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diesel hot water

ECLM
WCF

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View attachment 5887

Relatively simple really.

Webasto Thermo Top 5kw or Webasto 90 9kw diesel boiler complete with all controls, fuel pump and water pump.

Hot water out from boiler to water to water plate heat exchanger then out to header tank and from header tank back to boiler. This will be the internal hot water circuit.

The water to water plate heat exchanger has 2 water circuits the are separated by plates and these transfer heat from the hot water generated from the boiler to the cold water being pumped through it to your wfp brush. To ensure the water to your wfp brush remains at a controller temperature set by the operator a thermostatic mixing valve is included in the wfp circuit.

Here's the complete TMV package.

Webasto Eberspacher TMV Thermostatically Controlled HOT Water Heat Exchanger | eBay

Oh, by the way, the hot water needs to travel through the heat exchanger in the opposite direction to the water traveling through it on its way to the brush head.

 
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No wouldn't of fancied myself mate, Xline did it, although they had to use a authorised mechanic to break into the fuel tank and do that side of it and it then gets signed off to cover myself as van still under warranty. I think it was around the 3k mark all in, I will dig out the receipt and let you know exactly if you like.

 
Do you know how to plumb all that Spruce? I am assuming (perhaps wrongly) the diesel comes from the vehicle fuel tank?
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Either using the van fuel tank or a dedicated separate fuel tank.

Some vans would be easier to 'tap' into the vehicles tank than others. On my diesel air heater I found the easiest way was to tap into the vans diesel return pipe to the tank. The down side is that the return pipe doesn't reach down to the bottom of the tank. So when using it in winter I need to ensure the diesel tank in the van never drops below 1/4. If it does, then I can't use the heater.

My van has access to the fuel tank via an inspection cover inside the van. This would allow me to remove and replace the fuel pump without dropping the tank. If I wanted to tap into the tank on my son's Peugeot Partner van then I would have to drop the fuel tank to fit a 'stand pipe' to supply the heater.

The most popular fuel tank is an outboard motor fuel tank from the boating world. Most of them have fuel gauges built in and are portable. They can be removed from their secure fixture and filled up with diesel outside the van on the forecourt which will minimize any fuel spillage inside the back of the van. I've also seen those steel jerry cans used. You can buy them including a securing frame from MachineMart. The only problem with them is that they don't have a gauge or sight glass so you can see immediately how much fuel you have left in the tank.

Tapping into the fuel tank is probably the best option as you don't want the diesel heater sucking air. Once they do then they need to be bled and hopefully they will restart. If not then removing the power fuse for 30 secs could successfully reset the electronics. If that doesn't work, then it will have to be reset by a repair agent/specialist who will use a computer program to clear the fault codes. That will cost similar to a dealership putting you car onto the computer to clear fault codes.

My Citroen Relay is in fact a Fiat Ducato with a Citroen Hdi engine. The Ducato is the most popular chassis used as motor homes. Diesel heaters are popular with motor home owners. So there are technicians who remove the fuel pump and fuel gauge sender unit assembly from the tank and drill a hole in the top of it to fit a standpipe. But again this takes some 'balls' to do as a small mistake can damage the unit and cost a fortune to replace the complete assembly. Space is extremely tight and a Webasto standpipe has to be 'engineered' to fit.

 
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Thanks but no, as I said earlier, cant seem to find diesel with change from £2.5K. I will stick to gas for now! /emoticons/smile.png)
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The cheaper units will probably use 5kw heaters and be a single operator heater. IMHO they don't provide enough heat to supply the brush on a continuous flow.

A 9kw Webasto is best even for a single operator as they produce more heat using a similar amount of fuel and have better programming and more suitable to our use as window cleaners. But they cost a lot more.

 
i still beleive that its possible to make one for far less than 2.5k,as spruce has said the right heater is the key to it all,i have a couple of eberspachers but could not get the electronic side of it all to work first time every time,my total costs to date are a tad under £500 but the cabinet is being made for me so thats extra of course and then the fuel tank etc i'm sure i can do it for under a grand though.

the x-line heater seems to have done away with the pcb? that would be a better way to go for me

 
i still beleive that its possible to make one for far less than 2.5k,as spruce has said the right heater is the key to it all,i have a couple of eberspachers but could not get the electronic side of it all to work first time every time,my total costs to date are a tad under £500 but the cabinet is being made for me so thats extra of course and then the fuel tank etc i'm sure i can do it for under a grand though.the x-line heater seems to have done away with the pcb? that would be a better way to go for me
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No they haven't @kevinc250. Its at the end of the heater. It is housed in the black housing on @Trev81 photo. Most Thermo 90's have a universal PCB so can be used in most applications. The Thermo Top is different.

A 5kw diesel heater doesn't produce enough heat to supply a single operator on a continuous flow. I found that a 5kw unit would only raise the temperature from 9 degrees to 35 degrees at a flow of 1.5 litres of water a minute. The formula to raise the water by that temperature says it would need 2.6kw to do that. So what happened to the other 2.4kws the heater was allegedly supposed to produce? Most was wasted through the exhaust as that got rather hot. (Increase the flow to 2 LPM and the temperature of the water at the brush head dropped to 28 degrees.) As some cleaners would be happy to have warm supple hoses only, they would be happy with that. I would. But if you want to build them to sell then there will be others that would expect it to produce steaming hot water. It won't do that.

Webasto bought out Eberspacher a few years ago.

I know very little about Ebers units, but the Thermo Top C is a 5kw furnace that is used as a supplementary heater in vehicles with modern diesel engines. In most cases they are manufacturer specific. So a Thermo Top taken from a BMW will only work in a BMW. All the mechanical components are the same but the electronics aren't.

The only ones that are guaranteed to work are Universal units that are supplied to the boating industry. There is a Youtube video where a couple of guys where experimenting with a Webasto Heater from a Citroen C8 and they got it to run without plugging it into the Citroen ECU. The same situation may apply to heaters taken from Rover 75's.

The Thermo Top has a few issues with its PCB board which are simple enough to repair if you have an electronics aptitude. A replacement board was around £199 last time I looked.

If you are going to assemble heaters, then you need to know exactly how they are controlled electronically and how they work. Whilst they look very simple, their electronic controllers are in fact works of programming art. Do you know the whole heating cycle that each boiler (5kw and 9kw) goes thorough and why the 9kw is a better unit to use although it produces more heat initially?

I set up a test bench a few years ago to see how a 5kw performed. After much experimenting and duplicating it a window cleaning environment, I came to the conclusion that I would be wasting my time with a 5kw furnace.

I don't mean to rain on your parade, but sometimes its pointless trying to reinvent the proverbial wheel.

There is another cleaner (you maybe to same person) who says he can build a unit cheaper than the suppliers can offer it for on another forum. Several of us have tried to 'bump' or resurrect the thread but the original poster has gone quiet.

 
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No they haven't @kevinc250. Its at the end of the heater. It is housed in the black housing on @Trev81 photo. Most Thermo 90's have a universal PCB so can be used in most applications. The Thermo Top is different.
A 5kw diesel heater doesn't produce enough heat to supply a single operator on a continuous flow. I found that a 5kw unit would only raise the temperature from 9 degrees to 35 degrees at a flow of 1.5 litres of water a minute. The formula to raise the water by that temperature says it would need 2.6kw to do that. So what happened to the other 2.4kws the heater was allegedly supposed to produce? Most was wasted through the exhaust as that got rather hot. (Increase the flow to 2 LPM and the temperature of the water at the brush head dropped to 28 degrees.) As some cleaners would be happy to have warm supple hoses only, they would be happy with that. I would. But if you want to build them to sell then there will be others that would expect it to produce steaming hot water. It won't do that.

Webasto bought out Eberspacher a few years ago.

I know very little about Ebers units, but the Thermo Top C is a 5kw furnace that is used as a supplementary heater in vehicles with modern diesel engines. In most cases they are manufacturer specific. So a Thermo Top taken from a BMW will only work in a BMW. All the mechanical components are the same but the electronics aren't.

The only ones that are guaranteed to work are Universal units that are supplied to the boating industry. There is a Youtube video where a couple of guys where experimenting with a Webasto Heater from a Citroen C8 and they got it to run without plugging it into the Citroen ECU. The same situation may apply to heaters taken from Rover 75's.

The Thermo Top has a few issues with its PCB board which are simple enough to repair if you have an electronics aptitude. A replacement board was around £199 last time I looked.

If you are going to assemble heaters, then you need to know exactly how they are controlled electronically and how they work. Whilst they look very simple, their electronic controllers are in fact works of programming art. Do you know the whole heating cycle that each boiler (5kw and 9kw) goes thorough and why the 9kw is a better unit to use although it produces more heat initially?

I set up a test bench a few years ago to see how a 5kw performed. After much experimenting and duplicating it a window cleaning environment, I came to the conclusion that I would be wasting my time with a 5kw furnace.

I don't mean to rain on your parade, but sometimes its pointless trying to reinvent the proverbial wheel.

There is another cleaner (you maybe to same person) who says he can build a unit cheaper than the suppliers can offer it for on another forum. Several of us have tried to 'bump' or resurrect the thread but the original poster has gone quiet.
Click to expand...
 
its not me spruce trying to make and sell them,i have seen that thread,i was just lucky to have been offered a 9kw ionics one,albeit with no cover/case (hence all these questions)just a pile of bits but a complete pile of bits,the case is being built for me as we speak-well i hope so anyway it was where to place things and users ideas and woes etc i am asking about mate

 
don't forget most of these heater don't like red diesel if running a separate tanks , our truck mount runs on red fine and the night heater is tapped into vans fuel tank as it doesn't like red diesel due the the jets

 
its not me spruce trying to make and sell them,i have seen that thread,i was just lucky to have been offered a 9kw ionics one,albeit with no cover/case (hence all these questions)just a pile of bits but a complete pile of bits,the case is being built for me as we speak-well i hope so anyway it was where to place things and users ideas and woes etc i am asking about mate
Click to expand...
The Ionics one is a little different as they appear to have a different setup. Someone on one of the forums recently has suggested that he is unable to control the water temperature to the brush head.

It would also appear to me that they use a pressure relief valve to divert hot water back to the tank when you switch the water off to your brush head. So I would see the pump running all the time.

View attachment 5911

They also seem to use additional controls on their control panel

View attachment 5910

 
When I had ionic over to my place for a demo of there zero system their heater was a fixed temp, one of a few things I did not like, and for that money I expected to be able to do anything I needed such as upping the temp for dirty salvage jobs etc. There is prob a work around but something I thought that should be standard on there system, like you say loads of controls on there, why not have a simple analogue temp control for each pump.

 
The Ionics one is a little different as they appear to have a different setup. Someone on one of the forums recently has suggested that he is unable to control the water temperature to the brush head.It would also appear to me that they use a pressure relief valve to divert hot water back to the tank when you switch the water off to your brush head. So I would see the pump running all the time.

View attachment 8540View attachment 8542

They also seem to use additional controls on their control panel
Click to expand...
that control panel does look a bit sexy though spruce?,i am getting more of an insight now all three follow the same theme only different ideas dictate how they are wired/plumbed up,to add another one to all this grippa tank seem to prefer to install their pumps and filters near the webasto so they will gain residual heat in the colder months-heads nearly fried already

 
When I had ionic over to my place for a demo of there zero system their heater was a fixed temp, one of a few things I did not like, and for that money I expected to be able to do anything I needed such as upping the temp for dirty salvage jobs etc. There is prob a work around but something I thought that should be standard on there system, like you say loads of controls on there, why not have a simple analogue temp control for each pump.
Click to expand...
Like yours @Trev81. I don't understand why they haven't incorporated something like that.

I see that they have a hot water bleed back to the tank which will reduce the stop and restart issues which impact on battery drain, but adding an adjustable thermostatic regulator makes lots of sense.

I notice they have a winter/summer switch. I don't know which lead they use to activate that. There doesn't seem to be that facility on the standard 90's so it must be a feature that is specifically incorporated in the unit used in the boating world which is the model they have chosen to fit. A summer setting would give a reduced heat output so would allow a measure of temperature control.

 
that control panel does look a bit sexy though spruce?,i am getting more of an insight now all three follow the same theme only different ideas dictate how they are wired/plumbed up,to add another one to all this grippa tank seem to prefer to install their pumps and filters near the webasto so they will gain residual heat in the colder months-heads nearly fried already
Click to expand...

You are right @kevinc250. That control panel really looks the business. But its a single operator heater.

The package takes up a lot of space though. @Trev81 's unit is a twin operator unit and probably uses a 1/3 of the foot print - a consideration where floor space in the van is at a premium.

The test bench I setup was originally designed to fit on a frame work on the side of the van above a wheel arch. This was to save floor space. The only issue was routing the exhaust and screening it to prevent anyone accidentally touching it. I didn't want to lag it as I would still prefer the heat to 'escape' into the van rather than let it all out through the exhaust pipe. But it still hasn't happened yet.

 
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