Happy Canvassing

[peter rogers]

Ok ;-)

 

[CleanPay]

Interesting experiences.

To put succinctly, results certainly differ and after many, many years canvassing for cleaning companies it is clear that most of the successful results come down to the cleaning company and correct information gathered at the point of sale.

We have clients who have returned several times for years, and they seem to get it right, or as many here have rightly mentioned... Managed expectations for your ROI should be realistic inline with your long term plans, not just short term.

Marketing costs to acquire customers are different per campaign from all canvassing companies, we price fair and try our best to factor in possible customer cancellations. Still this approach far out weighs most other marketing activities to acquire customers.

We also have had clients who would not return to our services for many reasons, and therefore possibly expectations were not met from both sides.

Some suggestions on what we think would be the perfect recipe for a canvassing campaign to be successful are:

Geographic location.

Demographic.

Clean frequency.

Customers expectations from previous experiences with cleaners.

Method of clean

Excellent communication skills from all parties involved, ie, cleaner, canvasser and customer.

Professional approach.

Business tenacity.

Many more I'm sure. This has become an Interesting thread.

 

[Solarpanelcleanington]

I used happy canvassing and have about 50% 'good jobs' after 6 months. But gained some more from working a different part of town.

The guys are right, it's about expectations. I will use them again when I need to.

 

[Green Pro Clean Ltd]

My favorite canvasser (and when I see him I will run him over) was a freelancer that was paid on a per deal basis.

I gave him a generic price list and off he went. Came back with plenty of jobs all 25% or more below what they should have been.

I would say.... "that house is a least £25"

His reply 'I dont think it's worth that and I price the jobs at what I think they're worth not what you think they're worth'

He seemed surprised when I told him to £uck off! /emoticons/smile.png)

 

[Amazin]

My favorite canvasser (and when I see him I will run him over) was a freelancer that was paid on a per deal basis.
I gave him a generic price list and off he went. Came back with plenty of jobs all 25% or more below what they should have been.

I would say.... "that house is a least £25"

His reply 'I dont think it's worth that and I price the jobs at what I think they're worth not what you think they're worth'

He seemed surprised when I told him to £uck off! /emoticons/smile.png)

loooooool

 

[Amazin]

If they really want a regular cleaner they will happily wait a couple of weeks as long as you inform them.

I personally still think few weeks is too long and not professional imo but I know what you're trying to say.

Ive come to the conclusion this is not really the canvassers fault mind, its just the nature of canvassing itself.

Exactly.
This is what I meant when I said having sensible expectations.

I can certainly see the importance of "having realistic expectations" but the price they charge should be adjusted accordingly. If they say to you that for £1300 they will get you £500 monthly regular work after and will replace any drop outs if it falls below that amount then they should stick to their words. Otherwise there should be some refunds

 

[Goodkingnige]

Speaking as a canvasser (who’s never cleaned a window in his life) I’d agree pretty much with what CleanPay says.

Realistically, you can expect to be paying on average somewhere between 2 and 3 cleans for every long term regular piece of work booked by a canvassing firm. It’s simply not feasible for a canvassing firm to operate below that level of return. In other words, in a worst case scenario and taking a specific clean in isolation you can expect to have to wait as much as 4 months before you break even on your investment (ie canvasser books a £20 clean which costs you £60, first clean on day zero, second clean after 8 weeks, third clean after 16 weeks).

Different canvassing firms operate in different ways but we’re all aiming for that target figure of 2-3 times the clean price. Apart from running my own canvassing business I’ve subcontracted to several other canvassing companies so I do have a good idea of how different canvassing firms operate.

You can, of course, employ your own canvassers – but they’re a bloody nightmare to manage. Many of them come from canvassing for the likes of Anglian Windows (or Zenith Windows, or fillnameinhere Windows) where the name of the game is “throw enough **** and some of it will stick”. What GPCL says about his “favourite canvasser” is not unusual. The most common FB post among canvassers is “smashed it” meaning they’ve hit an area and booked a dozen or more of whatever it is they’re selling – what you won’t see is a follow up post admitting that somewhere between 0 and 1 of those actually translated into sales (or even payment to the canvasser).

As CleanPay says – the most important thing is communicating what it is that you want from the canvass company, and listening to what they (the canvass company) have to say about how to approach the customer. The more time you invest in that initial sit-down with the canvass company, the more likely it is that you’ll get the results you want.

 

[adamangler]

Speaking as a canvasser (who’s never cleaned a window in his life) I’d agree pretty much with what CleanPay says.
Realistically, you can expect to be paying on average somewhere between 2 and 3 cleans for every long term regular piece of work booked by a canvassing firm. It’s simply not feasible for a canvassing firm to operate below that level of return. In other words, in a worst case scenario and taking a specific clean in isolation you can expect to have to wait as much as 4 months before you break even on your investment (ie canvasser books a £20 clean which costs you £60, first clean on day zero, second clean after 8 weeks, third clean after 16 weeks).

Different canvassing firms operate in different ways but we’re all aiming for that target figure of 2-3 times the clean price. Apart from running my own canvassing business I’ve subcontracted to several other canvassing companies so I do have a good idea of how different canvassing firms operate.

You can, of course, employ your own canvassers – but they’re a bloody nightmare to manage. Many of them come from canvassing for the likes of Anglian Windows (or Zenith Windows, or fillnameinhere Windows) where the name of the game is “throw enough **** and some of it will stick”. What GPCL says about his “favourite canvasser” is not unusual. The most common FB post among canvassers is “smashed it” meaning they’ve hit an area and booked a dozen or more of whatever it is they’re selling – what you won’t see is a follow up post admitting that somewhere between 0 and 1 of those actually translated into sales (or even payment to the canvasser).

As CleanPay says – the most important thing is communicating what it is that you want from the canvass company, and listening to what they (the canvass company) have to say about how to approach the customer. The more time you invest in that initial sit-down with the canvass company, the more likely it is that you’ll get the results you want.

What I will say is having used a fair few canvassers is that there is still a gap in the market for a really good canvassing company to exploit. I think theres many complaints pros and cons to how most companies operate.

The best profiatable way for a window cleaner to employ a canvasser is on an hourly wage.

Using a company is fine but you have to be prepared for the fact it will take many months to break even.

Say you pay 2x

That's 2 months then half drop off so that's 4 months then you've the overhead of travelling to them and using your time and water whilst you are not making a profit so it's probably 6 months by that time more will have dropped off.

I would say it could be 6 months to a year before your investment starts to pay off which I think is fine if you have a high turnover and maybe a few employees and yiu don't notice the hit. When you are starting out and not making so much it can be much more challenging and do g it yourself or paying a young lad to help would be much better.

Like I said there's still a gap in the market for someone to really make some money from canvassing it's just going to take someone to come up with a pricing and replacement system that both makes them a profit and make the window cleaner a profit.

It strikes me that canvassers are not doing enough to look after there clients and are some taking the money and running and generally operating a poor service when it comes to problems.

 

[peter rogers]

What I will say is having used a fair few canvassers is that there is still a gap in the market for a really good canvassing company to exploit. I think theres many complaints pros and cons to how most companies operate.
The best profiatable way for a window cleaner to employ a canvasser is on an hourly wage.

Using a company is fine but you have to be prepared for the fact it will take many months to break even.

Say you pay 2x

That's 2 months then half drop off so that's 4 months then you've the overhead of travelling to them and using your time and water whilst you are not making a profit so it's probably 6 months by that time more will have dropped off.

I would say it could be 6 months to a year before your investment starts to pay off which I think is fine if you have a high turnover and maybe a few employees and yiu don't notice the hit. When you are starting out and not making so much it can be much more challenging and do g it yourself or paying a young lad to help would be much better.

Like I said there's still a gap in the market for someone to really make some money from canvassing it's just going to take someone to come up with a pricing and replacement system that both makes them a profit and make the window cleaner a profit.

It strikes me that canvassers are not doing enough to look after there clients and are some taking the money and running and generally operating a poor service when it comes to problems.

if carlsberg did moaning... they probably wouldnt be as good as you lol

tell ya u r a hard person to please it doesnt take 6 months - 1 year to get earning of it thyere are alot of canvassers that make it work like @Whizz\-Bizz and @CleanPay etc and paul dale to name a few

no canvasser who makes a living of it will work for an hourly wage if i was to canvass for you id charge x3

with extra canvassed for drop outs etc but in general i have said it before u take to long @adamangler to clean the work thats been canvassed u can spot them a mile off also the ones who prefer 2 monthly to monthly ..but which wud u prefer someone signed up as monthly which in 4 moinths will drop off or a regular 2 monthly clean that pays on time

canvassing is a 100 % PROVEN METHOD TO BUILDING A ROUND UP FAST

yes u have to step on some **** on the way to the yellow brick road but it hapens

 

[adamangler]

if carlsberg did moaning... they probably wouldnt be as good as you lol

tell ya u r a hard person to please it doesnt take 6 months - 1 year to get earning of it thyere are alot of canvassers that make it work like @Whizz\-Bizz and @CleanPay etc and paul dale to name a few

no canvasser who makes a living of it will work for an hourly wage if i was to canvass for you id charge x3

with extra canvassed for drop outs etc but in general i have said it before u take to long @adamangler to clean the work thats been canvassed u can spot them a mile off also the ones who prefer 2 monthly to monthly ..but which wud u prefer someone signed up as monthly which in 4 moinths will drop off or a regular 2 monthly clean that pays on time

canvassing is a 100 % PROVEN METHOD TO BUILDING A ROUND UP FAST

yes u have to step on some **** on the way to the yellow brick road but it hapens

yes it does take 6 months plus beacuse of the reasons stated and ive experienced it.

its not really moaning when your handing over thousands of pounds to these people, it can be done better is what im saying and no one ive used does it perfect, for the most part results have been below par.

of course no canvasser who is self employed will do it hourly im on about employing someone on an hourly wage big difference, it will work out cheaper.

No i dont take too long to clean them, the first canvasser i used he set them up on an agreed date, which was a few days after. The next canvasser told the customer they would be cleaned within two weeks and i would text when due.

Yes its a proven method, and i agree you have to be prepared to work through the ****, im aware of this all im saying is i think theres a gap in the market for a really good company who deliver better results.

 

[Goodkingnige]

You’ve misunderstood me Adamangler.

What I mean is that the net amount you pay will be between 2 and 3 cleans for every piece of regular work booked. That’s after accounting for drop-offs etc.

Different canvassing companies have different arrangements – I know one that offers refunds if you don’t get to the guaranteed minimum number of cleans on a property; another one canvasses for and books front-only cleans – so if you convert it to a whole house clean you’ve effectively bought the lead at a discounted rate. I have my own system that means that the window cleaner ends up paying about 2 and a quarter times the value of the regular work booked.

The end result is always the same, or rather the target result is always the same – for every £1000 of bookings made by the canvasser that are still on the round 6 months later, it’s going to cost you between £2000 and £3000. That compares with buying a similar sized round for £4000-£6000.

Also, if you’re getting a 50% drop off rate from leads bought from a canvass company then it’s a **** canvass company, or you’ve not been specific enough about the type of leads you want (or alternatively you’re a terrible window cleaner!).

As for paying a canvasser an hourly (or weekly) wage – I agree that has advantages. The canvassers I employ get a say in which way they want to be paid – either a fixed weekly wage (which means they get paid for days when they don’t work at all – if the weather’s too bad for instance, or if I haven’t got a driver available to get them to prop); or on commission (so they get paid for work booked but only if it’s of suitable quality – and their potential earnings are much higher than the fixed weekly wage); or sometimes a mixture of the two.

But it really doesn’t matter which way a canvasser gets paid – they are always a pain to manage. Most of them (but not all and definitely not any of the people who are actually running the canvass company) are doing it because – to be blunt – they can’t do anything else. Their lifestyle prevents them holding down any other kind of job. (I'm being coy here but anyone who's ever worked with canvassers knows exactly what I mean!).

It sounds like you’ve had a bad experience with a canvass company – I’ve had bad experiences with window cleaners (not paying for the canvass work and refusing to talk to me about why – but that’s in the hands of the courts now).

 

[adamangler]

No I've not misunderstood you @Goodkingnige

My post was aimed at Mr Pete rogers who I think just likes to disagree with me.

I have had some bad experiences with more than one canvassing company however I would call it a miss management of expectations. Now that I have more experience I realise the reRenton rate is on the hands of the gods.

You say 1000 of work from 2-3k 6 months down the line and I would agree with that 30-50% sounds about right

The only point I was making was I believe (having used 4 canvassing companies now) that there is still room to improve the service both in terms of managing expectations and dealing with problems such as drop offs etc.

For example I have had issues with drop offs where the canvasser tries to suggest it's my fault (even when I've had texts on my phone to prove) I've had issues getting customers replacex and had problems getting refunds. (The last canvasser I used I am having to pursue in small claims for not supplying the amount of wok paid for and agreed). I've also had issues where I've said I do not want any have to be in for access jobs. Low and behold you turn up and can't get round the back. Or where youve said you only accept payment online and the customer says to you oh he said you would collect. You get ones where you go clean them and they say I never agreed I said I would think about it. Theres a whole host of issues that makes the whole process a chore in its self and ends up costing you far more than 2 or 3 cleans in all the messers and stuff you have to try and rd rectify yourself.

Like I said I'm not saying all this is bad per say and put a lot of it down the nature of the job however o do believe it can be done better mainly from a communication and expectation management point of view before the canvassing is carried out.

Pete rogers as far as Im aware hasn't used any of the well known canvassers I have so I'm not sure his argument is relevant.

 

[peter rogers]

I go based on what I hear from everyone

And no I don't disagree with u for the sake of it

It's just you need to have a firm grip on it mate. Wen I was canvassing in spring u need to be on top of them. Set out rules etc. Remember u r Payton them.

Sent using the Window Cleaning Forums app

 

[adamangler]

sounds great in principle, not as easy in practice - setting out rules that is, its often too late once problems arise.

Anyway im out of the discussion before its gets daft /emoticons/wink.png

 

[Chris33]

I love reading Adam and Pete's love affair on here!! Haaha..

 

[peter rogers]

It's a constructive argument. That I feel both of us get. I know he has had bad experiences but we all have.

Sent using the Window Cleaning Forums app

 

[Chris33]

Only messing Pete,I know from reading the posts your trying to help

 

[Goodkingnige]

OK - while we're on the subject of canvassing.........

I'm not (and never have been) a window cleaner so I don't know what challenges you face. I know the basics of course (you prefer easy access middle-class bungalows with off-street parking, and newly fitted uPVC windows, where the customer pays by DD on a four-weekly cycle :inlove.

I'm a canvasser (we prefer long rows of council houses with short front paths - or doors straight onto the street - and a window cleaner who doesn't care if the customer wants 4 weekly, 8 weekly or even 12 weekly and will take payment by cash or cheque /emoticons/biggrin.png).

But in the real world - I need to make a living, and that means keeping the customer (ie the window cleaner) satisfied while not spending a whole week canvassing an estate of retirement bungalows to get 3 bookings.

Usually I (and every other canvass firm that I know of) work by agreeing with a windy an amount of work needed in an area, and the spec for the type of work, then sending my lads off to go find it - in other words, a pseudo-contract. (Yes, I know some canvass companies take payment first so it's not a pseudo but a real contract but I don't work that way; you pay after the first clean is done and you've had the opportunity to suss out the lie of the land).

Here's my question: I'm toying with the idea of working more like a shop - that is, I'll go and get the bookings before I have a windy to sell them to.

Is there a reason that couldn't work? If I were to call you up (as a windy) and say I've got 6 first cleans for a so far unspecified day next week in X area; three are private of which two are full access and one is semi-accessible but customer is elderly and likely to be in; the other three are council - all of which are full access. Here's the prices I've given each of them. Is there a reason why you can't choose which you want and pick a day for me to telephone confirm them for and include them? Is there something different about doing first cleans that means you need to take different equipment with you?

I'm asking because I don't know. I agree with the posters who say there's a problem with canvassers getting far too much junk (I employ them so I know all their sly tricks) but also with the posters who say that canvassing is by far the most effective way of getting new business.

 

[Green Pro Clean Ltd]

Their lifestyle prevents them holding down any other kind of job.

Alcoholic drug addled womanisers. (Like to think of themselvesbas players)

I go based on what I hear from everyone

Perhaps Pete try basing it on you own personal experiences? You sing praises of Whizzbizz and Cleanpay but unless I am truly mistaken you have never used either.

I'm a canvasser (we prefer long rows of council houses with short front paths - or doors straight onto the street

If that's what you favor then I can respect that but I loath those properties and do only target large privately owned properties. Personal experience has proven these are always more profitable in the long run.

 

[Green Pro Clean Ltd]

OK - while we're on the subject of canvassing.........
I'm not (and never have been) a window cleaner so I don't know what challenges you face. I know the basics of course (you prefer easy access middle-class bungalows with off-street parking, and newly fitted uPVC windows, where the customer pays by DD on a four-weekly cycle :inlove.

I'm a canvasser (we prefer long rows of council houses with short front paths - or doors straight onto the street - and a window cleaner who doesn't care if the customer wants 4 weekly, 8 weekly or even 12 weekly and will take payment by cash or cheque /emoticons/biggrin.png).

But in the real world - I need to make a living, and that means keeping the customer (ie the window cleaner) satisfied while not spending a whole week canvassing an estate of retirement bungalows to get 3 bookings.

Usually I (and every other canvass firm that I know of) work by agreeing with a windy an amount of work needed in an area, and the spec for the type of work, then sending my lads off to go find it - in other words, a pseudo-contract. (Yes, I know some canvass companies take payment first so it's not a pseudo but a real contract but I don't work that way; you pay after the first clean is done and you've had the opportunity to suss out the lie of the land).

Here's my question: I'm toying with the idea of working more like a shop - that is, I'll go and get the bookings before I have a windy to sell them to.

Is there a reason that couldn't work? If I were to call you up (as a windy) and say I've got 6 first cleans for a so far unspecified day next week in X area; three are private of which two are full access and one is semi-accessible but customer is elderly and likely to be in; the other three are council - all of which are full access. Here's the prices I've given each of them. Is there a reason why you can't choose which you want and pick a day for me to telephone confirm them for and include them? Is there something different about doing first cleans that means you need to take different equipment with you?

I'm asking because I don't know. I agree with the posters who say there's a problem with canvassers getting far too much junk (I employ them so I know all their sly tricks) but also with the posters who say that canvassing is by far the most effective way of getting new business.

No reason at all it couldn't work Nige but here's the facts (according to Green )

On any given day I can get online and buy established work for just 3x cleans. I would do so expecting about 20% drop off / ditched by me.

These are already cleaned windows that have an established history of wanting a window cleaner. The first clean will be brief as they have been maintained to at least some standard.

Canvass companies usually want 2.5 to 3 X for new work in many cases (I speak with experience) ditched windows in poor ass roads with lousy access. Why would I pay 1x for that? Let alone 3x?

Yes on a first clean it does take longer for the window cleaner that does a professional job and yes more equipment involved, Ubix or other soaps of choice to help get the scum off faster, scrapers for the paint spots etc and so on as any windy worth his salt knows that a thorough, deep, professional first clean makes all future cleans a dodle.

Schedules? 4 weeks? 8 weeks? Etc etc......

Not fussed but why should a less regular, hence less profitable client (8 week) get the same favorable prices of a 4 weekly customer?

As for payment.. that is entirely up ti the windy how they want paying. I ONLY accept GoCardless now with the sole exceptions of Grannies that are always home and have no idea of online business.

I had a canvasser work for me and he wanted just £20 per customer.

I said no probs and and made it £20 per customer or 1x value of first clean which ever was the greater. So in his interest to get the higher values

Now I do charge a minimum of £20 for a first clean anyhow.

Still it wasnt long before I would start hearing phrases from his sign ups saying things like...

'He said a one off' 'He said as and when' 'He said just a trial' etc etc.

Now as well as a window cleaner I am and have been a canvasser so know exactly what is acheivable in my areas at the rates I want and there is no reason he couldn't get 8-10 per day but he thought only way to do so was by being decietful.

He even offered at one point to sell me the customer base of another local windy he had spent time with.

You say you want to build a good and reputable business Nige but you are selling a service you personally have never provided (you said you never cleaned windows) so in my opinion you can't truly understand what it is your offering or how to charge accordingly (AS I SAID JUST MY OPINION)

I am now off on annual vacation till Oct 10th but leave you an open invite to come by for a day or two and work alongside me on the glass so you can truly see it from a window cleaners point of view.

 

[Andy]

Green did you and jade finally part company.