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Two man set up...or not?



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Incheck

We are a bit unconventional, we run off backpacks and 25 L barrels. Has its pros and cons but i like the idea of being able to completely empty the van so we can use it for other purposes. We are also double di in the garage. So no pumps, batteries, r.o.s etc to break down. Always have 2 backpacks so if one packs in halfway through the day we are still running at some sort of pace as one person can always go trad


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Part Timer
1 hour ago, Daniel Perkins said:

As regards the 2 man setup, what would the minimum size tank people would recommend for a 2 man setup 

Minimum is 650l tank for 2 man setup, my son and I can empty one in 5 hours on big commercial jobs 

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Daniel Perkins

Ok cheers, so 2 man system out which is fine as most of my work is still trad anyways, I would just like having the tank there for the jobs that trad won't cut it for.

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Green Pro Clean Ltd

If you're still doing lots of trad ladder then it should be 2 men just from a safety point of view.  

 

You also have a duty of care to employees to keep them safe so going WFP is the way forward as far as keeping lads (or lasses) safe goes. 

 

 For a long time I swore by 1 man to a van. 4 months ago we switched to a 2 man set up and I have realised I should have done it years ago.  

 

Regarding tanks, as @Part Timer said 650L min but bigger the better for 2 man op. 

 

Remember you can put 300L in a 650L tank but you cant put 650L in a 300L tank.   

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Dave Shaw
If you're still doing lots of trad ladder then it should be 2 men just from a safety point of view.  
 
You also have a duty of care to employees to keep them safe so going WFP is the way forward as far as keeping lads (or lasses) safe goes. 
 
 For a long time I swore by 1 man to a van. 4 months ago we switched to a 2 man set up and I have realised I should have done it years ago.  
 
Regarding tanks, as [mention=2712]Part Timer[/mention] said 650L min but bigger the better for 2 man op. 
 
Remember you can put 300L in a 650L tank but you cant put 650L in a 300L tank.   

I don’t mean to rub it in but I told you so. As usual Dave doesn’t know what he’s talking about. [emoji848]


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Den

My son and myself work together we use approx 500l a day that’s a full day very occasionally we go over but my work is very local and quite often go home for lunch so can top if need be.

 

he does any ladder jobs like the odd window above a flat roof garage, we work great as a team. 

 

univavle is a must and also using 100degree fanjets helps save water imo. 

 

I use a 325 facelift and my son uses 25l barrels that are fed by pump and into hosereel, so apart my having to transfer the inlets from the barrels x4 a day beats which takes seconds it almost like having a second tank install. 

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Daniel Perkins
On 02/11/2018 at 08:47, Den said:

My son and myself work together we use approx 500l a day that’s a full day very occasionally we go over but my work is very local and quite often go home for lunch so can top if need be.

 

he does any ladder jobs like the odd window above a flat roof garage, we work great as a team. 

 

univavle is a must and also using 100degree fanjets helps save water imo. 

 

I use a 325 facelift and my son uses 25l barrels that are fed by pump and into hosereel, so apart my having to transfer the inlets from the barrels x4 a day beats which takes seconds it almost like having a second tank install. 

Hey mate,

Just got my facelift 325 delivered yesterday, just a few questions if you don't mind. How many brackets did you get to bolt down tank & did you get bolts/spreader plates with that or you have to buy it yourself? I only got one bracket and that's it, been on to WCW about it and waiting for reply. I've been using a PF trolley for awhile now and when I need to charge I plug power cord into battery, does charging a leisure battery work a different way? I haven't got a power cord or the likes to charge the battery. 

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Den

with my system I got four brackets two for each side.

 

you only get tecscrews which are attached to the four bracket and attached to the pallet these aren't safe IMO, you need to buy some nuts bolts and spreader plates.

 

you would have received a 75ah or 85ah battery with your facedlift but unfortunately you have to buy a charger yourself I have a smart charger I have the one below used this everyday for two years works perfect it also as quick release SAE connector so son messing about with crocodile clips. 

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/6V-12v-4A-Electronic-Smart-Car-Battery-Fast-Trickle-Charger-WET-AGM-ACID-Maypole/121219067543?epid=1942859756&hash=item1c39382e97:g:Er0AAOSw~y9ZAer0

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spruce
On 28/09/2018 at 08:35, Teaboy said:
If you want it bad enough you’ll find it no matter what.

Working with a mate you have to find twice the work but in theory have halve the bills


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In a business like this I must admit going into partnership with a mate would be low on my list of ideals asking for issues at every opportunity


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Sadly, I would have to agree. We have seen a few examples of local windies who have fallen out with each other.
It's usually when one of them gets the hump when he believes he is doing the most work but they are splitting the takings equally. Years back we had "Little and Large"working traditionally. Little was up and down the ladder doing tops and Large did the bottoms because he was to big and fat to climb ladders. Little feel out with Large as he felt he was doing the most work.
It got quite ugly.



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Edited by spruce

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P4dstar
1 hour ago, Den said:

with my system I got four brackets two for each side.

 

you only get tecscrews which are attached to the four bracket and attached to the pallet these aren't safe IMO, you need to buy some nuts bolts and spreader plates.

 

you would have received a 75ah or 85ah battery with your facedlift but unfortunately you have to buy a charger yourself I have a smart charger I have the one below used this everyday for two years works perfect it also as quick release SAE connector so son messing about with crocodile clips. 

Wow, over a grand on a system and they can't even supply a charger. Thats pretty shocking. Stick £50 on the price and give me a plug in charger any day of the week!

 

1 hour ago, spruce said:

Sadly, I would have to agree. We have seen a few examples of local windies who have fallen out with each other.
It's usually when one of them gets the hump when he believes he is doing the most work but they are splitting the takings equally. Years back we had "Little and Large"working traditionally. Little was up and down the ladder doing tops and Large did the bottoms because he was to big and fat to climb ladders. Little feel out with Large as he felt he was doing the most work.
It got quite ugly.
 

Before this I had a failed business idea of offering Stag and Hen parties. Started it with a friend. Knocked it on the head before there was any ill feeling but I basically built 85-90% of the website. It was frustrating and I wasn't willing to lose a friend over it. When I initially threw the idea out about becoming a window cleaner it was with the intention of both of us doing it. He was too indecisive so I cut strings and told him I was going for it alone. No hard feelings etc, he has helped me a lot since I started but I am glad I went alone.

 

If you're both going to become window cleaners there is no reason you can't work together as 2 separate businesses, 2 separate business names each concentrating on a territory. It would always be good to have someone to share the cost of an RO with. Once window cleaning is your only income stream then you need to have back ups of pretty much everything. It would be good to split the cost of things like that. If you get a big job on its nice to have someone to share the load. Much easier to break ties that way than a partnership.

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Den

Thought that was standard with all the big installers they supply the battery but not the charger I could easily be corrected though 😕

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P4dstar
21 minutes ago, Den said:

Thought that was standard with all the big installers they supply the battery but not the charger I could easily be corrected though 😕

Just seems daft mate. If they gave me a phone without a charger I wouldn't be happy. I just checked back on the website as I remembered it saying plug and go but it actually says just charge and go, makes no mention of charger sold separately. You're probably right but it just seems so wrong. It wouldn't be a huge amount of effort for them to convert it to a kettle lead charging port like a backpack has. That is what I assumed they did to be honest, I also assumed the fitted ones would come with a split charge relay, do they?

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Den
4 minutes ago, P4dstar said:

Just seems daft mate. If they gave me a phone without a charger I wouldn't be happy. I just checked back on the website as I remembered it saying plug and go but it actually says just charge and go, makes no mention of charger sold separately. You're probably right but it just seems so wrong. It wouldn't be a huge amount of effort for them to convert it to a kettle lead charging port like a backpack has. That is what I assumed they did to be honest, I also assumed the fitted ones would come with a split charge relay, do they?

Split charge relays and static trickle as far as I know are optional extras and they charge a fair whack for them. 

 

Had my facelift system 2.5 to  3 years and always used the above charger I posted think it was approx £20 then works great for the money can leave on all night if required as it's a smart charger quick release connectors.

 

I have a split charge relay but don't do enough mileage to be effective will not bother with another when I get my new van only takes a few seconds to reel extension lead out and charge. 

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Daniel Perkins
with my system I got four brackets two for each side.  

you only get tecscrews which are attached to the four bracket and attached to the pallet these aren't safe IMO, you need to buy some nuts bolts and spreader plates.

 

you would have received a 75ah or 85ah battery with your facedlift but unfortunately you have to buy a charger yourself I have a smart charger I have the one below used this everyday for two years works perfect it also as quick release SAE connector so son messing about with crocodile clips. 

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/6V-12v-4A-Electronic-Smart-Car-Battery-Fast-Trickle-Charger-WET-AGM-ACID-Maypole/121219067543?epid=1942859756&hash=item1c39382e97:g:Er0AAOSw~y9ZAer0

 

Lovely cheers mate. Yeah missing 3 brackets and screws. I 'll get that charger also if you recommend it.. bit stingy them not throwing a charger in thought they would. I did envisage the charger being the same as pure freedom trolley for some reason. 

 

Could you recommend anywhere to get the spreader plates and bolts or would likes of b and q suffice?

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spruce
1 hour ago, Daniel Perkins said:

Lovely cheers mate. Yeah missing 3 brackets and screws. I 'll get that charger also if you recommend it.. bit stingy them not throwing a charger in thought they would. I did envisage the charger being the same as pure freedom trolley for some reason. 

 

Could you recommend anywhere to get the spreader plates and bolts or would likes of b and q suffice?

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50mm x 6mm mild steel flat bar is ok cut to the length you need.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/6-0mm-Mild-Steel-FLAT-BAR-20-25-30-40-50-60-75-100mm-available-in-8-lengths/291539523900?hash=item43e11c193c:m:mf1QUKRTLhXbEfD0gzz9U-A:rk:3:pf:0

 

I would prefer stainless steel as it won't rust. Obviously you will need to drill the holes.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/FLAT-BAR-STAINLESS-STEEL-Flat-Bar-Plate-Strip-Many-sizes-and-lengths/172948804627?hash=item28448d5413:m:mpmJKPravT6oxj91ZrianaQ:rk:1:pf:0&var=471709860684

 

You need high tensile 8.8 grade zinc plated M10 bolts with M10 high tensile nuts (M10 depending on the internal brackets. M10 = a 10mm hole approx.)

I have just recieved a packet of these, but the length you order could be different as mine have to go through the chassis box section.

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/M10-Grade-8-8-High-Tensile-Zinc-Plated-Fully-Threaded-Set-Screws-Steel-Bolts/182873844105?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&var=690175350104&_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649

 

This windie used angle iron for his van's spreader plates. I think it was 50 x 5 angle iron.

spreader plates.jpg

Edited by spruce

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Daniel Perkins
50mm x 6mm mild steel flat bar is ok cut to the length you need.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/6-0mm-Mild-Steel-FLAT-BAR-20-25-30-40-50-60-75-100mm-available-in-8-lengths/291539523900?hash=item43e11c193c:m:mf1QUKRTLhXbEfD0gzz9U-A:rk:3:pf:0
 
I would prefer stainless steel as it won't rust. Obviously you will need to drill the holes.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/FLAT-BAR-STAINLESS-STEEL-Flat-Bar-Plate-Strip-Many-sizes-and-lengths/172948804627?hash=item28448d5413:m:mpmJKPravT6oxj91ZrianaQ:rk:1:pf:0&var=471709860684
 
You need high tensile 8.8 grade zinc plated M10 bolts with M10 high tensile nuts (M10 depending on the internal brackets. M10 = a 10mm hole approx.)
I have just recieved a packet of these, but the length you order could be different as mine have to go through the chassis box section.
 
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/M10-Grade-8-8-High-Tensile-Zinc-Plated-Fully-Threaded-Set-Screws-Steel-Bolts/182873844105?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&var=690175350104&_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649
 
This windie used angle iron for his van's spreader plates. I think it was 50 x 5 angle iron.
1678307662_spreaderplates.jpg.6d91ea4d08cda3a12a5828aeb430bcba.jpg
Amazing info, appreciate it mate.

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Daniel Perkins

Ordered that charger thanks Den

 

@spruce i'm still waiting for WCW to send me the other 3 brackets to secure the tank. I'm going to order the spreader plates and ht screw you suggested, I take it i need to order m10 nuts aswell? I'm just wondering has anyone put spreader plates under VW Caddy Maxi, was going to order the 50mmx60mmx200mm & maybe the m10x120mm screws. Unfortunately I won't be picking van up until January so haven't done the measurements under the chassis, ideally I would like 325l tank to go length ways across back of bulkhead. If anyone else has had had tank secured on the caddy maxi any info would be great, cheers.

Edited by Daniel Perkins

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Den

Mine is instllalled in a Lwb t230 transit connect facing the rear doors there was a awkward bracket the needed shaping due to some thing being in the way can’t remember what it was as my mate installed it. 

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Daniel Perkins

Cheers Den, I wasn't sure whether to order the plates and bolts before I get someone to look underneath the chassis and see what's what.

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Den

Sorry that should read spreader plate that need to be shaped think part of the chassis was in the way he just used a angle grinder to shape that was the longest part of the job as it was screwed at first before I had it bolted.

 

When I received mine the compact was screwed down by it mounts to the pallet, how was your delivered was it not screwed to the pallet?

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Daniel Perkins
7 hours ago, Den said:

Sorry that should read spreader plate that need to be shaped think part of the chassis was in the way he just used a angle grinder to shape that was the longest part of the job as it was screwed at first before I had it bolted.

 

When I received mine the compact was screwed down by it mounts to the pallet, how was your delivered was it not screwed to the pallet?

Yeah mate, that's exactly what WCW said was usually the case.. apparently was meant to be screwed down on pallet but wasn't. Instead had that hard plastic strips & shrink wrapped and there was one loose bracket sitting on top of tank. I have it out the back now sitting out my back on the pallet, was a bit a job trying to get it through the house as obviously the weight of it and battery. Was speaking to WCW about it on Thursday and not yet heard back from them. Their orders are usually spot on in the past but missing several other items from my order and that's not including brackets and bolts. I put it down to black friday, i'd imagine they were crazy busy but i hope they can sort it out.

 

I'm buying Caddy from a big VW dealer over here, was going to ask them to secure the tank.. not sure if they will do it though especially if spreader plates need to be altered. I'm hoping someone on here has caddy maxi and can give me some advice. Maybe a local mechanic would be better shout, I just thought if I mentioned the name of big VW dealer to insurance company, that they installed it ... the insurance company won't ask any many questions about safety etc.

Edited by Daniel Perkins

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spruce
10 hours ago, Daniel Perkins said:

Ordered that charger thanks Den

 

@spruce i'm still waiting for WCW to send me the other 3 brackets to secure the tank. I'm going to order the spreader plates and ht screw you suggested, I take it i need to order m10 nuts aswell? I'm just wondering has anyone put spreader plates under VW Caddy Maxi, was going to order the 50mmx60mmx200mm & maybe the m10x120mm screws. Unfortunately I won't be picking van up until January so haven't done the measurements under the chassis, ideally I would like 325l tank to go length ways across back of bulkhead. If anyone else has had had tank secured on the caddy maxi any info would be great, cheers.

 

yes M10 nuts as well.

 

I didn't realise the van was 'still in the wings'. If the design is the same as other 'car derived' vans are then you are going to have to find a work around for the front securing bolts. (Car derived vans later became known as people carriers/movers.) The issue you will have to work around will be the same as most of these and deals with the way the manufacturers bridged the rear footwells with the cargo floor to make it level.

On both the Citroen Berlingo and Ford Transit Connect there is a small gap behind the inside panels that you could access a small section of the floor. On the Berlingo that space was rather small. We used 25 x 5 by about 150mm flat bar as this was all we could get in there. The gap was not much bigger on the lwb Connect. Both these vans had the fuel tanks underneath the rear seating area, so the tank had to 'straddle' that. Access to the spreader plates at the back was between the end of the diesel tank brackets and the rear axle.

 

If you need to have brackets on the sides of the tank (with the tank across the bulkhead this would be the front and back of the tank) then you may need to drop the diesel tank to get to access to fit the bolts above the tank. (Remember that you have a limited gap between the top of the diesel tank and the floor so you need to be careful you don't puncture the tank. A plylining company fitted 150 plylining kits to 150 Citroen Berlingo vans In Yorkshire 15 years ago and the fitter used screws which were too long to secure the floor. That plylining company had to pay for the supply and fitment of 150 replacement fuel tanks.)

 

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Daniel Perkins
3 hours ago, spruce said:

 

yes M10 nuts as well.

 

I didn't realise the van was 'still in the wings'. If the design is the same as other 'car derived' vans are then you are going to have to find a work around for the front securing bolts. (Car derived vans later became known as people carriers/movers.) The issue you will have to work around will be the same as most of these and deals with the way the manufacturers bridged the rear footwells with the cargo floor to make it level.

On both the Citroen Berlingo and Ford Transit Connect there is a small gap behind the inside panels that you could access a small section of the floor. On the Berlingo that space was rather small. We used 25 x 5 by about 150mm flat bar as this was all we could get in there. The gap was not much bigger on the lwb Connect. Both these vans had the fuel tanks underneath the rear seating area, so the tank had to 'straddle' that. Access to the spreader plates at the back was between the end of the diesel tank brackets and the rear axle.

 

If you need to have brackets on the sides of the tank (with the tank across the bulkhead this would be the front and back of the tank) then you may need to drop the diesel tank to get to access to fit the bolts above the tank. (Remember that you have a limited gap between the top of the diesel tank and the floor so you need to be careful you don't puncture the tank. A plylining company fitted 150 plylining kits to 150 Citroen Berlingo vans In Yorkshire 15 years ago and the fitter used screws which were too long to secure the floor. That plylining company had to pay for the supply and fitment of 150 replacement fuel tanks.)

 

As per usual a foundation of information, thanks mate.

 

Yeah I'm registering for VAT again, which can take time and then I will claim back the VAT on the van, so until that is setup and ready to go I have to hold out on the van. I jumped at the system on WCW because of the 25% off on black friday but ideally it would be nice to have a van to put it into lol. I suppose until I look under I won't really know. I wonder would it be easier having the tank length ways? That would be fine me actually if it meant making things easier under the chassis, don't fancy taking the chance with the fuel tank, I wouldn't be adverse to getting a Transit Connect lwb either but not many available over here at the moment. Is there much of a difference between the plain hex nut as oppose to the Nyloc hex? 

Unfortunately being located in Ireland it can be a bloody slow process ordering gear from the UK if something goes wrong with your order like it has in this case, i'm hoping that WCW can get it sorted quickly enough.

Edited by Daniel Perkins

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