Confused! Advice on adding an RO booster pump

[skills999]

I'm after some advice about adding a booster pump to my system. 

I've had conflicting advice from three different pump suppliers! 

One said put a pump before the pre-filters, another said put it after the pre-filters and the other said that you can't run a booster pump off the mains water and I'd need a static tank to draw water from. 

??? 

My system is at home running off mains water pressure of 35psi.

I've got 2 x 20" pre-filters

1 x 40" RO 

1 x resin

Going into a 1000 liter tank. 

I would ideally like to up the pressure to between 100 - 120psi

Any advice would be greatly appreciate 

 

[Part Timer]

Mine is between pre filters and R/O, I'm sure @sprucewill explain why it has to be there rather than before pre filters. Most membranes don't like pressure higher than 100 psi. 

 

[skills999]

Mine is between pre filters and R/O, I'm sure @sprucewill explain why it has to be there rather than before pre filters. Most membranes don't like pressure higher than 100 psi. 

Thanks Part Timer what pump do you use? Any idea what your psi is before and after? 

 

[ks789]

Mine is between pre filters and R/O, I'm sure @sprucewill explain why it has to be there rather than before pre filters. Most membranes don't like pressure higher than 100 psi. 

Ive got mine set up before the pre filters as well as the ro. I thought that was the way they work. seems to be good, all fine and good results. I did use mine up to 100/110 but ive found it gets best results at about 75 psi. Mines a shurflo booster for a 40/21 ro.

 

[skills999]

Ive got mine set up before the pre filters as well as the ro. I thought that was the way they work. seems to be good, all fine and good results. I did use mine up to 100/110 but ive found it gets best results at about 75 psi. Mines a shurflo booster for a 40/21 ro.

Do you know what your pressure is before the pump? 

I'll have a look for a shurflo booster.

Can you regulate the psi on it? 

 

[ks789]

Do you know what your pressure is before the pump? 

I'll have a look for a shurflo booster.

Can you regulate the psi on it? 

I didnt need a booster at my previous address as my psi without a booster pump was 50 odd psi. Where I live now is at the top of the hill and the pressure was much lower ( about 30psi) which just isnt enough. Took ages to fill, loads extra waste water etc. So got the shurflo from daqua, dont know exactly what other systems it will work with, check with the supplier. Yep, easy to regulate, just by how far you open and close the waste water valve on your system. The more closed it is the higher the pressure. I wouldnt have it too high as you may have not enough water go to waste and mess up the membrane in the ro. When you get it experiment but as you know, never close that waste valve right up or you'll wreck the ro membrane.

 

[spruce]

I'm after some advice about adding a booster pump to my system. 

I've had conflicting advice from three different pump suppliers! 

One said put a pump before the pre-filters, another said put it after the pre-filters and the other said that you can't run a booster pump off the mains water and I'd need a static tank to draw water from. 

??? 

My system is at home running off mains water pressure of 35psi.

I've got 2 x 20" pre-filters

1 x 40" RO 

1 x resin

Going into a 1000 liter tank. 

I would ideally like to up the pressure to between 100 - 120psi

Any advice would be greatly appreciate 

The jury is out with exactly where to position a booster pump. There are valid arguments either way. Purefreedom set theirs up after the prefilters, but the counter argument is that you need to ensure the prefilters never become blocked with sediment and 'strave' the booster pump of water.

Personally I would put the booster after the prefilters and before the r/o, but that's my choice.

A booster pump mustn't draw more than 12lpm of water from the mains without a break tank according to the regs. A booster pump on a 4040 system won't draw that amount. The advice was right but its ours is an exception. But when you flush your membrane, the booster pump must be switched off for this process. If it isn't you will drawn more than 12lpm. This can cause all sorts of issues with the mains supply under certain conditions; hence the regulations. We wouldn't be able to use this booster pump to boost the household's supply without a break tank for example.

I have a solenoid valve and float switch on my system to switch water off to the r/o when my IBC tank is full. My choice would be a booster that is fitted with an electronic switchoff. When the water stops flowing the booster pump is automatically switched off.

Xline do the same booster as Gardiners used to do

https://www.xline-systems.co.uk/en/xline-shop-2/filters-filter-systems/filter-systems/240v-booster-pump-detail

plus

https://www.xline-systems.co.uk/en/xline-shop-2/filters-filter-systems/filter-systems/electronic-shutoff-controller-for-booster-pump-detail

and Machine Mart to a more expensive booster with this electronic controller as well.

https://www.machinemart.co.uk/p/cbm240e-1in-multi-stage-230v-booster-pum/

You can buy this Clarke pump cheaper elsewhere. Just do a Google search.

Salamander are a household booster pump but are 'detuned' to met the regs with a powershower operating. They are totally useless as a r/o booster pump.

 

[skills999]

I think my mains flow is about 20 lpm at 35psi and 285 tds. 

My ro only lasts 4 months so I suppose I could put in a booster and see what happens! 

I was thinking that I'd need another 1000l tank as a break tank but if its filling from the mains at the same time I'm pumping out I wouldn't need one so big. 

 

[ks789]

The jury is out with exactly where to position a booster pump. There are valid arguments either way. Purefreedom set theirs up after the prefilters, but the counter argument is that you need to ensure the prefilters never become blocked with sediment and 'strave' the booster pump of water.

Personally I would put the booster after the prefilters and before the r/o, but that's my choice.

A booster pump mustn't draw more than 12lpm of water from the mains without a break tank according to the regs. A booster pump on a 4040 system won't draw that amount. The advice was right but its ours is an exception. But when you flush your membrane, the booster pump must be switched off for this process. If it isn't you will drawn more than 12lpm. This can cause all sorts of issues with the mains supply under certain conditions; hence the regulations. We wouldn't be able to use this booster pump to boost the household's supply without a break tank for example.

I have a solenoid valve and float switch on my system to switch water off to the r/o when my IBC tank is full. My choice would be a booster that is fitted with an electronic switchoff. When the water stops flowing the booster pump is automatically switched off.

Xline do the same booster as Gardiners used to do

https://www.xline-systems.co.uk/en/xline-shop-2/filters-filter-systems/filter-systems/240v-booster-pump-detail

plus

https://www.xline-systems.co.uk/en/xline-shop-2/filters-filter-systems/filter-systems/electronic-shutoff-controller-for-booster-pump-detail

and Machine Mart to a more expensive booster with this electronic controller as well.

https://www.machinemart.co.uk/p/cbm240e-1in-multi-stage-230v-booster-pum/

You can buy this Clarke pump cheaper elsewhere. Just do a Google search.

Salamander are a household booster pump but are 'detuned' to met the regs with a powershower operating. They are totally useless as a r/o booster pump.

 I didnt know this, that the booster shouldnt have more than 12 lpm from the mains. no info comes with it. ive had the tap on full blast while producing. I just checked and a good 20 litres a minute comes out the tap. But only just over 2 litres a minute pure and about 3 litres a minute waste. Im confused now. Where does the rest of the tap water go? and should I turn it down so maybe 10 litres a minute comes out the mains instead of 20 litres? It seems ok, decent results, but I wouldnt want to damage anything. the booster does feel warm after 2 hours use. Shame no info comes with it. 

yeh as for flushing I dont use booster for that. 

many thanks for the advise spruce.

 I didnt know this, that the booster shouldnt have more than 12 lpm from the mains. no info comes with it. ive had the tap on full blast while producing. I just checked and a good 20 litres a minute comes out the tap. But only just over 2 litres a minute pure and about 3 litres a minute waste. Im confused now. Where does the rest of the tap water go? and should I turn it down so maybe 10 litres a minute comes out the mains instead of 20 litres? It seems ok, decent results, but I wouldnt want to damage anything. the booster does feel warm after 2 hours use. Shame no info comes with it. 

yeh as for flushing I dont use booster for that. 

many thanks for the advise spruce.

( oh, also i dont connect the booster till after flush, but I guess this doesnt matter either way)

 

[Cactus27]

 I didnt know this, that the booster shouldnt have more than 12 lpm from the mains. no info comes with it. ive had the tap on full blast while producing. I just checked and a good 20 litres a minute comes out the tap. But only just over 2 litres a minute pure and about 3 litres a minute waste. Im confused now. Where does the rest of the tap water go? and should I turn it down so maybe 10 litres a minute comes out the mains instead of 20 litres? It seems ok, decent results, but I wouldnt want to damage anything. the booster does feel warm after 2 hours use. Shame no info comes with it. 

yeh as for flushing I dont use booster for that. 

many thanks for the advise spruce.

( oh, also i dont connect the booster till after flush, but I guess this doesnt matter either way)

where does the water go when you turn off your spigot? nowhere it stops. the ro can only allow a certain amount though at any given pressure, it restricts/reduces the flow. like only opening the tap part way.

 

[spruce]

 I didnt know this, that the booster shouldnt have more than 12 lpm from the mains. no info comes with it. ive had the tap on full blast while producing. I just checked and a good 20 litres a minute comes out the tap. But only just over 2 litres a minute pure and about 3 litres a minute waste. Im confused now. Where does the rest of the tap water go? and should I turn it down so maybe 10 litres a minute comes out the mains instead of 20 litres? It seems ok, decent results, but I wouldnt want to damage anything. the booster does feel warm after 2 hours use. Shame no info comes with it. 

yeh as for flushing I dont use booster for that. 

many thanks for the advise spruce.

( oh, also i dont connect the booster till after flush, but I guess this doesnt matter either way)

The higher the waste to pure ratio the more water is taken from the mains. Set up correctly (waste to pure ratio) the most your 4040 r/o should draw is around 7lpm. So if your waste is 3lpm and pure output 2lpm, your r/o is drawing 5lpm from the supply, well within the 12lpm max of the regulations.

Our tap supplies 13lpm of water at 50psi. Even at that an Axeon HF5 membrane produces 2lpm with a fraction over 2lpm of waste - lets say 4.5lpm in total, well within the tap's 13lpm water delivery.

The problem is when supply pipes become calcified internally and flow restricted. There is a windie on here who lives about 10 miles from us. He tell us his water pressure is very low and he has a trickle of water from his taps. He can't fit a 4040 with booster pump as his flow isn't enough. I keep thinking that he could have a restrictor on his supply placed by the water board for non payment of water rates. By law they can't turn the water supply off totally to any house due the health concerns.

He can manage with a 450gpd and a small booster pump.

 

[ks789]

The higher the waste to pure ratio the more water is taken from the mains. Set up correctly (waste to pure ratio) the most your 4040 r/o should draw is around 7lpm. So if your waste is 3lpm and pure output 2lpm, your r/o is drawing 5lpm from the supply, well with the 12lpm max of the regulations.

Our tap supplies 13lpm of water at 50psi. Even at that an Axeon HF5 membrane produces 2lpm with a fraction over 2lpm of waste - lets say 4.5lpm in total, well within the tap's 13lpm water delivery.

The problem is when supply pipes become calcified internally and flow restricted. There is a windie on here who lives about 10 miles from us. He tell us his water pressure is very low and he has a trickle of water from his taps. He can't fit a 4040 with booster pump as his flow isn't enough. I keep thinking that he could have a restrictor on his supply placed by the water board for non payment of water rates. By law they can't turn the water supply off totally to any house due the health concerns.

He can manage with a 450gpd and a small booster pump.

yes one of our mates had their water reduced to a trickle because of non bill payment. They were content with it for ages as they were a bit hippy-ish and didnt tend to bath. But I dont think it would've run even the smallest ro, literally ages to fill a kettle.

So spruce, is it that even though when not connected to anything, 20 litres a minute can flow out the mains, but when connected to a ro, even with the mains tap open fully, the ro will stop/not allow that amount through? Yes I can sort of see it. It hits a block, in the form of the ro, and this restricts flow. Sorry to sound daft, but sometimes these things are tricky to get your head round.

 

[spruce]

yes one of our mates had their water reduced to a trickle because of non bill payment. They were content with it for ages as they were a bit hippy-ish and didnt tend to bath. But I dont think it would've run even the smallest ro, literally ages to fill a kettle.

So spruce, is it that even though when not connected to anything, 20 litres a minute can flow out the mains, but when connected to a ro, even with the mains tap open fully, the ro will stop/not allow that amount through? Yes I can sort of see it. It hits a block, in the form of the ro, and this restricts flow. Sorry to sound daft, but sometimes these things are tricky to get your head round.

Yes, that's not a problem. Its when you add a device (a booster pump in this situation) where the booster pump starts to suck water through the mains supply.  It can suck up to 12lpm and no more.

This is why suppliers of booster pumps need to be very careful when advising customers. By telling you that you need to install a break tank they are doing their job. Its safe advise that covers all bases.

Let's take your mates example. If he tried to draw more water through the pipe using a booster, then the vacuum it creates could cause the pipe to collapse between the restriction and the booster. His is a different situation anyway.

 

[skills999]

install a break tank

What size break tank would be needed? 

 

[spruce]

What size break tank would be needed? 

Don't worry about it as our requirements for water purification will not fit into the break tank sizing recommendations.

https://www.dutypoint.com/systems/60-break-tank-sizing

(Dutypoint recommend that a minimum of 15 minutes' storage, according to the peak flow rate of the booster set, should be provided in a booster set break tank within a commercial installation.)

Using a break tank is something that the heavy duty power washer fellows might have to improvise with. We watched a couple of guys using a wheelbin as a break tank for their pressure washer. The guys stopped to let the wheelbin refill with water whilst the hose was continously filling it. But we can't do that as our r/o has to work continously. If your r/o is drawing 5lpm but your tap is only supplying 4lpm then you have to work out how you compensate for the 1lpm shortfall.

IMO if I'm taking 500 liters from my storage tank and my r/o is producing 2 lpm of pure, then it will take my r/o just over 4 hours to replace that water. Drawing 1lpm from the break tank will mean I need a tank of around 250 liters as a backup. Now I would need to size my tank so I have extra capacity if I draw more than 500 liters. I also need to consider that in that 4 hours water will need to be used for other things such as toilet flushing. In an extreme I could draw 600 liters from my storage tank for window cleaning. With all this I would really play safe and have a second hand 1000 liter IBC tank as a break tank as its a cheap way of water storage. I would imagine I could get away with a 600 liter break tank in most cases. A second hand 1000 liter IBC tank will be easier to find than a 600 liter tank will be.

If I'm also supplying another cleaner then his daily useage would have to be factured into the equation as well and could mean another IBC tank linked into the first one.