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Iron Giant

Ro production nightmare



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Iron Giant

Spoke to Doug and he suggested a quick way to find out if a booster pump will increase pure production in my case is to use the pump I use for work.

So tonight I will take my pump box out of the van and put it after the garden tap to the ro hozelock inlet.

County Durham Lad

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Iron Giant

Booster pump it is I did as Doug advised and production improved straight off but as i could only run it for a minute or so I had to quickly take a tds reading as well whilst running.

Tds had crept to 005ppm but dropped to 002ppm in the quick test so should improve once booster pump is fitted next week.

County Durham Lad
 

Edited by Iron Giant

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spruce
7 hours ago, Iron Giant said:

Spoke to Doug and he suggested a quick way to find out if a booster pump will increase pure production in my case is to use the pump I use for work.

So tonight I will take my pump box out of the van and put it after the garden tap to the ro hozelock inlet.

County Durham Lad
 

That's a good way of checking if you need a booster pump as your r/o will use less water than the wfp pump can deliver. That deserves a high 5 for @doug atkinsonfor that excellent suggestion.

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Iron Giant
9 hours ago, spruce said:

That's a good way of checking if you need a booster pump as your r/o will use less water than the wfp pump can deliver. That deserves a high 5 for @doug atkinsonfor that excellent suggestion.


Doug did say I could only run the pump for 2 minutes max incase I caused any damage to the pump I think he said on the phone so it had to be quick. @spruce thanks again for taking time out and advising me I owe you a drink if you are ever over my way. 

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spruce
1 hour ago, Iron Giant said:


Doug did say I could only run the pump for 2 minutes max incase I caused any damage to the pump I think he said on the phone so it had to be quick. @spruce thanks again for taking time out and advising me I owe you a drink if you are ever over my way. 

 

I have found this interesting. Tbh I've gained far more from this thread than I've given. As with so many things in life, skills one has learnt from one experience can be carried over to another. I'm afraid in this instance, I failed and let myself down. So its me that should be thanking both you and @doug atkinson

 

I have an old friend in Northallerton (we've known her side of the family for more than 60 years and his side for 40 years) whose son is using a cheap Chen pump as a booster pump for his r/o. He has it on one of those mechanical timers that has 15 minute on off cycles. His is programmed for 15 minutes on and then 15 minutes off to facilitate the pump motor to cool down. Its been working for a good couple of years that way.

 

I took this photo of his setup in their downstairs toilet last year.

 

I'm disappointed with myself that it didn't think of suggesting this working concept as something for you to try. But its good that Doug suggested this as it will now be something I won't forget next time.

 

 

 

IMG_20170624_204818.jpg

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Iron Giant

@spruce glad you took the photo certainly something to consider more so with mine been outside in my shed and I hadn't thought about the pump possibly overheating if running for a number of hours and it maybe that I can also set it to shut off at a set time. 

One of my neighbours has some armoured cable, as mine will have to go from my outside rcd protected double socket into my shed so it would be better to have a socket inside the shed, I think i will have to have a sort out this weekend in preparation for the pump arriving on Monday then it will be simple set up to get production up and running fully on Monday evening. 

No need to be disappointed with your good self as your memory is as appalling as mine 🤣

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spruce
56 minutes ago, Iron Giant said:

@spruce glad you took the photo certainly something to consider more so with mine been outside in my shed and I hadn't thought about the pump possibly overheating if running for a number of hours and it maybe that I can also set it to shut off at a set time. 

One of my neighbours has some armoured cable, as mine will have to go from my outside rcd protected double socket into my shed so it would be better to have a socket inside the shed, I think i will have to have a sort out this weekend in preparation for the pump arriving on Monday then it will be simple set up to get production up and running fully on Monday evening. 

No need to be disappointed with your good self as your memory is as appalling as mine 🤣

 

My mate runs his Aquatec booster pump for the duration of his fill. He has a Smart Water system Gardiners used to sell that activates and deactivates his solenoid float switch and booster pump at the same time. But as with most, ambient temperatures are key. I would imagine most pumps will run much hotter in this weather than they would do in winter.

 

Our Northallerton friend don't have that automatic fill system. His r/o is at his dad's place and he relies on his dad to monitor the level of his IBC tank during the day and switch the r/o off when the tank is full. (Dad's retired and son says it gives him something constructive to do.) The r/o is in the down stairs toilet and the IBC tank is in a shed outside. You can see a small hole in the wall for his 1/4" pipe that goes into a small hole drilled in the top of the IBC tank.

 

 

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Jordiebarrett

We also have and use a Chen pump. We run ours sometimes for 12 hours straight if we drop our tanks low enough. Nought through eBay with warranty. Unfortunately it froze with the beast from the east so sent it back and got a new one within 2 days. We use a garden watering time to set times when the water is on and then a low pressure switch that detects a low flow rate so either the tank is full and shut off valve has activated or the water has turned off on the timer as it's gone 8pm...


Sent using the Window Cleaning Forums mobile app

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Iron Giant
On 06/07/2018 at 07:50, spruce said:

I couldn't find 1/4" tubing listed either 😕

 

They must have it somewhere as they supply small r/o systems. Maybe they aren't listed as they class it as a consumable. So you might have to phone them to order it.


The booster pump comes with 3 metres of JG tubing as part of the package 

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Iron Giant

All set for booster pump tomorrow, as my DIY skills are virtually non existent I think I have done a decent job 20180708_115631.jpg

County Durham Lad

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Dave B

I was told booster pump is best after pre filters and before membranes

Something to do with pre filter fittings not as resistant to the extra pressure from booster

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Iron Giant
I was told booster pump is best after pre filters and before membranes
Something to do with pre filter fittings not as resistant to the extra pressure from booster
Yes mate, that's the plan.

County Durham Lad

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Iron Giant

[emoji20] The saga continues it seems like their is air getting in some how I have checked and tightened all connections and even the changed some hozelock fittings but stills the same if not worse.


When I switch the pump on the hose from the pump to the first membranes vibrates like mad

County Durham Lad

[emoji20] The saga continues it seems like their is air getting in some how I have checked and tightened all connections and even the changed some hozelock fittings but stills the same if not worse.


When I switch the pump on the hose from the pump to the first membranes vibrates like mad

County Durham Lad


Arghh 20180709_163546.jpg

County Durham Lad

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spruce
13 hours ago, Iron Giant said:

emoji20.png The saga continues it seems like their is air getting in some how I have checked and tightened all connections and even the changed some hozelock fittings but stills the same if not worse.


When I switch the pump on the hose from the pump to the first membranes vibrates like mad

County Durham Lad
 

Arghh 20180709_163546.jpg

County Durham Lad
 

I've send the local windie who uses a booster pump a message to ask him if he experiences the same thing.

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Iron Giant
2 minutes ago, spruce said:

I've send the local windie who uses a booster pump a message to ask him if he experiences the same thing.


Thanks @spruce the issue with the air is on and off if I move the membranes you can hear a spluttering with the pump off then it settles but once I have given time for air to be pushed through without the pump running the issue continues and the pump is very noisy. 

But last night I went to Screwfix and bought a mains water pressure gauge and my tap pressure reading was 65psi, So I am now assuming that i damaged the membranes last week and the issue with the pump could be down the membranes being damaged 

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spruce
19 minutes ago, Iron Giant said:


Thanks @spruce the issue with the air is on and off if I move the membranes you can hear a spluttering with the pump off then it settles but once I have given time for air to be pushed through without the pump running the issue continues and the pump is very noisy. 

But last night I went to Screwfix and bought a mains water pressure gauge and my tap pressure reading was 65psi, So I am now assuming that i damaged the membranes last week and the issue with the pump could be down the membranes being damaged 

There shouldn't be air in the line as it should have bleed through very quickly. If its not, then the pump is sucking air in somewhere. It will be at a join somewhere before the pump.

 

I've just had a response back from my mate and he says he doesn't experience a vibration like you are reporting. He says the pump works really well and he has had it a good 5 years. He has his connected between the prefilters and the membranes the same as you have.

 

So you might have to get back to PF and report the issue. I don't know exactly how that pump works but I'm pretty certain it will be a diaphram pump based on a similar design to our wfp pumps on the van. I think they also have a pressure relief valve inside the head to maintain maximum pressure and bleed an excess back into the pump inlet. So the pump will run continously. If the water being pump is bleeding away too fast, such as through the waste restrictor, then you could get a water hammer which causes that vibration. 

 

I've noticed a similar pumping vibration when my son uses his backpack, although not 'vibrating like mad'. He likes his flow painfully slow so very little pressure builds up in his pole hose. When I use it I turn up the flow and the pumping vibration is much less.

Edited by spruce

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Iron Giant

@spruce I spoke to PF yesterday and they advised what i had done which was to run the ro without pump to allow any air through when the spluttering stopped I turned the pump on and it started to vibrate straight away. All connections are tight and JG fittings fully pushed in. 

But if my tap pressure was  65psi  at 7 pm last night then surely I have enough tap pressure to produce pure at the expected production rate, Were as currently the pure is a trickle and has being all last night into this morning  and the waste flow is 2-3 times fast so thinking i need to order new membranes from @doug atkinson this morning


And the promised 3 metres of JG tubing never came with my booster pump from PF 

Edited by Iron Giant

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spruce

65 psi was much higher than we had in our 450gpd days and we run that without a booster pump. At 250ppm tap water tds the r/o rejection rate was 4ppm. We had 40psi w/p @Iron Giant

 

The reason why my mate fitted a booster pump is that he has a 300gpd and it wasn't producing enough water for his daily requirements, especially when he had a second cleaner working with him.

Edited by spruce

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Iron Giant
65 psi was much higher than we had in our 450gpd days and we run that without a booster pump. At 250ppm tap water tds the r/o rejection rate was 4ppm. We had 40psi w/p [mention=3115]Iron Giant[/mention]
 
The reason why my mate fitted a booster pump is that he has a 300gpd and it wasn't producing enough water for his daily requirements, especially when he had a second cleaner working with him.
Tap tds is 79 so it's got too be the membranes?????

County Durham Lad

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doug atkinson

Have had a look at the pump that Pure Freedom advertise and do not see any specification in their listing. The Aquatec 8800 series are three different model types. Which one they sell I cannot tell.

 

It is also claimed it is suitable for 200/300/450 R/O system. For pressure yes they are correct but for output far off the mark.

 

The key is looking at the specification. If this was the top model then the best you will get of pure is 400 ml per minute approx..

 

If you ticked all the boxes flow and pressure then the 450 gpd is capable of 1.1 litres a minute so to me it does look like it is not suitable for 450 gpd system.

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Iron Giant
Have had a look at the pump that Pure Freedom advertise and do not see any specification in their listing. The Aquatec 8800 series are three different model types. Which one they sell I cannot tell.
 
It is also claimed it is suitable for 200/300/450 R/O system. For pressure yes they are correct but for output far off the mark.
 
The key is looking at the specification. If this was the top model then the best you will get of pure is 400 ml per minute approx..
 
If you ticked all the boxes flow and pressure then the 450 gpd is capable of 1.1 litres a minute so to me it does look like it is not suitable for 450 gpd system.
Not sure if this will help as numbers are affected. I did all that you recommended when we spoke on the phone today and production of pure is still now down to the barely a trickle with or without the booster pump the flow of produces pure doesn't improve at all all. 20180710_174753.jpg

County Durham Lad

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doug atkinson

That pump is not suitable

 

I have an answer from the tech team and having it on flush for such a long time will foul up the membranes hence slow production.

 

The last membrane that goes into the flow restrictor disconnect the blue tube from the T- Piece and if you can measure how long it takes to do say 400 ml and the ppm. Then soak the membrane in white vinegar must be covered for about an hour then insert back and flush for 10 mins. Then repeat the readings again and hopefully this will have unclogged it.

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Iron Giant
22 hours ago, doug atkinson said:

That pump is not suitable

 

I have an answer from the tech team and having it on flush for such a long time will foul up the membranes hence slow production.

 

The last membrane that goes into the flow restrictor disconnect the blue tube from the T- Piece and if you can measure how long it takes to do say 400 ml and the ppm. Then soak the membrane in white vinegar must be covered for about an hour then insert back and flush for 10 mins. Then repeat the readings again and hopefully this will have unclogged it.



Thanks @doug atkinson I assume i am stuck with the pump now ☹️, As for the white vinegar I am guessing they didn't mean white malt vinegar but the other type which is used for cleaning etc

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Iron Giant

So changed membranes for brand new ones and I certain I can have connected everything correctly as I do them one by one.

Pure production is still virtually non existent just a tiny trickle, tap tds is 56ppm and water pressure on 60 psi when I flush the ro the pure reading is 5ppm but on the production its 23ppm [emoji20] 20180715_095218.jpg20180715_095230.jpg20180715_095246.jpg

County Durham Lad

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