4040 membrane and Pre Filters

Discussion in 'Water Fed Pole Cleaning' started by jason1965, Jun 3, 2016.

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  1. jason1965

    jason1965 Member
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    Good evening all, i am about the replace my 4040 membrane, i was just wondering what one would you recommend and also what are the best pre filters ie sediment and carbon block.
     
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  2. spruce

    spruce Grand Master
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    Depending on tap water pressure and flow it would be either an HF4 or HF5. My water pressure is 50 psi and I successfully use an HF5 without a booster pump. At the tap we get 13 liters of water a minute.

    A Fiberdyne carbon filter has a pretty good service life and that's what I use. I also use an ordinary 5 micron sediment filter. I have 20" prefilters and buy those prefilters from Gardiners. They sell both sizes.

    A fiberdyne carbon block can also be used as a sediment filter if your water is sediment free. In other words, you only need one filter for both sediment and carbon block. Our water sometimes is full of sediment so a cheap sediment filter saves sediment clogging up the expensive Fiberdyne filter. (I have been know to replace a sediment filter every month to 1 Fiberdyne every 3 months.

    A 10" fiberdyne filter is good for a service life of 38000 litres according to the manufacturers and a 20" has a service life of 78,000 liters. This is a total of all the water that passes through the prefilters, ie waste + pure. We go through about 78,000 liters every 3 months.

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  3. spruce

    spruce Grand Master
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    jason1965

    I'm going to expand a bit on the reason for my Fiberdyne carbon block prefilter choice.

    In the early days I ran a 450 GPD RoMan type r/o. I once read somewhere that GAC carbon block filters were better than the ordinary c/b filters available then, so I started using GAC filters. During the time those 3 x 150GPD membranes were in use (6 years) I changed the 10" prefilters every 3 months. We were using slightly more pure water a month than now and the r/o had a 3 to 1 waste to pure preset ratio restrictor. So we used 4 liters of tap water to produce 1 liter of pure.

    Today the two of us use about 13000 liters of pure water a month. If we were using a similar amount with the 450 GPD r/o then we would have used about 155,000 liters of tap water in 3 months.

    When I set this 4040 r/o up I bought some GAC 20" c/b prefilters as I had always done. When I received them I was shocked to have seen an information label inside advising that the 20" GAC filter I had purchased only had a service life of 2,500 gallons US. If I was going to adhere to the service life recommendation then I would have to replace that GAC filter every 10 days.

    I contacted the manufacturer and was told that the service life was 2,500 gallons for both the 20" and the 10" filter. When I queried the service life being the same for both size prefilters didn't make sense to me they didn't bother to respond.

    So my experience was that the single 10" GAC filter had successfully processed 150,000 liters of water every 3 months and had protected my membranes for 6 years. But now I was concerned as replacement 4040 membranes are much more expensive than 3 x 150 GPD membranes on the old r/o. I couldn't take a chance on continuing to use the GAC filters.

    At the time Gardiners didn't sell the Fiberdyne range. Another supplier had a carbon block prefilter with a service life of 150,000 so I purchased 1 of those. Unfortunately, it was a 1 micron where the sediment filter was 5 micron. I hadn't even got through the first month and the 1 micron carbon filter was totally blocked up with sediment that the sediment filter didn't trap.

    Since Gardiners now sell 5 micron Fiberdyne prefilters I haven't had any issues so will continue to use those and replace them according to the manufacturer's recommendations.

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  4. Eviestevie

    Eviestevie Grand Master
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    Sounds like something off terminator salvation
     
  5. jason1965

    jason1965 Member
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    Thank you Spruce so much for the time and effort of replying to my question, it must be my prefilters that are rubbish, i bought 6 prefilters 3 sed and 3 c/b for £35, that works out at just under £6 each, i do live in a hard water area, my tds from tap reads about 286, and last week i changed both prefilters and already the sediment filter is really dirty, and the water ratio from waste to pure is about 5 waste to 1 pure, so its taking ages to produce pure water, i will get some 5 micron Fiberdyne prefilters, and hope that improves water production. When i produce pure water i do have the waste tap fully open like you suggested , but still only getting a little of pure, i dont know what else it could be. I did buy the system from the cleaning warehouse less that 15 months ago, but to be honest i would never use them again or buy one of there systems. They are good for supplies but for systems rubbish i had no end of problems, the day i bought it, i got home started to fill up and it leaked everywhere, and bear in mind i live in Southampton and they are in Wolverhampton, i had to drive back to get it sorted, then they float switch didnt work, and the tank over flowed, then the leisure battery didn't charge, and had to manually charged it. They told me to contact spring and were not really interested, Spring were really good sent me two new controllers, then i went on holiday, parked my van at Gatwick, go home from holiday and then van battery was flat, i took the van to a friend of mine, who looked at all the electrics that the cleaning warehouse had done, and he told me that, the whole thing has been wired up wrong, and every thing was draining my van battery. But i guess thats what happens when you think your getting cheep deal. But hey ho you live and learn.
     
  6. jason1965

    jason1965 Member
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    And one more thing i forgot to mention about the cleaning warehouse di resin bottle, when i changed the resin for the firtst time, i unscrewed the lid and the riser completely fell apart. the list goes on and on. :specs
     
  7. spruce

    spruce Grand Master
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    #7 spruce, Jun 5, 2016
    Last edited: Jun 5, 2016
    I think you may find your water production rate will improve if you throttle back your waste a bit - close the waste valve more. 5 to 1 ratio is too much imho. Take a reading of the water produced from the r/o and keep adjusting the waste valve until you find the r/o's 'sweet spot.' It sounds to me that you are running on flush mode.

    Try to set the r/o up so you are producing 1 liter of pure to 1 liter of waste. A good way is to fill to plastic milk containers at the same time. Leave it to run and then take a reading. Open the valve slightly and take another reading after another few minutes.

    The idea is that you want the least water to waste for the lowest ppm of pure produced. Finding that will improve the rate you produce pure water.

    When you remove the riser tube from your di vessel with resin in the vessel, the riser tube will most likely fall apart. Wet resin is like quicksand.
    When replacing the resin follow the video that Alex Gardiner has on his website and you can't go wrong.
    As long as the riser tube fits snuggly into the head then all should be ok. There is an o ring in the head that holds the tube and that should be intact.
     
  8. jason1965

    jason1965 Member
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    Hello Spruce this is what i have done, when the waste tap is fully open i get no pressure reading and there is no noise coming from the ro membrane, only a very very little water going into tank, i guess this is back flushing the membrane, when i close the waste tap there is now a noise like water rushing through membrane, and i get 40 psi pressure, and there is now water going into the tank, it dose not seem to me that i have any play with the amount of water being produced, it either produces a little water, or when i close the tap a little from fully open the water production slows down to hardly anything. the sediment filter was new last week and was the carbon filter and new resin put in yesterday.
     
  9. doug atkinson

    doug atkinson Well-Known Member
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    If that happened return it back as it is not fit for purpose. You will get a reading of 000 probably to begin with but your resin will not perform to it's capacity. You end up throwing away good resin.

    I analysed these vessels that a lot of suppliers sell and they are not fit for purpose. This data I have passed onto other suppliers who I work with closely and they have now recogonised the fault and have stopped supplying them.

    For the past few weeks I have been trialing and brand new vessel which the concept is what I have been looking for. Yield from the resin matches the specification and ease of changing resin is so easy.

    This is a high priced product so price will be a lot higher and hopefully will have it available soon once I have completed my other tests.
     
  10. doug atkinson

    doug atkinson Well-Known Member
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    With regards to your membrane it sounds as if it is blocked probably with calcium deposits or if you had a burst water mains. Try flushing for a good 20 mins.

    If this does not speed up production then a new membrane is required.

    To eliminate the filters connect the ro unit to the mains and if water production increases then there may be a fault with the filters. If not new membrane required.
     
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