Static Home Use Water Fed Pole System

[Budbecks]

Hi all.

I thought id better ask the professional as i am unsure.

I am looking into a water fed pole system to use purely for use on my own house. I have large windows and glass banisters on the decking in total about 50m'2 of outside glass.

I live in north devon and facing the sea (100 yards from) and the windows are nearly always dirty mainly from salt sea spray. I have cleaned them before by hand but a little wind from the sea and there filthy again. There not all easy to do by hand either. some are high and on a bank so access isn't great

So i was looking into a water fed pole system to clean them. I was hoping to build a little lean to outside somewhere to house it all and running service to it is no problem as im a builder by trade.

I have read a few guides and as far as im aware we have soft water where we live but people say just using DI resin is not really that good so would preferably go for RO + DI resin.

So i have got that far However i have no idea how much water im going to be using and what would be the correct size system i'd need.

If all goes well i would probably clean them every 2/4 weeks, 50m2 outside glass. Max height is only about 8-10 feet.

Does pure water work well on salty spray conditions ?

Could anyone guide me to the right size setups i'd need.

Thanks very much in advance

 

[spruce]

Hardly worth investing in an r/o system for just your own windows.

First is to buy a tds meter and test your tap water.

I would go di only and connect it to your garden tap with a 1/2" garden hose. Use a clx22 from Gardiners with a flocked brush. You will need a hose tap at the end of the hose and a reducer to accommodate the pole hose. Obviously you will need to replace the spent resin, so you will need a tds meter to monitor the quality of your water from the di.

Your house shouldn't use any more than 75 liters of water so a decent size di vessel should last a while.

The equipment you need isn't cheap to buy and maintain so will take a long time, if ever to justify the cost. Aren't there any decent window cleaners down your way?

Di filtered water works just as well as r/o and di water at cleaning windows with salt sea residue on them. Occasionally we have to use a cleaner first as the windows get a greasy substance on them. We live on the bay of the Tees river estuary and I'm sure that we get a lot of exhaust pollution from the ships anchored in the bay awaiting a dock to load/unload.

Here's an example of what I mean in action.

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[Nigel rees]

Hi spruce

Is it possible to store the filtered tap water/now pure water into containers for later use,I'm new to window cleaning and only got a small trad round at mo.

Thanks.

Sent using the Window Cleaning Forums app

 

[Budbecks]

Hardly worth investing in an r/o system for just your own windows.
First is to buy a tds meter and test your tap water.

I would go di only and connect it to your garden tap with a 1/2" garden hose. Use a clx22 from Gardiners with a flocked brush. You will need a hose tap at the end of the hose and a reducer to accommodate the pole hose. Obviously you will need to replace the spent resin, so you will need a tds meter to monitor the quality of your water from the di.

Your house shouldn't use any more than 75 liters of water so a decent size di vessel should last a while.

The equipment you need isn't cheap to buy and maintain so will take a long time, if ever to justify the cost. Aren't there any decent window cleaners down your way?

Di filtered water works just as well as r/o and di water at cleaning windows with salt sea residue on them. Occasionally we have to use a cleaner first as the windows get a greasy substance on them. We live on the bay of the Tees river estuary and I'm sure that we get a lot of exhaust pollution from the ships anchored in the bay awaiting a dock to load/unload.

Here's an example of what I mean in action.

[media]

Hey cool stuff.

Thanks for the info. Just looked at that video and then looked at a load on youtube. Learning more and more about it.

I think you advice is great. I think an RO system is a bit over the top for me and DI vessel would work just as good.

I have seen plenty of cleaners in my area yes but i don't want the recurring bills. Im happy to pay out the initial cost plus resin/filters etc

I think id still prefilter it before it enters the DI vessel though.

So if i had 50m2 glass and washed the windows every 2 weeks ( for example ) then what would be the best size di vessel to get and how long or how many washes would it give me roughly speaking, before the resin would need changing (i know i should test my water first just, The inlaws have a TDS meter that reads about 80 ppm at mains lives just up the road, he has RO for his marine aquarium small scale.)

 

[Nudel]

If you are a diy guy, I'd build it myself.

If your inlaws have some experience with RO, perhaps they can suggest a cheap system. My TDS is 45 and I run it through a simple carbon filter and a single membrane. You don't need the throughput of a professional system when you're only cleaning your own house, just leave it running for a few days into a 100 litre barrel and you should have plenty of water. A membrane would last you forever, and you don't need to change it.

You also don't really need a professional window cleaning brush or pole. You can get cheap water fed poles (for cars, houses, decks etc).

The only issue is you need some kind of pump to move the stored water to the brush head. A decent aquarium pump might be enough.

 

[spruce]

Hey cool stuff.
Thanks for the info. Just looked at that video and then looked at a load on youtube. Learning more and more about it.

I think you advice is great. I think an RO system is a bit over the top for me and DI vessel would work just as good.

I have seen plenty of cleaners in my area yes but i don't want the recurring bills. Im happy to pay out the initial cost plus resin/filters etc

I think id still prefilter it before it enters the DI vessel though.

So if i had 50m2 glass and washed the windows every 2 weeks ( for example ) then what would be the best size di vessel to get and how long or how many washes would it give me roughly speaking, before the resin would need changing (i know i should test my water first just, The inlaws have a TDS meter that reads about 80 ppm at mains lives just up the road, he has RO for his marine aquarium small scale.)

This is my opinion.

I wouldn't bother with anything bigger than a 7 liter vessel unless your water is hard.

7 Litre DI Resin Pressure Vessel Canister - New Price - Sale Items Gardiner Pole Systems

Again some might disagree, but I find that this size is relatively easy and manageable when it comes to emptying and replacing resin. The bigger the vessel the more cumbersome to handle. If you filled the di with 6 liters of resin, that would give you 4 changes.

If you were using 150 liters of water a month and if your tap water tds is 120ppm then you will need to change resin once every 35 weeks Estimated resin costs would be around £3 per month (Resin at £80 per 25 liter bag.) 80ppm will extend the resin change to around 50 weeks with a monthly cost of around £1.75.

A Gardiner pole is usually fitted with 2 x 2mm jets for window cleaners. We use 100 psi pumps to pump water through 100 meters of hose. A good window cleaning flow would be between 1.5 and 2.0 lpm through those jets. Just using tap water pressure (which can vary) you may need to have the brush fitted with 3mm jets, or, at least know that this is an option if you water pressure isn't high enough. Fan jets would be a no no IMHO.

If you use 1/2" garden hose you should have enough to give you a reasonable flow at the brush head.

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[Budbecks]

This is my opinion.
I wouldn't bother with anything bigger than a 7 liter vessel unless your water is hard.

7 Litre DI Resin Pressure Vessel Canister - New Price - Sale Items Gardiner Pole Systems

Again some might disagree, but I find that this size is relatively easy and manageable when it comes to emptying and replacing resin. The bigger the vessel the more cumbersome to handle. If you filled the di with 6 liters of resin, that would give you 4 changes.

If you were using 150 liters of water a month and if your tap water tds is 120ppm then you will need to change resin once every 35 weeks Estimated resin costs would be around £3 per month (Resin at £80 per 25 liter bag.) 80ppm will extend the resin change to around 50 weeks with a monthly cost of around £1.75.

A Gardiner pole is usually fitted with 2 x 2mm jets for window cleaners. We use 100 psi pumps to pump water through 100 meters of hose. A good window cleaning flow would be between 1.5 and 2.0 lpm through those jets. Just using tap water pressure (which can vary) you may need to have the brush fitted with 3mm jets, or, at least know that this is an option if you water pressure isn't high enough. Fan jets would be a no no IMHO.

If you use 1/2" garden hose you should have enough to give you a reasonable flow at the brush head.

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Thanks for your input and figures. Sounds good to me.

I do actually have 2 x 24v 120/130 psi pump much like the 12v you use. I was thinking of processing 100 litres into a clean container and then using the pump to feed the pole/brush. Would just need a 24 volt transformer which i can get hold of as well.

I actually have a (salvaged off a job) RO system that i completely forgot i had, however i do not know whats what and how each piece works. I'll dig it out and take some photos. I may well be able to use some of it.

Pre filter wise, just a carbon/sediment prefilter would do the job before it enters the D ?

Cheers guys, you help is great

 

[spruce]

Thanks for your input and figures. Sounds good to me.
I do actually have 2 x 24v 120/130 psi pump much like the 12v you use. I was thinking of processing 100 litres into a clean container and then using the pump to feed the pole/brush. Would just need a 24 volt transformer which i can get hold of as well.

I actually have a (salvaged off a job) RO system that i completely forgot i had, however i do not know whats what and how each piece works. I'll dig it out and take some photos. I may well be able to use some of it.

Pre filter wise, just a carbon/sediment prefilter would do the job before it enters the D ?

Cheers guys, you help is great

I would consider adding a sediment prefilter. I'm sure Alex Gardiner mentioned once that a carbon block filter for di use only wasn't necessary but the sediment filter is important to stop those fines clogging up the resin molecules too quickly.

Prefilters need to be 1/2" fittings and 10" housings will be fine. Most prefilters are 1/4" which is useless for your application.

However, I would probably give these a miss to start off with as you will be using so little water when compared to the rest of us. You don't need to over complicate things.

If you go r/o then I would recommend both a sediment and carbon block. The carbon block removes chlorine which damages r/o membranes. If your water has a lot of sediment then a sediment filter is a must. How do you know if your water has a lot of sediment? The only way is to fit a sediment prefilter and see what happens over time. /emoticons/biggrin.png

The issue with pumps is that you need one that doesn't pump too much water. The Shurflo ones we use are 5.2lpm but before the days of electronic flow controllers we used 3.8 lpm pumps. Having a pump working flat out will cause cycling and the pressure switch is usually the first to go. 12/24vdc is a very aggressive current which burns the contacts on the microswitch. Some have even wired in a heavy duty relay to handle the arc.

Sorry, but this is just over complicating things for what you want IMHO.

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[Budbecks]

I would consider adding a sediment prefilter. I'm sure Alex Gardiner mentioned once that a carbon block filter for di use only wasn't necessary but the sediment filter is important to stop those fines clogging up the resin molecules too quickly.
Prefilters need to be 1/2" fittings and 10" housings will be fine. Most prefilters are 1/4" which is useless for your application.

However, I would probably give these a miss to start off with as you will be using so little water when compared to the rest of us. You don't need to over complicate things.

If you go r/o then I would recommend both a sediment and carbon block. The carbon block removes chlorine which damages r/o membranes. If your water has a lot of sediment then a sediment filter is a must. How do you know if your water has a lot of sediment? The only way is to fit a sediment prefilter and see what happens over time. /emoticons/biggrin.png

The issue with pumps is that you need one that doesn't pump too much water. The Shurflo ones we use are 5.2lpm but before the days of electronic flow controllers we used 3.8 lpm pumps. Having a pump working flat out will cause cycling and the pressure switch is usually the first to go. 12/24vdc is a very aggressive current which burns the contacts on the microswitch. Some have even wired in a heavy duty relay to handle the arc.

Sorry, but this is just over complicating things for what you want IMHO.

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No no, im all ears.

Yeah i would really want it as simple as possible really. i get your point with flow. The stuff i have is all small scale 1/4" 8/10mm pipes

I think i'll look at a getting a prefilter and leave the RO alone for the time being. If the DI works out well then there's no need to overcomplicate things like you say

 

[Kennygggkent]

I agree with spruce, a 7litre DI vessel would be perfect for what you need but I wouldn't bother with a pump nor storing pure water, just purify as you go as long as you have enough pressure at your tap. If you wanted to save money as well, I would recommend buying a second hand CLX 22 from somewhere, maybe ebay. I estimate, you could be rocking and rolling with just £250-300 if you bought everything second hand except the resin.

 

[spruce]

I agree with spruce, a 7litre DI vessel would be perfect for what you need but I wouldn't bother with a pump nor storing pure water, just purify as you go as long as you have enough pressure at your tap. If you wanted to save money as well, I would recommend buying a second hand CLX 22 from somewhere, maybe ebay. I estimate, you could be rocking and rolling with just £250-300 if you bought everything second hand except the resin.

I'm with you on this one - just use di and tap water pressure to do the rest.

Poles; The trouble is @Kennygggkent second hand clx's on Ebay seem to go for nearly as much as they cost new. I've seen one a couple of months back that sold for more than the Gardiner's new price when delivery was included as well.

Unfortunately we don't know the posters property as he says the ground slopes away. He says the max height of the windows is 8 to 10'. Does this mean he lives in a bungalow on the side of a hill? If this is so then he could well get away with a clx18.

I found that my clx22 and the slx22 I have does 95% of my work, so its a safe length to suggest. They are also extremely good value for money when you consider they include a brush, angle adapter and pole hose.

I saw this on YouTube this morning;

What is deionised water? - Spotless deionized water system

Its to give you an idea of a more fancy unit. Its expensive for a frame, di vessel and inline tds meter, but gives you an idea of the possibilities. There are some videos worth watching. On the USA website they are much more OTT with lots of waffle but the time lapse videos show what we as window cleaners using wfp experience every day cleaning windows.

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[adamangler]

easiest way to do it would be a back pack and a d.I vessel. Tap to d.I fill backpack and clean. Might need 2 or 3 fills. Job done.

Sounds like more money than sense to go to all this hassle to clean your own windows

 

[Budbecks]

Hey all,

I live by the sea and the slightest bit of wind throws sea spray over the windows. The windows we did have were 30 years old double glazed unit with the majority of the unit have gone. I am now spending the money on replacing the windows etc and can finally see out of them !! ha ha.

I ask for self cleaning glass on the new windows and they said it doesn't work with salt spray.

I live in a ground floor flat which is elevated on two sides and also the decking is raised over a grass bank hence the 8-10 ft height My biggest window is 2.5m high. I have a porch which is all glass but again from the outside is 8-10 ft high. Decking is also only accessible from the inside and we're not in during the day so a contractor would be unable to access the inside of the decking glass.

I got my TDS today and tested from 3 different taps and all produce a reading of 65 !! my turtle tank is 389 !!

I cut the grass every 2 weeks, If i have the equipment there and ready i'll go round and do the windows. Once its setup its no hassle for me. It'd pay for itself in time.

 

[steve garwood]

Hey all,
I live by the sea and the slightest bit of wind throws sea spray over the windows. The windows we did have were 30 years old double glazed unit with the majority of the unit have gone. I am now spending the money on replacing the windows etc and can finally see out of them !! ha ha.

I ask for self cleaning glass on the new windows and they said it doesn't work with salt spray.

I live in a ground floor flat which is elevated on two sides and also the decking is raised over a grass bank hence the 8-10 ft height My biggest window is 2.5m high. I have a porch which is all glass but again from the outside is 8-10 ft high. Decking is also only accessible from the inside and we're not in during the day so a contractor would be unable to access the inside of the decking glass.

I got my TDS today and tested from 3 different taps and all produce a reading of 65 !! my turtle tank is 389 !!

I cut the grass every 2 weeks, If i have the equipment there and ready i'll go round and do the windows. Once its setup its no hassle for me. It'd pay for itself in time.

Cool, you have a turtle tank!

I went into the library the other day and said "I'm after a book on turtles"

She asked "hardback?". I said "yeh and very small heads" /emoticons/biggrin.png

 

[Budbecks]

ha ha

 

[spruce]

A CLX18 is probably long enough for what you want. I would order it with a flocked Supreme brush.

 

[Den]

Just noticed this on eBay would do the job.

Complete Domestic Water-Fed Window Cleaning Kit

 

[spruce]

Just noticed this on eBay would do the job.
Complete Domestic Water-Fed Window Cleaning Kit

yes