Thoughts on frost prevention

I was talking with @AGlassAct a few days back and we were discussing water heaters for certain reasons.  

Now with the frosts already kicking in we be prepared.  

Neil said something of interest... movng water wont freeze..... I think it's more like will take way longer to freeze.  

Here's what i'm thinking.  My battery is a 130mah on a SCR all day so pretty much stays weĺl charged. 

When I fill my tank at the end of the day can I not simply put the end of the hose reel into the tank (to complete a loop) and leave the controller on a lower setting of around say 20 for the night? 

Thoughts and implications?  To our resident boffins @AGlassAct @spruce @Kleenwell

My 3kw immersion has been on for 8 hours the last 2 nights, its a cracking thing!

3 nights ago the frost set in and I had too put a heater in the van for an hour before work, the last two days my hose has been warm till the end of the day.

It basically turns my 650 ltr tank into a massive radiator in the back of the van, everything in there is toasty. It's the best solution for me because it gives me very effective frost protection overnight and then all day long too as the water stays warm till the end of the day keeping the hoses soft and supple.

It won't allow me to clean with hot water, but I suppose if you do have a boiler or similar you would use less fuel to bring the water heat up as its already part way there. I dont need hot anyway as 99% of windows just need a clean, the other 1% I keep a 100ml bottle of vision tfr in my pocket and put a squirt on the brush. Or superscrape.

paul alan said:

My 3kw immersion has been on for 8 hours the last 2 nights, its a cracking thing!

3 nights ago the frost set in and I had too put a heater in the van for an hour before work, the last two days my hose has been warm till the end of the day.

It basically turns my 650 ltr tank into a massive radiator in the back of the van, everything in there is toasty. It's the best solution for me because it gives me very effective frost protection overnight and then all day long too as the water stays warm till the end of the day keeping the hoses soft and supple.

It won't allow me to clean with hot water, but I suppose if you do have a boiler or similar you would use less fuel to bring the water heat up as its already part way there. I dont need hot anyway as 99% of windows just need a clean, the other 1% I keep a 100ml bottle of vision tfr in my pocket and put a squirt on the brush. Or superscrape.

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Could you put a link up of the 3kw immersion heater you have please mate ?

Green Pro Clean Ltd said:

When I fill my tank at the end of the day can I not simply put the end of the hose reel into the tank (to complete a loop) and leave the controller on a lower setting of around say 20 for the night? 

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Yes, you can.

If it's very cold it will freeze at one point, of course, but due to the water flow it'll not form a plug instantly, but slowly freeze from the outside of the hose towards the centre. Kind of like how a heart attack works with a clogged artery I guess. 

I'd put the hose reel end deep into the tank in case the top starts freezing it won't overfill.

RWCleaning - an immersion element is an immersion element, look on screwfix they have all types including titanium. I used to use an immersion heater to pre-heat my tank but had so many reliability issues I haven’t bothered again. If I was to re-visit the idea I would either have a custom one made or go for a 2kw element, I think the 3kw puts too much strain on domestic electrics/extension leads.
Green pro clean, the circulation route is something I’m looking at and will be pretty simple to achieve- I’d personally disconnect the brush head and have a connection back into the tank or just plug the hose reel connector (that connects to your tubeless setup) straight to back into the tank. It would be easy to rig up a thermostat so the pump would kick in if the temperature dropped below 5 degrees.
The day I had with my webasto yesterday it will be ripped out and driven over - hopefully today with be better!!!!


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It came with my tank, I bought it second hand.

One thing, if you put a 3 kw immersion heater in you need to put a 16a supply to it. I rigged mine up straight from the consumer unit and got a 16amp timer and 16amp cable with a 16amp connector.

YOU NEED TO TO DO THIS, AND IF YOU CANT DO IT YOURSELF SAFELY AND PROPERLY GET A SPARK IN!

I have an electrical background if you don't get a spark to do it or risk burning down your house!

Green Pro Clean Ltd said:

I was talking with @AGlassAct a few days back and we were discussing water heaters for certain reasons.  

Now with the frosts already kicking in we be prepared.  

Neil said something of interest... movng water wont freeze..... I think it's more like will take way longer to freeze.  

Here's what i'm thinking.  My battery is a 130mah on a SCR all day so pretty much stays weĺl charged. 

When I fill my tank at the end of the day can I not simply put the end of the hose reel into the tank (to complete a loop) and leave the controller on a lower setting of around say 20 for the night? 

Thoughts and implications?  To our resident boffins @AGlassAct @spruce @Kleenwell

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I don't think anyone has definitively stated at what temperature moving water eventually freezes.

They say that when water in moving the water molecules bump and rub against each other and do create a little heat from friction. The more turbulent the water flow the higher its internal temperature. This could just mean that the water will still freeze at 0 degrees but because its moving its a little warmer than 0 degrees.

I wouldn't recommend this as a way to keep the van from freezing up tbh.

spruce said:

I don't think anyone has definitively stated at what temperature moving water eventually freezes.

They say that when water in moving the water molecules bump and rub against each other and do create a little heat from friction. This could just mean that the water will still freeze at 0 degrees but because its moving its a little warmer than 0 degrees.

I wouldn't recommend this as a way to keep the van from freezing up tbh.

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The diameter of the hose would be a factor, minibore would be the worst.

paul alan said:

The diameter of the hose would be a factor, minibore would be the worst.

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But water would move quicker through a smaller diamt hose so create more friction and more heat. ? Slower moving water would have more chance of freezing up.

Honestly, I don't know.

One of the local lads parks his van on the street. He switches his water off at the tank, undoes his inlet filter, switches the pumps on and pushes all the water out of this pipes after the pump. Hose reels get taken inside.

He has worked like that for years. Son in law did the same. There was only once in 4 winters that the water in the pipe from the tank to the pump froze. We spend a bit of time and wrapped it in a warm towel which cleared a water 'path'.

theres a few ways to keep it all from freezing during the night rangeing from diesel heaters and immersion right down to just bringing everything in at night to keep warm,

I believe this winters not going to be too kind on us and I've been prepping for that but going back to green pro's question I don't think it would work-or if it did then there may be at some point where it may freeze the hose on the hose reel then you are kinda screwed.

tyre warmers have been used in the past but with hit and miss results,heat tracing also.

there is another way although not as yet proven to work but the maths pans out and theres no reason why it wouldn't work but it takes a while to explain and i'm off out to do some now but if theres enough intrest I can try and explain it

RWCleaning said:

Could you put a link up of the 3kw immersion heater you have please mate ?

Click to expand...

paul alan said:

It came with my tank, I bought it second hand.

One thing, if you put a 3 kw immersion heater in you need to put a 16a supply to it. I rigged mine up straight from the consumer unit and got a 16amp timer and 16amp cable with a 16amp connector.

YOU NEED TO TO DO THIS, AND IF YOU CANT DO IT YOURSELF SAFELY AND PROPERLY GET A SPARK IN!

I have an electrical background if you don't get a spark to do it or risk burning down your house!

Click to expand...

If I had an immersion heater in my tank then I would be looking to insulated around the outside of it but little heat would escape to heat the van overnight unless you didn't heat the top.

kevinc250 said:

theres a few ways to keep it all from freezing during the night rangeing from diesel heaters and immersion right down to just bringing everything in at night to keep warm,

I believe this winters not going to be too kind on us and I've been prepping for that but going back to green pro's question I don't think it would work-or if it did then there may be at some point where it may freeze the hose on the hose reel then you are kinda screwed.

tyre warmers have been used in the past but with hit and miss results,heat tracing also.

there is another way although not as yet proven to work but the maths pans out and theres no reason why it wouldn't work but it takes a while to explain and i'm off out to do some now but if theres enough intrest I can try and explain it

Click to expand...

I forgot about heat tracing. Another windie further up north used that on his pipe from the tank to the pump he also drained down. He said it worked for him. He switched it on in the morning a while before heading out to work and ran it from his leisure battery.

scottish cleaning service said:

If I had an immersion heater in my tank then I would be looking to insulated around the outside of it but little heat would escape to heat the van overnight unless you didn't heat the top.

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That why I have not insulated my tank, it radiates throughout. It does retain enough heat to keep the hose warm to the touch till the end of the day. 5pm the last two days.

@Green Pro Clean Ltd

dont you have 2 heaters in your tank?

if so, I would fit a fitting to your tank that accepts your hose reel connector.   Run the pump slow over night (battery on trickle charge as you have mains to the van)  this will mean all hoses, pump and fitting all have an even heat distribution.

if you can keep the water at 5 or above, it won’t freeze. 

My static tank, I heated it to 25 and 2 days later, it was still at 18 degrees.  I have it wrapped with silver bubble wrap 

The worst winter we experienced in the North East was 2011/2012. My IBC tank is in the garage and never had any ice in it. The transfer hose still had water inside it and that froze.

We have used cold water since the begining and it seems to work fine for us. In winter it would be nice to have more manageable hoses, but its not essential. We drained most of the water from my son's van's tank, drained the pump and hoses and left the van to freeze up. The 25mm or so of water left in the bottom of the tank froze solid but it soon thawed out when the cold snap passed.

I put an 800 watt heater in my van with a froststat controller. The heater comes on at 1 degree and switches off at 4 degrees. The inside of the van has never frozen up in all the time I've done this.

From my window cleaning experience I would always advise a new comer to wfp to get the best cleaning equipment they could afford, a decent van, a good r/o system etc before considering upgrading to hot water. IMHO is a 'nice to have' rather than being an essential to cleaning windows.

I have an immersion in my tank also wrapped tank in aluminium foil insulation have all hoses wrapped with pipe insulation and next thing is make a box to cover both di's out of a kingspan insultion board

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spruce said:

The worst winter we experienced in the North East was 2011/2012. 

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The first winter after I set the business up ?Impeccable timing as always.

spruce said:

IMHO is a 'nice to have' rather than being an essential to cleaning windows.

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It is not essential but does make the working day a lot easier

I remember when i was plumbing the books said that moving water freezes when it reaches -4C so it would definitely benefit to have a cycle going

Especially if you’re up north or inland. Here i have 25L tanks sat in an unheated van, the coldest we usually see is -4 or -5. The only time they have ever partially frozen is during the beast from the east when it went down to -8 or something.

Water expands when it freezes. So a good tip is to never leave your tank full. If you have a 500L tank, only ever keep 300L or so in it. Just so the water has room to expand at the top. It would have to be considerably cold for a big ole tank like that to completely freeze. The more immediate concerns are hosepipes splitting and pumps cracking as the diameters in question /bodies of water are smaller. I take the backpacks indoors and water fed poles if i ever think its going to get to -3 or below overnight. Insulating the tank with a big jacket of some sort and having a running cycle should (in the uk) prevent issues with the main tank freezing completely i would’ve thought

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If u isulate bare steel panels,like they do for camper vans I think your van will be warmer.the roof of my vw transporter is done and the effect is substansial.Sorry don't have a link,but google Harrisons Trim.Cut to size,clean panel,peel of back and stick.1/4" thick dense foam rubber topped with good thickness heat reflector. Yep Quality stuff.Stop the cold radiating into your van.

Keeping the water moving is an interesting idea and would use less power than an immersion heater. Implications I can think of would be more wear on the pump and battery and also the water will still get very cold so there could be a chance that if you turn it off briefly to start work and the liquid water is hovering at or below zero the whole system could instantly freeze over.

It might be better to insulate the van and just have a small heat source or drain the system at night.