Holding my hands up!

[PC]

Been using 8mm hose for a very long time. I’ve seen all the threads about switching to 6mm but I was convinced that it wouldn’t make that much difference weight wise and dropping down in size would mess with the flow so I stuck to my stubborn guns!
A few days ago I bought a new reel so thought I’d give 6mm a go. I can’t believe what a difference it’s made. Dragging the hose around is soooo much easier. Reeling in is much much easier and it has made no difference to the flow whatsoever. My pump is on the same setting and it’s just the same as the 8mm.
So as the title says ‘I’m holding my hands up’ and admitting that I was very wrong!
Just goes to show we are always learning.

 

[Deleted member 7446]

Been using 8mm hose for a very long time. I’ve seen all the threads about switching to 6mm but I was convinced that it wouldn’t make that much difference weight wise and dropping down in size would mess with the flow so I stuck to my stubborn guns!
A few days ago I bought a new reel so thought I’d give 6mm a go. I can’t believe what a difference it’s made. Dragging the hose around is soooo much easier. Reeling in is much much easier and it has made no difference to the flow whatsoever. My pump is on the same setting and it’s just the same as the 8mm.
So as the title says ‘I’m holding my hands up’ and admitting that I was very wrong!
Just goes to show we are always learning.

I've only ever used the streamline 6mm hi vis and can't fault it's ability to do the job in hand. I'm also stubborn and didn't want to ever try 8mm

It's a nightmare when you start pressure washing and have to drag around 40m of 2 wire ⅜ high pressure hose... now that's a workout

 

[PC]

Just hot water and an electric reel now
Having managed 20 winters with the poles and 20 winters on the ladders going to really need some convincing to go hot water!
Maybe seriously consider an electric reel at some point . Stranger things have happened

 

[ched999uk]

Just hot water and an electric reel now
Having managed 20 winters with the poles and 20 winters on the ladders going to really need some convincing to go hot water!
Maybe seriously consider an electric reel at some point . Stranger things have happened

Get an electric reel and through floor rollers. So much easier than manually reeling in. After 40 years you deserve to make your work as easy as possible.

 

[Part Timer]

Been using 8mm hose for a very long time. I’ve seen all the threads about switching to 6mm but I was convinced that it wouldn’t make that much difference weight wise and dropping down in size would mess with the flow so I stuck to my stubborn guns!
A few days ago I bought a new reel so thought I’d give 6mm a go. I can’t believe what a difference it’s made. Dragging the hose around is soooo much easier. Reeling in is much much easier and it has made no difference to the flow whatsoever. My pump is on the same setting and it’s just the same as the 8mm.
So as the title says ‘I’m holding my hands up’ and admitting that I was very wrong!
Just goes to show we are always learning.

We had to drop the flow, slightly, and recalibrate when we changed one van from 8 to 6mm. It was like jet washing before we did it.
It is far easier reeling in, and pulling out, 6mm using an electric reel so will be alot easier manually.

 

[spruce]

Another poster on this forum couldn't understand why a difference in 2mm hose size (8mm minibore to 6mm microbore) should make a difference in flow. Doug Atkinson from Daqua posted this in reply

It does -------, makes at least 30% reduction in flow


This web page (that no longer exists), made some interesting points regarding a comparison in flow rates of water through a straight steel pipe between 8mm and 6mm ID pipes.

http://www.flourmilling.co.uk/water.html

I realize it's steel pipe, but the flow rate difference between 6mm and 8mm bore steel pipe is considerable. At 4 bar, the flow through 6mm pipe is 0.022 litres per second. The 8mm pipe is 0.056 litres per sec at the same pressure. A 6mm tube will only allow fractionally less than 1/2 the volume of water at 4 bar. Our hose coiled up around a hose reel will probably reduce those figures a bit more.

Hot water will have a higher (or is it lower) viscosity (less dense) so will flow better through a smaller diamt hose. So most hot water users happily use microbore hose.

Water flowing through a hose can either be Laminar flow or Turbulent flow. Once fluid in a tube reaches a certain speed, it becomes turbulent. Once it becomes turbulent, it requires 4 times the amount of pressure to double the flow rate. Fluid through hose coiled on hose reels won't be laminar in flow but turbulent. If you look at a running stream, the water is the centre is smooth running or laminar. But if you look at the water at the edge, it swirls around, turning back on itself. They are called Eddies. That's turbulence flow.

To calculate the area of a circle, the formula is

A = π r2

A 6mm id hose is fractionally more than half the size of an 8mm hose.

I have 2 hose reels on the van. One is microbore and the other is minibore. The flow through the minibore on the same controller setting with the same jets in the brush head was definitely better than using microbore. The pump also drew more amps pushing water through the microbore hose. (I wish I could find those figures I posted.) But, as others have said, the microbore is much easier to manage than minibore is.

There was a good reason for us sticking with minibore hose for over 14 years. Initially, Shurflo wouldn't guarantee pumps used on hose smaller than 1/2". So my reasoning was that as 1/2" hose was so difficult to manage, and I was going to have to take the warranty risk myself, I saw minibore as less of a risk of damaging the pump than using microbore. Of course, at the end of the day, Shurflo up rated their pumps from 65 to 100psi, and the risk of using microbore disappeared.

 

[P4dstar]

Another poster on this forum couldn't understand why a difference in 2mm hose size (8mm minibore to 6mm microbore) should make a difference in flow. Doug Atkinson from Daqua posted this in reply

It does -------, makes at least 30% reduction in flow


This web page (that no longer exists), made some interesting points regarding a comparison in flow rates of water through a straight steel pipe between 8mm and 6mm ID pipes.

http://www.flourmilling.co.uk/water.html

I realize it's steel pipe, but the flow rate difference between 6mm and 8mm bore steel pipe is considerable. At 4 bar, the flow through 6mm pipe is 0.022 litres per second. The 8mm pipe is 0.056 litres per sec at the same pressure. A 6mm tube will only allow fractionally less than 1/2 the volume of water at 4 bar. Our hose coiled up around a hose reel will probably reduce those figures a bit more.

Hot water will have a higher (or is it lower) viscosity (less dense) so will flow better through a smaller diamt hose. So most hot water users happily use microbore hose.

Water flowing through a hose can either be Laminar flow or Turbulent flow. Once fluid in a tube reaches a certain speed, it becomes turbulent. Once it becomes turbulent, it requires 4 times the amount of pressure to double the flow rate. Fluid through hose coiled on hose reels won't be laminar in flow but turbulent. If you look at a running stream, the water is the centre is smooth running or laminar. But if you look at the water at the edge, it swirls around, turning back on itself. They are called Eddies. That's turbulence flow.

To calculate the area of a circle, the formula is

A = π r2

A 6mm id hose is fractionally more than half the size of an 8mm hose.

I have 2 hose reels on the van. One is microbore and the other is minibore. The flow through the minibore on the same controller setting with the same jets in the brush head was definitely better than using microbore. The pump also drew more amps pushing water through the microbore hose. (I wish I could find those figures I posted.) But, as others have said, the microbore is much easier to manage than minibore is.

There was a good reason for us sticking with minibore hose for over 14 years. Initially, Shurflo wouldn't guarantee pumps used on hose smaller than 1/2". So my reasoning was that as 1/2" hose was so difficult to manage, and I was going to have to take the warranty risk myself, I saw minibore as less of a risk of damaging the pump than using microbore. Of course, at the end of the day, Shurflo up rated their pumps from 65 to 100psi, and the risk of using microbore disappeared.

The bit I don’t understand… is pretty much all of the above no but seriously, the bit I don’t understand is, when the water reaches the brush it bottlenecks out of 2x 2mm pencil jets anyway. If I was setting up a science experiment my initial thesis would be that I’d see the same flow rate etc with a quicker build up of pressure at the 6mm hose. I say this because we don’t push the flow to the maximum the hose can handle, just to a set level regardless of hose size if that makes sense.

 

[spruce]

The bit I don’t understand… is pretty much all of the above no but seriously, the bit I don’t understand is, when the water reaches the brush it bottlenecks out of 2x 2mm pencil jets anyway. If I was setting up a science experiment my initial thesis would be that I’d see the same flow rate etc with a quicker build up of pressure at the 6mm hose. I say this because we don’t push the flow to the maximum the hose can handle, just to a set level regardless of hose size if that makes sense.

We also don't push the maximum flow rate the hose will handle.
When setting up my controller, I'm looking for the optimum flow rate for rinsing without using too much water during the scrubbing phase of cleaning the window. Thinking about turbulence and laminar flow of the hose size I'm using is not even a consideration.
But if I wanted a much higher flow rate, then I would notice the difference between minibore and microbore hose.

My Varistream controller is set at 3 or 4. I prefer 4 as it gives a better rinse rate, but I use more water a day than if I set the flow down to 3. At a flow rate of 4, I do notice a difference between the 2 hoses, mainly in winter when the water is cold and we aren't using the boiler. When the water is warmer, I don't notice any difference. (3 and 4 roughly equate to 30 and 40 on Spring controllers.)

When using a lower flow than 3, there is a small difference with regard to amp draw of the pump. When working at 4, my pump draws more current as it's having to with harder to produce the same flow rate using the smaller id hose.

Most of this is totally irrelevant to us as we go about our daily business, but I do like to look at the physics behind the operation.

 

[wezza13]

Out of interest, what 6mm hose are you guys using?

I used 6mm for years but was annoyed at how easy it was to pierce with rosebushes, etc. Ended up with 3 connectors on 100m of 6mm hosepipe and it was annoying the amount the connectors would snag on corners, walls, etc.

I changed to 8mm and it made a world of difference with regards to weight (a lot heavier), no punctures from thorns, etc. I used to use the Gardiner all season 6mm hose. I would like to go back to 6mm hose and just wondering if there's a better alternative to the all season hose i.e. more resistant to thorn piercing?

I did use the hot water pvc 6mm hose for a while but it was annoying the way it wanted to curl back up all the time.

I do use this on a Pure Freedom electric reel and not worried about the weight but the 6mm would definitely be easier to work with overall.

 

[spruce]

The last lot of microbore came from Gardeners, and it's been fine. Never had to repair a leak ever. I believe Daqua is selling the same as Alex did.
We had a roll of minibore from somewhere I can't remember. The moment we used hot water, it became like a rubber band. Even using cold water, it swelled and wasn't easy to work with. Gardeners supplied the current minibore hose as well, and that's been fine with warm water. Shows how long we have had it.
The hot water leaves the heater at 55 degrees C on my side and 50 degrees C on my son's side.

 

[CHWS]

I find the opposite , the latest I have from wcw has dropped my flow significantly

 

[Iron Giant]

I find the opposite , the latest I have from wcw has dropped my flow significantly

A few months ago waterworks knew they had an issue with the hose as they got complaints, I wonder if WCW are having the same issue with this.

I'm using waterworks hose from last July and have a brand new coil from 4 years sat on a shelf in my garage.

 

[J'D]

Been using 8mm hose for a very long time. I’ve seen all the threads about switching to 6mm but I was convinced that it wouldn’t make that much difference weight wise and dropping down in size would mess with the flow so I stuck to my stubborn guns!
A few days ago I bought a new reel so thought I’d give 6mm a go. I can’t believe what a difference it’s made. Dragging the hose around is soooo much easier. Reeling in is much much easier and it has made no difference to the flow whatsoever. My pump is on the same setting and it’s just the same as the 8mm.
So as the title says ‘I’m holding my hands up’ and admitting that I was very wrong!
Just goes to show we are always learning.

Aye it's a no brainer PC....

 

[spruce]

A few months ago waterworks knew they had an issue with the hose as they got complaints, I wonder if WCW are having the same issue with this.

I'm using waterworks hose from last July and have a brand new coil from 4 years sat on a shelf in my garage.

WCW had an issue with a batch of hose they were selling quite a few years ago now. It just split. Even although they were told about the issue, they continued to sell it.

I seem to remember PureFreedom had the same issue with the hose they were selling. (They were separate companies back then.) They wanted the window cleaner to send the hose back to them at his expense, and they would return it back to the supplier. If the supplier believed it to be faulty, they would then reimburse the cost to the windie when pf received the credit note.
The windie asked what hose he would use in the meantime. "Just order another roll of hose from us."

I think Doug also said that there was a faulty batch of hose on the market.

I seem to remember the conclusion was that this windie realised that he was on the road to nowhere and ordered a roll of hose from another supplier, advising that he would never deal with pf again. Sadly, this is just a threat that would be like water off a ducks back.

As I've said before, I wouldn't buy consumables from pf. I would however purchase some stuff that their engineering side manufacturers, provided it is made to the same standard as in previous years.

Now I'm thinking of their Wydale upright tank and frame. The design has changed from previous years, so before I ordered one, I would want them to confirm that the frame design I'm buying is the design that they got crash tested certification on.

 

[Iron Giant]

WCW had an issue with a batch of hose they were selling quite a few years ago now. It just split. Even although they were told about the issue, they continued to sell it.

I seem to remember PureFreedom had the same issue with the hose they were selling. (They were separate companies back then.) They wanted the window cleaner to send the hose back to them at his expense, and they would return it back to the supplier. If the supplier believed it to be faulty, they would then reimburse the cost to the windie when pf received the credit note.
The windie asked what hose he would use in the meantime. "Just order another roll of hose from us."

I think Doug also said that there was a faulty batch of hose on the market.

I seem to remember the conclusion was that this windie realised that he was on the road to nowhere and ordered a roll of hose from another supplier, advising that he would never deal with pf again. Sadly, this is just a threat that would be like water off a ducks back.

As I've said before, I wouldn't buy consumables from pf. I would however purchase some stuff that their engineering side manufacturers, provided it is made to the same standard as in previous years.

Now I'm thinking of their Wydale upright tank and frame. The design has changed from previous years, so before I ordered one, I would want them to confirm that the frame design I'm buying is the design that they got crash tested certification on.

I hope that hose I've had sat on my shelf in the garage since the summer of 2020 isn't part of a dodgy batch someone on here raved about circuit hydraulics hose and I was led to believe they were a main supplier for some of the big wfp suppliers their hose didn't last 12 months this was a few years ago now,

I think once the seed of doubt is sewn it's hard to shake that off when wanting to commit to a purchase, PF with their black resin for example, then I decided to buy a new small R/O from them when Doug was on holiday and closed for business it came in a plain box with "Made In China" stamped on the side and had never been opened one of the fittings was broken and it couldn't be used, this was before they were bought it by wcw

 

[spruce]

I think that we have to be very cautious these days when buying product. This is why I only deal with Gardeners and Daqua.

There was the story going around regarding Shurflo pumps. A supplier was selling a Chinese clone as the genuine article. The serial number of the pump wasn't linked to Shurflo USA.

The Chinese are also selling the previous model Webasto ST90 much cheaper than Webasto are selling the current model. So if I was buying a diesel hot water heater, then I would need to confirm that I'm not paying Webasto prices for a Chinese supplied item. (I'm aware that there is every possibility that Webasto heaters are not made in Germany any more. I expect they are made in China anyway, so this is where the problem for me starts.)

 

[Pjj]

I hope that hose I've had sat on my shelf in the garage since the summer of 2020 isn't part of a dodgy batch someone on here raved about circuit hydraulics hose and I was led to believe they were a main supplier for some of the big wfp suppliers their hose didn't last 12 months this was a few years ago now,

I think once the seed of doubt is sewn it's hard to shake that off when wanting to commit to a purchase, PF with their black resin for example, then I decided to buy a new small R/O from them when Doug was on holiday and closed for business it came in a plain box with "Made In China" stamped on the side and had never been opened one of the fittings was broken and it couldn't be used, this was before they were bought it by wcw

Circuit hydraulics hose is useless it’s a very cheap grade pvc and unless using hot water is like winding in wire especially in the winter daqua hose lasts far longer and is a much better quality hose .

 

[kalimon]

I've never used a 6mm hose than can stand to be driven over repeatedly.
Unless you are happy to keep moving your van to avoid going across roads, use good quality 8mm minibore.
Gardiners 8m hose ( or the Daqua equivalent,) can take some serious abuse.

 

[Pjj]

I've never used a 6mm hose than can stand to be driven over repeatedly.
Unless you are happy to keep moving your van to avoid going across roads, use good quality 8mm minibore.
Gardiners 8m hose ( or the Daqua equivalent,) can take some serious abuse.

Never had a problem with 6 mm hose being run over we use Gardiner hose or now they don’t sell it use daqua as it’s the same hose .

 

[dazmond]

I've never used a 6mm hose than can stand to be driven over repeatedly.
Unless you are happy to keep moving your van to avoid going across roads, use good quality 8mm minibore.
Gardiners 8m hose ( or the Daqua equivalent,) can take some serious abuse.

Bin lorries and all sorts of vehicles drive over my 6mm hose every single day. My current hose is over 3 years old. No problems whatsoever.

Personally I think any window cleaners who use 8mm are just making their work a lot harder than it needs to be...

 

[Iron Giant]

I've never used a 6mm hose than can stand to be driven over repeatedly.
Unless you are happy to keep moving your van to avoid going across roads, use good quality 8mm minibore.
Gardiners 8m hose ( or the Daqua equivalent,) can take some serious abuse.

I don't understand this at all running the hose across estate roads where people are doing under 15mph there shouldn't be an issue,

unless you are running your hose across main roads, this isn't something I'd take a risk with at all as it only takes one idiot to go too fast and for the hose to jump and wrap around a car wheel