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DrGonzoSnr

55ppm to RO or not to RO?



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DrGonzoSnr

Hi all,

 

I am just getting myself together to start cleaning windows and so have a million and one questions as I am researching a van and equipment.

 

My question right now is what system should I get seeing as though my water out the tap is only in the region of 55ppm. 

 

Do I need to get RO? Is it worth it? Would double DI be more cost effective and am I right in thinking that there would be no waste water unlike with an RO system?

 

I am starting a round from scratch by myself with no experience so I am thinking it will take me a couple of years to build a decent customer base up and so would only be doing it part time to begin with. I have a part time job currently.

 

Many thanks for any advice on this.

 

Matt

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brianbadonde

I would personally go double DI. It will save you lots of water, and also the trade off between more resin and faffing about with membranes and prefilters is worth it IMO.

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Part Timer

At that level it's probably a toss of a coin if you're on a water meter, initially to save the pennies I would start on double DI. If you're not on a meter and when you require a 1000 litres a week I would then look into going with an R/O.

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J and S

Mine's around 90 and double di works for me.....earns me between £6k/£7k per bag.

 

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Ana

Where is the cut off for using DI over RO? My starting water is 230 (last time I checked, few weeks back) and was under the impression that even a double DI would eat through resin much more than is warranted, as opposed to running it through a RO first? 

 

Im on a water meter so waste water and extra expense of said water is important. Can't you just use waste water on my veg patch, direct it there as opposed to a drain? 

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DrGonzoSnr
8 hours ago, J and S said:

Mine's around 90 and double di works for me.....earns me between £6k/£7k per bag.

 

Great. It seems like my research is correct about going with Double DI. Follow up question is is this something I am going to have to DIY? The off the shelf  van systems I have found so far are all RODI systems.

Do I need to look at just getting a delivery unit for the van and then getting the DI vessels separately and connecting them in series between the tap and the delivery unit?

I thought one of the benefits of the van systems I have been looking at is that they seem to be you connect them up and then leave them to fill and they turn off (stop drawing water) automatically. If I'm correct with what I am thinking about just connecting up DI vessels in series to a delivery unit in the van I would then need to go check on it and turn it off manually to stop overfilling?

 

Thank you for the replies thus far

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Iron Giant
10 hours ago, Ana said:

Where is the cut off for using DI over RO? My starting water is 230 (last time I checked, few weeks back) and was under the impression that even a double DI would eat through resin much more than is warranted, as opposed to running it through a RO first? 

 

Im on a water meter so waste water and extra expense of said water is important. Can't you just use waste water on my veg patch, direct it there as opposed to a drain? 


This may answer your question https://windowcleaningforums.co.uk/topic/28404-water-billing-question/ or at least provide some answers 

3 hours ago, DrGonzoSnr said:

Great. It seems like my research is correct about going with Double DI. Follow up question is is this something I am going to have to DIY? The off the shelf  van systems I have found so far are all RODI systems.

Do I need to look at just getting a delivery unit for the van and then getting the DI vessels separately and connecting them in series between the tap and the delivery unit?

I thought one of the benefits of the van systems I have been looking at is that they seem to be you connect them up and then leave them to fill and they turn off (stop drawing water) automatically. If I'm correct with what I am thinking about just connecting up DI vessels in series to a delivery unit in the van I would then need to go check on it and turn it off manually to stop overfilling?

 

Thank you for the replies thus far


Just get a delivery system and either have a storage tank at home or have the DI vessels in the van to purify on demand as you work 

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DrGonzoSnr
46 minutes ago, Iron Giant said:


This may answer your question https://windowcleaningforums.co.uk/topic/28404-water-billing-question/ or at least provide some answers 


Just get a delivery system and either have a storage tank at home or have the DI vessels in the van to purify on demand as you work 

Yes I get this now and found some other threads showing this build. Will definitely goes this way. Looking at the delivery systems you can buy with pump and battery built in I might just try and build it all myself to save some money and also then I would know what's what and how to modify it or repair things as I go along.

 

Cheers

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spruce
12 hours ago, Ana said:

Where is the cut off for using DI over RO? My starting water is 230 (last time I checked, few weeks back) and was under the impression that even a double DI would eat through resin much more than is warranted, as opposed to running it through a RO first? 

 

Im on a water meter so waste water and extra expense of said water is important. Can't you just use waste water on my veg patch, direct it there as opposed to a drain

 

We tried that and it didn't work, but it doesn't mean to say yours wouldn't work.

 

We live in an area where there is a lot a clay and clay doesn't let water through it. (Ask the guys who drill boreholes.) Our back garden is on a gentle slope. We found that the waste water did absorb into the top soil/compost and building sand that we have added over the years to break up the clay and enrich the soil. But once the water met the clay it just travelled along the top of it and came out into our neighbours garden. Being on a slightly lower level than ours meant we flooded his back garden out. He wasn't impressed.

 

In those days it was a 450gpd r/o which produced water very slowly. (28 hours to fill a 1000 liter IBC tank with a ratio of 3 to 1 meant we were dumping 3000 liters of waste water every day. You have got to have a forest to soak that up. Before they built our housing estate in the 60's the lady who lives in the house behind us said that her back garden was a natural pool they used to play around as children and there is an underground stream that runs under our next door neighbours property, under our fence and under her back garden.) Nowadays our r/o is a lot more efficient with a 50/50 waste to pure ratio, but we still couldn't dump 1000 liters in 8.5 hours and loose it into the ground. So unless you can discharge your waste water into a stream at the bottom of your garden you could end up in the same situation we did.

 

The good thing about r/o waste water is that it wouldn't have chlorine in it so is better for your veggie patch than ordinary tap water.

 

As regards where the cutoff point is between di and r/o; there isn't any as its down to each individual window cleaner's circumstances. A big part of the decision is if he is on a water meter or not. I'm not, so even if my water was 60ppm from my tap I would still use an r/o. One of the suppliers once posted that he felt 100 ppm was the maximum before going r/o. If I was on a water meter then I would probably go double di. It could be that the only source of water a cleaner has is from a rented standpipe in the street. In that case he might have to consider filling his tank directly with unpurified water and double di vessels after the pump to purify that water as he is cleaning. In recent times our tap water varies from 79mm to 150ppm depending on where the water is being drawn from. There was a local lad who was using a standpipe for his water. Come to think of it, I haven't seen him around for a few years now.

There will be a maximum tds where cleaning windows using di purified water isn't economical to do. If you were spending £500 a month on resin and earning £1000 from it, then you are wasting your time cleaning windows imho.

 

Edited by spruce

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Steam
On 01/02/2019 at 08:16, spruce said:

 

We tried that and it didn't work, but it doesn't mean to say yours wouldn't work.

 

We live in an area where there is a lot a clay and clay doesn't let water through it. (Ask the guys who drill boreholes.) Our back garden is on a gentle slope. We found that the waste water did absorb into the top soil/compost and building sand that we have added over the years to break up the clay and enrich the soil. But once the water met the clay it just travelled along the top of it and came out into our neighbours garden. Being on a slightly lower level than ours meant we flooded his back garden out. He wasn't impressed.

 

In those days it was a 450gpd r/o which produced water very slowly. (28 hours to fill a 1000 liter IBC tank with a ratio of 3 to 1 meant we were dumping 3000 liters of waste water every day. You have got to have a forest to soak that up. Before they built our housing estate in the 60's the lady who lives in the house behind us said that her back garden was a natural pool they used to play around as children and there is an underground stream that runs under our next door neighbours property, under our fence and under her back garden.) Nowadays our r/o is a lot more efficient with a 50/50 waste to pure ratio, but we still couldn't dump 1000 liters in 8.5 hours and loose it into the ground. So unless you can discharge your waste water into a stream at the bottom of your garden you could end up in the same situation we did.

 

The good thing about r/o waste water is that it wouldn't have chlorine in it so is better for your veggie patch than ordinary tap water.

 

As regards where the cutoff point is between di and r/o; there isn't any as its down to each individual window cleaner's circumstances. A big part of the decision is if he is on a water meter or not. I'm not, so even if my water was 60ppm from my tap I would still use an r/o. One of the suppliers once posted that he felt 100 ppm was the maximum before going r/o. If I was on a water meter then I would probably go double di. It could be that the only source of water a cleaner has is from a rented standpipe in the street. In that case he might have to consider filling his tank directly with unpurified water and double di vessels after the pump to purify that water as he is cleaning. In recent times our tap water varies from 79mm to 150ppm depending on where the water is being drawn from. There was a local lad who was using a standpipe for his water. Come to think of it, I haven't seen him around for a few years now.

There will be a maximum tds where cleaning windows using di purified water isn't economical to do. If you were spending £500 a month on resin and earning £1000 from it, then you are wasting your time cleaning windows imho.

 

Being a newbie to all this myself too and currently looking at what system to go for my question is , I'm in a hard Water area so am I right in thinking I can only have the ro system ? But I'm also on a meter so would I just be better filling up at my local spotless water site ? As it seems if I'm purifying my own I'm also chucking money down the drain literally . So by just putting a simple tank and pump in the van I'm saving a couple of grand .

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Part Timer
50 minutes ago, Steam said:

Being a newbie to all this myself too and currently looking at what system to go for my question is , I'm in a hard Water area so am I right in thinking I can only have the ro system ? But I'm also on a meter so would I just be better filling up at my local spotless water site ? As it seems if I'm purifying my own I'm also chucking money down the drain literally . So by just putting a simple tank and pump in the van I'm saving a couple of grand .

Probably, initially, no difference in double DI and buying in. In the long run, especially when you're using 1000 litres plus, then a R/O is by far and away cheaper 

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spruce
19 hours ago, Steam said:

Being a newbie to all this myself too and currently looking at what system to go for my question is , I'm in a hard Water area so am I right in thinking I can only have the ro system ? But I'm also on a meter so would I just be better filling up at my local spotless water site ? As it seems if I'm purifying my own I'm also chucking money down the drain literally . So by just putting a simple tank and pump in the van I'm saving a couple of grand .

 

Remember Spotless have a system to pay for, a system to maintain, water and electricity to pay for, a site to rent/lease and they are also throwing waste water away. They need to turn a profit which each purchaser of water is contributing to.

They are entitled to do that for providing a service. It up to you to decide if that charge is acceptable or not. The other factor is convenience. Is a Spotless fill point local and how much hassle is involved in getting it - for example, is the site open 24 hours?

 

As @Part Timer says, it all depends on how much water you use and how much your water authority charges for 1000 liters of water.

 

I don't know what the tds of your water is in Crewe but you could get a rough idea of what your water would cost you to purify yourself. Most r/o's sold these days have the facility to adjust the amount of waste water going to your drain. If you assume a maximum waste of 2 liters for each 1 liter of pure you produce (could be less), then to produce 1000 liters of pure you would need to calculate the cost of 3000 liters of water. Northumbrian Water charges 124.68p for one cubic meter of water. A cubic meter of water is 1000 liters. That's 1.2468 per 1000 liters or £3.75 for 1000 liters of pure we produced (including waste.) I have excluded sewerage charges in this calculation.

 

Would I buy pure in from Spotless? Yes, if I had to. But I have to appreciate that if I purchased 1000 liters of water from Spotless I would be paying £36 including VAT where my water cost is £3.75. If I had a job 300 miles away from base then I would gladly buy all the water in I needed to complete that job as @Part Timer would like to do.

 

Lets take that further. At one time we were using 12500 liters of pure a month with 3 cleaners drawing water. Had we been purchasing water from Spotless our water bill per month would have been £450 including VAT. With us producing our own water using the same example we would have used 37500 liters of water per month. That would have cost us £47 (no VAT as we are domestic water users.) That's saved us £403 per month over buying it in.

 

My 4040 cost me just over £1000 six years ago. I calculate my r/o would have been paid for after 3 months.

 

Now I could go further and say that actually our water usage is less than that when we produce pure. We live in a soft to moderate water hardness area and have my r/o set at approx 50% waste to 50% pure. Producing 1000 liters users 2000 liters of tap water. In a month we still use 12500 lites but we would draw 25000 liters of tap water. My cost would then be £31.20 (rounded up to £32) per month saving me £418 over buying it in.

 

If I was only using a minimal amount of water, would I buy an r/o when there is a Spotless fill point or another supplier of pure water nearby? Probably not as I would use that source until buying an r/o justified itself.

 

Edited by spruce

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Pjj

Double Di might work ok but you won’t get the same finish on the glass .as an example there is another window cleaner near me who uses double Di , I constantly get people phoning me up whose windows he cleans saying that they arnt happy with what he’s doing , the windows and frames are ok but the glass is dull no shine on it . I have then cleaned a couple of windows using my system I have ro and the difference to the finish is amazing the frames are whiter and the glass has a really good shine on it . This other guy isn’t doing a bad job and Ime doing a better job , it’s down to the equipment and technique used , you will never get as good results with Di as ro , it all depends what you as a cleaner want do spend ,and weather the customer is going to be happy with the results some will some won’t . We have some commercial work that insist that an ro system is used .

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dazmond
1 hour ago, Pjj said:

Double Di might work ok but you won’t get the same finish on the glass .as an example there is another window cleaner near me who uses double Di , I constantly get people phoning me up whose windows he cleans saying that they arnt happy with what he’s doing , the windows and frames are ok but the glass is dull no shine on it . I have then cleaned a couple of windows using my system I have ro and the difference to the finish is amazing the frames are whiter and the glass has a really good shine on it . This other guy isn’t doing a bad job and Ime doing a better job , it’s down to the equipment and technique used , you will never get as good results with Di as ro , it all depends what you as a cleaner want do spend ,and weather the customer is going to be happy with the results some will some won’t . We have some commercial work that insist that an ro system is used .

are you for real?what absolute rubbish!DI purified water is no different to RO purified water......if your getting phone calls because he s not doing a good job its because he s a **** window cleaner!👍

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♠Winp®oClean♠
1 hour ago, Pjj said:

Double Di might work ok but you won’t get the same finish on the glass .as an example there is another window cleaner near me who uses double Di , I constantly get people phoning me up whose windows he cleans saying that they arnt happy with what he’s doing , the windows and frames are ok but the glass is dull no shine on it . I have then cleaned a couple of windows using my system I have ro and the difference to the finish is amazing the frames are whiter and the glass has a really good shine on it . This other guy isn’t doing a bad job and Ime doing a better job , it’s down to the equipment and technique used , you will never get as good results with Di as ro , it all depends what you as a cleaner want do spend ,and weather the customer is going to be happy with the results some will some won’t . We have some commercial work that insist that an ro system is used .

 

Ha Harr.... what absolute nonsense!! Geeeeze, this is "supposed" to be a place for advice, where the heck do you get that utter rubbish from?

 

To the OP- double DI on the van is the way to go for you. My input is 90/100ppm and it's worked fine for me for over 16 years.

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Tuffers

I have to agree with the two above replies. Where did you get this fact that DI gives a **** finish Pjj? Pure is pure, DI or through an RO with DI polishing the water. Some on the other forum don't even use a DI after the RO. They're proper men on there though.

 

At OP, how come your water is only 055 PPM out of your tap? I thought down south especially Dorset the water was extremely hard?

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Cleanteam South west

In Torbay its coming out the tap at 62-67ish, only use Di but i know where i used to live Honiton in Devon its hard there.... was told  the water comes from wales 

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marc674

Double di can only give a bad finish if the resin is not changed when worn out or poor workmanship by the operator.  I will  never forget a conversation I had with another windy a few years back who was double di saying he would only   change the resin when the tds gets to around 25 as the resin is so expensive....... Strange he don't seem to be cleaning windows anymore ! 

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wee man
3 hours ago, Pjj said:

Double Di might work ok but you won’t get the same finish on the glass .as an example there is another window cleaner near me who uses double Di , I constantly get people phoning me up whose windows he cleans saying that they arnt happy with what he’s doing , the windows and frames are ok but the glass is dull no shine on it . I have then cleaned a couple of windows using my system I have ro and the difference to the finish is amazing the frames are whiter and the glass has a really good shine on it . This other guy isn’t doing a bad job and Ime doing a better job , it’s down to the equipment and technique used , you will never get as good results with Di as ro , it all depends what you as a cleaner want do spend ,and weather the customer is going to be happy with the results some will some won’t . We have some commercial work that insist that an ro system is used .

I actually agree with this and I'm double di.  With a ro there is definitely a shine to the windows.  I would love one of the suppliers to come on and let us know what they say. 

I also seen on fb someone saying the resin 115 is for use with the ro and 151 is for di only. ( really don't know if that's bull**** or not )

Edited by wee man
Added more

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♠Winp®oClean♠

What do you guys think RO water is polished off with? Cotton wool?

000ppm water is just that, 000ppm- regardless of the method used to get it to that state. I'm struggling with the intellect on here today! 

 

RO water gives more shine.. FFS I've heard it all now!

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Pjj
3 hours ago, ♠Winp®oClean♠ said:

 

Ha Harr.... what absolute nonsense!! Geeeeze, this is "supposed" to be a place for advice, where the heck do you get that utter rubbish from?

 

To the OP- double DI on the van is the way to go for you. My input is 90/100ppm and it's worked fine for me for over 16 years.

 

 

Double di will not put a shine on the glass or it doesn’t on all the properties that a number of window cleaners around hear do , we get lots of calls from people not happy with there cleaners results , I have been and looked at them the windows are reasonably good he’s not doing a bad job they are clean ish but the frames and glass are dull , when we do a couple of windows for them as a demo they shine , my tds is around 90 so I could go the Di route but I didn’t beacause I know you won’t get the type of results I want to give my customers , ones who have only ever used double Di have no idear what a difference ro makes , I used cold wfp for the first 7 years thinking hot was a waist of time and money , now having had hot for the past 4 years I can see how foolish I was thinking hot wasn’t needed the difference in the clean is huge ,but until you have it you don’t realise 

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Pjj
4 hours ago, dazmond said:

are you for real?what absolute rubbish!DI purified water is no different to RO purified water......if your getting phone calls because he s not doing a good job its because he s a **** window cleaner!👍

 

 

He isn’t doing a bad job , they are clean ish but ro does a much better job , you probebly think your golf  gtd is fast and to you it is put it up against a Ferrari and it’s a snail , it’s exactly the same with Di and ro ,ro will always give a better finish .

again petrol is a good example of this 95 octain the car will run ok but use 97 or fuel addertives like methanol etc it will run much faster 

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Pjj
1 hour ago, ♠Winp®oClean♠ said:

What do you guys think RO water is polished off with? Cotton wool?

000ppm water is just that, 000ppm- regardless of the method used to get it to that state. I'm struggling with the intellect on here today! 

 

RO water gives more shine.. FFS I've heard it all now!

 

 

Your reply’s don’t suprise me at all as you were advocating using water to  clean windows with a tds of 26 the other day , as I said then Ime glad you don’t clean my windows 

3 hours ago, Tuffers said:

I have to agree with the two above replies. Where did you get this fact that DI gives a **** finish Pjj? Pure is pure, DI or through an RO with DI polishing the water. Some on the other forum don't even use a DI after the RO. They're proper men on there though.

 

At OP, how come your water is only 055 PPM out of your tap? I thought down south especially Dorset the water was extremely hard?

 

 

Ime not saying it gives a bad finish Ime just saying that ro with Di puts a shine on the glass and frames that Di doesn’t , I remember someone explaining why it’s like that years ago but cannot remember the explanation 

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Tuffers
30 minutes ago, Pjj said:

 

 

Double di will not put a shine on the glass or it doesn’t on all the properties that a number of window cleaners around hear do , we get lots of calls from people not happy with there cleaners results , I have been and looked at them the windows are reasonably good he’s not doing a bad job they are clean ish but the frames and glass are dull , when we do a couple of windows for them as a demo they shine , my tds is around 90 so I could go the Di route but I didn’t beacause I know you won’t get the type of results I want to give my customers , ones who have only ever used double Di have no idear what a difference ro makes , I used cold wfp for the first 7 years thinking hot was a waist of time and money , now having had hot for the past 4 years I can see how foolish I was thinking hot wasn’t needed the difference in the clean is huge ,but until you have it you don’t realise 

 

What huge difference to the clean does hot water make apart from a quicker clean on a minging first clean? A clean pane of glass is a clean pane of glass. Is a window that's been cleaned trad not clean? I think we can over do this cleaning lark tbh. At the end of the day we clean the muck off the window and as H MAN would say..'that's about it."

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RWCleaning

We’re not window pane dirt eradication engineers for nothing ! 

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