s opinion for the most part. I have a idea that may or may not work. 😬😂

 

 @Simply Business @Martin Holden you lot are in the business of risk assessment, would you be able to shed any light on it. For instance, is there a higher risk using ladders when window cleaning as suppose a painter?  

I would have thought the opposite. It doesn’t matter how many climbs you do but more importantly and where the risk comes is how long your spending up the ladder and window cleaners probs spend the least. I charge more if the custy requests a trad clean compared to wfp as it takes longer so I make the same weather trad of wfp. I’ve been at this for 20+ years and using wfp for over 15 of them and for me if you don’t use ladders at all then your doing one of two things. Selectively picking work that suits wfp or doing them anyway and making a mess. 

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scottish cleaning service

Climbing ladders is now affecting my hip and my knees. I thought it would never happen but my age is catching up with me. If there is an easier way then I will be taking it, don't really discuss it with my customers now. Some have asked and I say its hot water, like steam cleaning and give me your thoughts on it.

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Exchef93
25 minutes ago, Cleanco said:

 I’ve been at this for 20+ years and using wfp for over 15 of them and for me if you don’t use ladders at all then your doing one of two things. Selectively picking work that suits wfp or doing them anyway and making a mess. 

And if guys with wfp are doing this, that is what keeps trad cleaners in business. Until people with wfp will do a 100% jobs on every single property, trad the odd houses that have leaking windows, or get up to clean the balcony windows, they are always leaving a gap in the market for us.

If they go and do a property which isnt suitable for wfp, do a complete trash job, that customer will never use a windie with wfp again.... even if they move to a more suitable house, the bad taste is still there 

Edited by Exchef93

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dmw
1 hour ago, Exchef93 said:

And if guys with wfp are doing this, that is what keeps trad cleaners in business. Until people with wfp will do a 100% jobs on every single property, trad the odd houses that have leaking windows, or get up to clean the balcony windows, they are always leaving a gap in the market for us.

If they go and do a property which isnt suitable for wfp, do a complete trash job, that customer will never use a windie with wfp again.... even if they move to a more suitable house, the bad taste is still there 

I tradded for 26 years and never got it 100% perfect (none of us do) and I do loads of tall1930s bay windowed semi's and those upstairs  top front bedroom openers only ever got scrimmed over because they were too much of a stretch to squeegee off. 

So I still do those same houses now and I do a better job especially on leadeds. The only issues I ever get are perished seals where you can get runs and are never perfect even with extra care.

You're right about one thing, if a customer has a **** WFP experience that galvanises the customer into thinking it's a poor method. It's up to us all to do the best job we can and change that perception.

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NoName

Once more unto the breach, dear friends...

"No one has to have been harmed for an offence to be committed under HSWA – there only has to be a risk of harm" <https://www.hse.gov.uk/simple-health-safety/law/health-safety-law.htm

If you do not comply with a regulation relevant to your work, you’ll normally be committing a criminal offence<https://www.hse.gov.uk/simple-health-safety/law/health-safety-law.htm

There are many examples within the cleaning industry of accidents involving working at height, for example: whilst working ... from ladders whilst window cleaning... With a little planning and by using competent people (who have the right experience and training) and the right equipment, these accidents could have been avoided.

What you must do

The law

Work at Height Regulations 2005 (as amended)  place duties on employers, the self-employed, and any person that controls the work of others (for example facilities managers or building owners who may contract others to work at height).

 

As part of the Regulations, duty holders must ensure:

...the risks from work at height are assessed and appropriate work equipment is selected and used;

There is a simple hierarchy for managing and selecting equipment for work at height.

Duty holders must:

  1. avoid work at height where they can
  2. use work equipment or other measures to prevent falls where they cannot avoid working at height; and

  3. where they cannot eliminate the risk of a fall, use work equipment or other measures to minimise the distance and consequences of a fall should one occur.

    https://www.hse.gov.uk/cleaning/falls.htm>

  Portable Ladders

Portable ladders have traditionally been used mainly for cleaning domestic premise windows on ground, first and second floors. Whilst use of a ladder should NOT be your automatic choice, it can be the most sensible and practical option for low-risk, short duration tasks.

 https://www.hse.gov.uk/cleaning/topics/window-cleaning.htm>

Almost all falls from ladders happen because the ladder moves unexpectedly. The key factor in preventing falls from ladders is to ensure your ladder is stable whilst being used, through careful consideration of the working conditions and whenever possible tying the ladder to a suitable point to prevent movement.  <https://www.hse.gov.uk/cleaning/topics/window-cleaning.htm

Working at height remains one of the biggest causes of fatalities and major injuries. Common cases include falls from ladders...

 

This section shows how employers can take simple, practical measures to reduce the risk of any of their workers falling while working at height.<https://www.hse.gov.uk/toolbox/height.htm>  

So Exchef/Mike et al it’s NOT a case of WFP running trad guys down per se....

The HSE recognises the very real risk of death/major injury from unsafe ladder use in our specific industry and as a result helpfully advise us, they’ve produced a specific doc for our Window Cleaning Industry..and it says it DOES NOT NEED TO BE DONE THAT WAY and we can reduce or eliminate significant risk from our working days...in your case you could do that job much more safely with a cheap WFP & backpack...(as the HSE are plainly saying) or if you don’t see the advantage you could simply get these fitted to your ladder

https://www.industry-supplies.co.uk/product/ladder-leveller/

Or fix a tie off bolt
Or clean them from inside 
Of have someone foot the ladder (at the very very least)

WFP guys are just trying to ‘help’ you realise you don’t need to work in an unsafe/illegal way. Were all in the same industry, makes sense those who use methods which make them feel safer try to spread the ‘gospel’...stay safe!

(phew I'm off for a lie down)😅

 

 

 

 

 

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Part Timer

The interesting thing about the above is it's the homeowner that has duty of care placed on them. If, God forbid, someone dies cleaning their windows, and it's subsequently proven, due to unsafe practices, they are liable and face all the consequences that go with it 

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scottish cleaning service

When I started cold wfp I was not that impressed with it. Started again but this time my heater was working and away I went again but this time giving the vents a good flush out. Done my house a few times with the hot water and what a difference, can't find a spot of dust on the patio doors even the detail areas. Did all my neighbours white pvc doors and they seem to sparkle white. Don't think anyone can argue against the facts bar it leaves the glass and sill wet.

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mike007
19 hours ago, Iron Giant said:


I would guess on average a trad cleaner would move a ladder on a house 4x lets say and cleans 20 houses a day on average that's 80 ladder moves a day even if it was 60-70 moves a day, no other trade would move there ladder as much within any working day as a trad window cleaner, so the risk factor would be higher
 

A pro golfer sets up his tee  and himself a hundred of times a day....a pro Trad windie sets up his ladder and himself likewise!!!!

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Iron Giant
11 minutes ago, mike007 said:

A pro golfer sets up his tee  and himself a hundred of times a day....a pro Trad windie sets up his ladder and himself likewise!!!!


Yes but a pro golfer keeps there feet firmly on the ground, just like wfper 😅

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mike007
17 hours ago, scottish cleaning service said:

Climbing ladders is now affecting my hip and my knees. I thought it would never happen but my age is catching up with me. If there is an easier way then I will be taking it, don't really discuss it with my customers now. Some have asked and I say its hot water, like steam cleaning and give me your thoughts on it.

Playing saturday and sunday league football, martial arts, running etc and work have together with age affected my body too, just normal.Though small price to pay for the enjoyment I got in return.

Thing is with the Government pushing the retirement age ever higher, they forget the people who have physical jobs are clapped out body wise from a lifetime of graft....fine if your a office worker at a desk shuffling papers your entire career, but if you worked on a building site or a foundry etc...or maybe a windie (either sort) it,s different. We are like old cars...break down more often than newer models.

  

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mike007
12 hours ago, Part Timer said:

The interesting thing about the above is it's the homeowner that has duty of care placed on them. If, God forbid, someone dies cleaning their windows, and it's subsequently proven, due to unsafe practices, they are liable and face all the consequences that go with it 

Told that several times when on H&S courses in past.

Also as I mentioned somewhere before, We all legally have a Duty of Care for ourselves and others.

12 hours ago, NoName said:

Once more unto the breach, dear friends...

"No one has to have been harmed for an offence to be committed under HSWA – there only has to be a risk of harm" <https://www.hse.gov.uk/simple-health-safety/law/health-safety-law.htm

If you do not comply with a regulation relevant to your work, you’ll normally be committing a criminal offence<https://www.hse.gov.uk/simple-health-safety/law/health-safety-law.htm

There are many examples within the cleaning industry of accidents involving working at height, for example: whilst working ... from ladders whilst window cleaning... With a little planning and by using competent people (who have the right experience and training) and the right equipment, these accidents could have been avoided.

What you must do

 

 

The law

 

 

Work at Height Regulations 2005 (as amended)  place duties on employers, the self-employed, and any person that controls the work of others (for example facilities managers or building owners who may contract others to work at height).

 

As part of the Regulations, duty holders must ensure:

 

 

...the risks from work at height are assessed and appropriate work equipment is selected and used;

There is a simple hierarchy for managing and selecting equipment for work at height.

 

 

Duty holders must:

 

 

  1. avoid work at height where they can
  2. use work equipment or other measures to prevent falls where they cannot avoid working at height; and

     

     

  3. where they cannot eliminate the risk of a fall, use work equipment or other measures to minimise the distance and consequences of a fall should one occur.

     

    https://www.hse.gov.uk/cleaning/falls.htm>

     

     

  Portable Ladders

 

Portable ladders have traditionally been used mainly for cleaning domestic premise windows on ground, first and second floors. Whilst use of a ladder should NOT be your automatic choice, it can be the most sensible and practical option for low-risk, short duration tasks.

 

 https://www.hse.gov.uk/cleaning/topics/window-cleaning.htm>

Almost all falls from ladders happen because the ladder moves unexpectedly. The key factor in preventing falls from ladders is to ensure your ladder is stable whilst being used, through careful consideration of the working conditions and whenever possible tying the ladder to a suitable point to prevent movement.  <https://www.hse.gov.uk/cleaning/topics/window-cleaning.htm

Working at height remains one of the biggest causes of fatalities and major injuries. Common cases include falls from ladders...

 

 

This section shows how employers can take simple, practical measures to reduce the risk of any of their workers falling while working at height.<https://www.hse.gov.uk/toolbox/height.htm>  

 

 

So Exchef/Mike et al it’s NOT a case of WFP running trad guys down per se....

The HSE recognises the very real risk of death/major injury from unsafe ladder use in our specific industry and as a result helpfully advise us, they’ve produced a specific doc for our Window Cleaning Industry..and it says it DOES NOT NEED TO BE DONE THAT WAY and we can reduce or eliminate significant risk from our working days...in your case you could do that job much more safely with a cheap WFP & backpack...(as the HSE are plainly saying) or if you don’t see the advantage you could simply get these fitted to your ladder

 

 

https://www.industry-supplies.co.uk/product/ladder-leveller/

Or fix a tie off bolt
Or clean them from inside 
Of have someone foot the ladder (at the very very least)

WFP guys are just trying to ‘help’ you realise you don’t need to work in an unsafe/illegal way. Were all in the same industry, makes sense those who use methods which make them feel safer try to spread the ‘gospel’...stay safe!

 

 

(phew I'm off for a lie down)😅

 

 

 

 

 

"it can be the most sensible and practical option for low-risk, short duration tasks"

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P4dstar
7 minutes ago, Dave B said:

You can't argue with statistics whatever your opinion is.

 

Screenshot_20200112-115057_Samsung Internet.jpg

Even higher than roofing mate. Just reads that to the wife, she was not impressed.

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solarpanelcleaningltd
On 11/01/2020 at 14:15, Exchef93 said:

And if guys with wfp are doing this, that is what keeps trad cleaners in business. Until people with wfp will do a 100% jobs on every single property, trad the odd houses that have leaking windows, or get up to clean the balcony windows, they are always leaving a gap in the market for us.

If they go and do a property which isnt suitable for wfp, do a complete trash job, that customer will never use a windie with wfp again.... even if they move to a more suitable house, the bad taste is still there 


 

When you’re cleaning 100%, how do clean a velux? Be great to hear.

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Exchef93
33 minutes ago, solarpanelcleaningltd said:


 

When you’re cleaning 100%, how do clean a velux? Be great to hear.

I didnt mean doing a job to a standard of 100% clean, i meant doing 100% of jobs asked of you, including going over balconies or gates and tradding leaking windows. Not turning away jobs because of the inconvenience of doing it

 

Buy i clean a velux by walking on the roof, or if its closer to the gutter, put the ladder up above the gutter line, or doing it from inside out

Edited by Exchef93

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dmw
18 minutes ago, solarpanelcleaningltd said:


And windows over conservatories....?

When you’re cleaning 100%, how do clean a velux? Be great to hear.

 

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Exchef93
13 minutes ago, dmw said:

And windows over conservatories....?

From inside out? If its a flat conny you can stand on the bars aswell

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Dave B
11 minutes ago, Exchef93 said:

From inside out? If its a flat conny you can stand on the bars aswell

Point proved.. no more to be said.

Standing on conny roof bars isn't dangerous at all.🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣.

What a load of 💩

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Exchef93
1 minute ago, Dave B said:

Point proved.. no more to be said.

Standing on conny roof bars isn't dangerous at all.🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣.

What a load of 💩

Of course it can be dangerous... its not exactly the ideal thing you would want to do, its much easier and safer to do it from inside out? And there is only the odd one which you could even consider doing it. 99% of the time we'd just tell the customer we cant do it and they  would be fine

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Part Timer
13 minutes ago, Exchef93 said:

And there is only the odd one which you could even consider doing it. 99% of the time we'd just tell the customer we cant do it and they  would be fine

You've claimed to be part of the "clean up crew" and WFP guys are selective about what work they do and then you admit to not doing windows over a conservatory and claim to have access to WFP equipment 🤣

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Exchef93
Just now, Part Timer said:

You've claimed to be part of the "clean up crew" and WFP guys are selective about what work they do and then you admit to not doing windows over a conservatory and claim to have access to WFP equipment 🤣

Yes, that's how all our rounds were put together back 10+ years ago when the other vehicles changed over to wfp, but the other crews still climb over gates and use ladders to access places on whatever jobs they pick up now

 

 

we don't get any work off the other crews now because people who dont want wfp wouldnt be asking someone with a wfp to clean there windows?

 

And yes we have a little portable system in the back of our car, but if the custy doesnt have an outside tap then you can't use it, plus im not wasting my time setting it up for 1 window that i couldn't reach rather than just telling them i can't do it.

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solarpanelcleaningltd

Why not offer both squeegee and wfp? And then explain to the customer the reason for your choice, ie safety or practicality. Plus it’s good to be able to do 100% of a job and not leave windows or indeed balconies out. I think there’s more skill involved with using a mop and blade but it’s certainly more dangerous to use ladders all day. To question that is foolish. I have to keep a record of all ladder checks that are undertaken, as with any working at heights kit. Hope you check yours too!

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Exchef93
1 minute ago, solarpanelcleaningltd said:

Why not offer both squeegee and wfp? And then explain to the customer the reason for your choice, ie safety or practicality. Plus it’s good to be able to do 100% of a job and not leave windows or indeed balconies out. I think there’s more skill involved with using a mop and blade but it’s certainly more dangerous to use ladders all day. To question that is foolish. I have to keep a record of all ladder checks that are undertaken, as with any working at heights kit. Hope you check yours too!

We have done, i even do have some customers which i use the pole on where is can be more convenient. But the vast majority of our custys don't want wfp but can acdent it on the odd few.

 

And my comment about doing 100% of jobs didnt mean 100% of every house, but instead. If the job involved climbing over a gate, just get on and climb over a gate, if someone with a wfp refuses to climb over a gate, that custy is going to find someone who will which will normally be a tradder, thus creating a market for someone to be using ladders still, thats the point i was trying to make previously, but i might have worded it wrong in the original post

 

Of course it's more dangerous, ive never said its not, but its just another part of the job and its widely more accepted down here.

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NoName

Chimney sweeps used to employ children to climb up then whilst holding a brush. That’s how they ‘always did a proper job’ since Roman times.  Annoyingly they kept dying...rarely living pass adulthood/middle age, getting stuck, suffocated, fell, burned to death, got cancer (soot is carcinogenic). Out of concern for the employees welfare the Government banned this practice and some bright bloke invented (everything was invented by blokes back then 😉) the idea of staying safe on the ground and using a brush on the end of a long pole...ringing any bells? 

No doubt many old chimney sweeps resisted saying, “long pole with a brush ain’t as good as someone (poor soul risking their life) doing it the way we’ve always have done it...

How many sweeps still employ kids today? I bet it's zero (except China 😉)....because they all recognised it no longer needs to done that way! Given the option, why would you use to risk your life for relatively little economic return – when you simply don’t need to...things have moved on and we have safe tools and methods now.

“When planning and organising window cleaning you must avoid work at height where it is reasonably practicable to do so, for example by using telescopic water fed poles or cleaning windows from the inside.” https://www.hse.gov.uk/cleaning/topics/window-cleaning.htm

You can lead a horse to water...but you can’t make 'em drink!

ExCher I hope you have a long career...but you stacking the odds against yourself... I have picked up at least 10-20 custy's (from all over my area, i.e it's not just one bloke) who so say..'yeah my guy stop calling because he broke his arm/leg/had fall etc and is packing it in'...you are playing Russian roulette with your unsafe ladder use...I hope you don't have reason to regret it...join us...come over to on the dark side..

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Exchef93
26 minutes ago, NoName said:

 ExCher I hope you have a long career...but you stacking the odds against yourself... I have picked up at least 10-20 custy's (from all over my area, i.e it's not just one bloke) who so say..'yeah my guy stop calling because he broke his arm/leg/had fall etc and is packing it in'...you are playing Russian roulette with your unsafe ladder use...I hope you don't have reason to regret it...join us...come over to on the dark side..

Its not a career i actually ment to head down, i just started doing it temporarily until i found what i wanted to do... oops...

 

Its going to happen at some point, the guy i work with is within a couple of years of retiring and then i wont being going out laddering like this on my own, i will eventually have to go over to wfp, but the only problem that comes from that is working out how to fill it.

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NoName

ExChef :Welcome:

Google 'Spotless water' they have covered the uk in a network small shipping containers (mainly in cities) which generate pure water and sell it like a petrol pump...you could start buying it...(google local window cleaning suppliers who also do this) or you build you own static system at home...in a garden shed etc. Or get a system fitted to a van. (lot's of guys offer coming to you to supply and fit what you need or the big boys do it all at their premises. For a van system you'll need access to a tap near your van. 

 

Have a good read of the relevant threads, lot's of great pointers/advice

 

After you've done it while you won't look back (I don't know any who have reverted to manual, queue 1000's of posts now saying just this 😉 )

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Exchef93
38 minutes ago, NoName said:

ExChef :Welcome:

Google 'Spotless water' they have covered the uk in a network small shipping containers (mainly in cities) which generate pure water and sell it like a petrol pump...you could start buying it...(google local window cleaning suppliers who also do this) or you build you own static system at home...in a garden shed etc. Or get a system fitted to a van. (lot's of guys offer coming to you to supply and fit what you need or the big boys do it all at their premises. For a van system you'll need access to a tap near your van. 

 

Have a good read of the relevant threads, lot's of great pointers/advice

 

After you've done it while you won't look back (I don't know any who have reverted to manual, queue 1000's of posts now saying just this 😉 )

The closest spotless water "coming soon" is 40 minutes drive away from where i live so unfortunatly that's not a possibility even if they did have a site set up. I dont live anywhere near a city.

 

And unfortunatly we only have one window cleaning suppliers where we buy everything from, they supply systems for wfp but not a "filling service"

 

My house isnt on a road and has no vehicular access to it, i have to park my car and walk to my house. If i was to run a hose to my car, it would cross shared pathways, a pavement, and depending on where there was a space on my street, accross the road. Somehwere between 30-60m from garden to car.

 

And failing all of that, im only an employee.

 

We've looked at potentially changing for years, but there just isnt a feasible way to do it at this point in time

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NoName

Hmm...odds are stacked against you pal...

 

Ok so you could contact all local windies (google) ask them if they generate water...some may be prepared to sell you some, most will generate straight into van but some will do it at home into a static tank (but it will be sized to serve them but you could see if you can buy another/bigger tank and ask them to fill it / add it into their system (long shot I know), bigger boys with a couple of vans or more will more likely to have a large static tank they keep filled and draw from it.

 

Could you rent a lockup/unit/garage or get a static tank fitted somewhere else (corner of some else unit etc) and then fill it up from there...I guess they'll be a few people who'll take a few quid to house it for you... (you could even start selling yourself - but you live in middle of nowhere so unlikely high demand)

 

Could you advertise that you need space to generate water and see if someone will 'host' the system...a friend/neighbour etc?

 

That's all the obvious thoughts...but post a separate post on here and ask if anyone has had a similar issue and if/how they overcame it? All the best

 

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NoName

Get tank at home..then get sack tuck (or powered muck truck 😉/donkey/etc) and ferry the water to a tank in van...or get a tank at home filled and then each morning run out  30/60m hose and pump it into a tank in the back of the van...I know you can shift 1000l in 10/15mins so doable especially if you get a high flow pump. Just pop up a few signs and let ever know what you're doing so as to avoid trips...yeah that would totally work...and stop be an employee and work for your self!

Fill up when it's quiet could be when you get back at end of day then is best time to fill up (it would have generated during the day) or when you first wake up etc...or nuclear option move 😉 

 

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P4dstar
2 hours ago, NoName said:

“When planning and organising window cleaning you must avoid work at height where it is reasonably practicable to do so, for example by using telescopic water fed poles or cleaning windows from the inside.” https://www.hse.gov.uk/cleaning/topics/window-cleaning.htm

Thats what I was trying to quote earlier in this thread. I think the bit I was looking for was "The Health and Safety at Work etc. Act 1974 (HSW Act) requires employers to ensure, so far as is reasonably practicable, the health, safety and welfare of their employees and to ensure that those affected by their activities are not exposed to risk".

I think @Exchef93 took my banter how it was meant but I there is a serious point. As an employee your boss shouldn't be expecting you to climb ladders anymore. If people don't want wfp then **** em, the ones that can't be converted are few and far between.

With regards to filling up its really something that the company you work for should be sorting. If the other vans are filling up the chances are you could go to them and do the same. If not there are a plethora of other avenues to explore.

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