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P4dstar

Is my leisure battery broken?



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P4dstar

I have a Bosch 105AH battery, nearly 2 years old. Never had a split charge but i'm fitting one next week. I run a 100psi Shurflo that has a spring pump controller connected. If I press enter on the controller it gives me a battery reading. I've never really trusted it as I can turn the pump off and back on with a different reading.

 

Halfway through today I started to see a drop in pressure. Managed to struggle through one job with it saying BAT on the screen. I unplugged the terminals and reconnected them. At the next job it gave me virtually nothing through and the screen said 11.2 at one point and as low as 10.3 a couple of minutes later. I stopped and finished with the backpack. I assumed I had not charged it last night, just plugged it in and not turned it on (It was 3am when I remembered)

 

Got home and charged it and it reckons its fully charged in 3 hours on a slow charge. Plugged it into the van and the controller is reading 13.0 so I assume that's correct. Is there any coming back from that? The only other thing I can see is a loose wire on the connection which i'm about to change but I can't really afford to p1ss around tomorrow, got a massive office block on that's gonna take me 2 days.

Edited by P4dstar

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P4dstar

Sorry second question... Euro car parts sell a ''sealed marine leisure battery'' is this the same as a normal leisure battery?

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spruce

My advise to you is to go and buy a replacement battery first thing tomorrow morning and do your job @P4dstar. If you have a multimeter then take it with you so you can check that the battery you are buying is reasonably fully charged. The magic eye some batteries have is an indicator but not that accurate. You will have to thoroughly charge that battery over night tomorrow night.

 

I'm 99.9% sure that the battery is the issue. If it isn't then it will be shortly. If its fully charged after 3 hours then its lost capacity.

 

Lets talk about battery charging. Before you check the charge of your battery you need to let the battery stand idle for 4 hours. You do this to let the battery's voltage stabilize. When my leisure battery is being charged by the vans alternator it reads between 14.2 and 14.5 volts. When I switch the engine off that voltage starts to drop quickly at first and then more slowly. But after about 4 hours it will settle on 12.7 /12.8 volts. That's fully charged.

 

Now if I run a couple of pumps for a bit the voltage under load could drop to 12.5 volts. When the load is switched off the voltage will creep back up. It will probably settle at 12.7 volts after 4 hours.

Our Spring and Varistream controllers are designed to cut power drawn from the battery at around 10.3/10.4 volts under load. Under load that the lowest voltage to let a battery drop to before you start to cause serious, permanent damage to the battery. At 10.3 volts that battery is classed as flat. But if you let that same battery rest for 4 hours it will probably recover to 12+ volts. It will die though after you put a load onto it.

 

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P4dstar
8 minutes ago, spruce said:

I'm 99.9% sure that the battery is the issue. If it isn't then it will be shortly. If its fully charged after 3 hours then its lost capacity.

That was the final test for me really, just wanted to reassure myself. Could have done without any more expenses this month had the accountant to pay, website renewal, daughters birthday.... 🎻🎻🎻

 

I've ordered a lion 105AH one. Oddly enough Euro car parts is right across the road from the place i'm working tomorrow. I have a multi meter but unfortunately I ain't got a clue how to use it 🤷‍♂️🤦‍♂️

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spruce
2 minutes ago, P4dstar said:

Sorry second question... Euro car parts sell a ''sealed marine leisure battery'' is this the same as a normal leisure battery?

 

Yes. Sealed leisure battery are becoming more popular these days. They come with a bigger reservior of water and some have some magic technology that changes gas bubbles back to water.

My current leisure battery is 4 years old and has provision to top up the water levels. It hasn't need to be topped up with water since its been put into service.

 

When buying a leisure battery try to find out what class they catagorize it as. You really need to be looking at Class A or B.

https://www.thencc.org.uk/our_schemes/ncc_verified_leisure_battery_scheme.aspx

 

Most of us are demanding more output power than we did initially, diesel heaters, multiple pumps and electric hose reels. I would also be looking at a traction type battery that can be used as both a leisure battery and starter battery. These combination batteries have a CCA (cold cranking amps) value. Numax make a combination battery that performs very well.

These class catagories are centered around the caravan leisure industry. Most caravan owners fit motor movers these days and they have heavy current demands when in operation. I believe these batteries are more suited for window cleaning applications.

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spruce
1 minute ago, P4dstar said:

That was the final test for me really, just wanted to reassure myself. Could have done without any more expenses this month had the accountant to pay, website renewal, daughters birthday.... 🎻🎻🎻

 

I've ordered a lion 105AH one. Oddly enough Euro car parts is right across the road from the place i'm working tomorrow. I have a multi meter but unfortunately I ain't got a clue how to use it 🤷‍♂️🤦‍♂️

 

I'm sorry but a few of us haven't had a good experience with Lion batteries. In fact our local Motor Factors stopped supplying them. My van battery was replaced with one. It failed within the guarantee period and they refused a claim. They also refused a claim on all the batteries they sent back under claim.

One of the local lads fitted a 105 amp Lion and it lasted him 6 months. 2 years was the average a battery lasted him.

They aren't all bad as another one had his last 3 years.

But personally, I wouldn't touch one.

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P4dstar
1 minute ago, spruce said:

 

I'm sorry but a few of us haven't had a good experience with Lion batteries. In fact our local Motor Factors stopped supplying them. My van battery was replaced with one. It failed within the guarantee period and they refused a claim. They also refused a claim on all the batteries they sent back under claim.

One of the local lads fitted a 105 amp Lion and it lasted him 6 months. 2 years was the average a battery lasted him.

They aren't all bad as another one had his last 3 years.

But personally, I wouldn't touch one.

I'm just looking down the list of A & B class. It's only click and collect so I can cancel the order anyway. Thankfully I only run a pump as it appears there are no class A or B in stock for collection. The jobs worth £600 so if I end up with a **** one i'll just have to bite the bullet I think.

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P4dstar

Sussed it.... This is a class B;

 

https://www.eurocarparts.com/ecp/p/car-parts/car-electrics-and-car-lighting/electrical/car-battery/?444776790&1&cc5_990

 

Used the discount code BATT50 and it will be £110 and best of all it's ready for collection tomorrow. Thanks for your help @spruce

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spruce
4 minutes ago, P4dstar said:

Sussed it.... This is a class B;

 

https://www.eurocarparts.com/ecp/p/car-parts/car-electrics-and-car-lighting/electrical/car-battery/?444776790&1&cc5_990

 

Used the discount code BATT50 and it will be £110 and best of all it's ready for collection tomorrow. Thanks for your help @spruce

 

I would be more than happy with that @P4dstar

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P4dstar

I've also just noticed that they provide a 2 year warranty on my other one so i'll ask how I put a claim in while i'm there 👍

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spruce
3 minutes ago, P4dstar said:

I've also just noticed that they provide a 2 year warranty on my other one so i'll ask how I put a claim in while i'm there 👍

 

Its got to be worth a try. Judging by our past experience, "you've probably got more chance of falling pregnant by wind pollination" but miracles can happen, even in our day. 😂

Edited by spruce

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P4dstar
1 minute ago, spruce said:

 

Its got to be worth a try. Judging by our past experience, "you've probably got more chance of falling pregnant by wind pollination" but miracles can happen, even in our day. 😂

I'll keep you posted on this one. I have the number of the area manager for Euro from a complaint I made last year. I wanted an exchange as they sent the wrong item but only had the email receipt and not the paper one. Some smug little sales rep stood across the counter grinning like a cheshire cat while telling me he couldn't help. The area manager told me to call him if I ever needed anything, might make him regret that 😂😂

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ks789

Id bought a new one a couple of weeks ago, Its Yuasa, 80 amp, which is enough ampage for me. It says its category c. Id read loads on here about batteries, like that not to buy lion but I dont recall seeing that cat A or B would be best. As it was 78 quid I presumed it wasnt a cheap rubbish one, and yuasa seemed to have a goodish write up, so hopefully will be fine. 

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spruce
42 minutes ago, ks789 said:

Id bought a new one a couple of weeks ago, Its Yuasa, 80 amp, which is enough ampage for me. It says its category c. Id read loads on here about batteries, like that not to buy lion but I dont recall seeing that cat A or B would be best. As it was 78 quid I presumed it wasnt a cheap rubbish one, and yuasa seemed to have a goodish write up, so hopefully will be fine. 

 

The NCC rating helps us to draw useful conclusions. Before these ratings made by an independant testers became available we had little info to go on when making a battery choice which our business depends on.  We all know that we can't rely on sales literature by the manufacturer to make informed decisions. I guess it would be similar to NCAP safety ratings. Without these tests many more would have bought Rover Metros thinking it was a nice small economical car.

Would you buy a Fiat Panda knowing the lastest zero score on its NCAP safety test? Hardly. I wouldn't want one even if it was given to me.

 

https://www.euroncap.com/en/ratings-rewards/latest-safety-ratings/#?selectedMake=0&selectedMakeName=Select a make&selectedModel=0&selectedStar=&includeFullSafetyPackage=true&includeStandardSafetyPackage=true&selectedModelName=All&selectedProtocols=34803,30636&selectedClasses=1202,1199,1201,1196,1205,1203,1198,1179,1197,1204,1180,34736&allClasses=true&allProtocols=false&allDriverAssistanceTechnologies=false&selectedDriverAssistanceTechnologies=&thirdRowFitment=false

 

Yuasa make batteries for Halfords and last time I was in Halfords they had leisure batteries clearly catagorised into A, B & C. Battery longevity (number of charging cycles) largely depends on how its looked after. A battery consistently recharged when discharged by 20% will last much longer than one recharged when 50% discharged. The same battery will fair less well if is discharged by 80% before being recharged. Longevity also is consistent with the amount of current drawn at any one time. Drawing minimal current will prolong the battery's life over one which has to supply a higher draw. Using a standard leisure battery to start a vehicle is a sure way to 'kill' it unless it is a combination leisure and starter battery.

 

 

Edited by spruce

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Master Jedi Alejandro

Funnily enough, just had my Halfords battery changed under warranty two days ago. It came with two years and the guy claimed I was ‘incorrectly’ using it but changed it anyway. 

 

I dont have a split relay set up so have to bring the battery in to charge. I recon this has caused issues with me discharging it more than I should. 

 

Had the the same symptoms as you, @P4dstar.. Part way through jobs pressure would drop and the flow controller would be dim. Would have to turn it off and remove connections. 

 

While in Halfords the salesmen mentioned deep cycle batteries. He said they don’t sell them but may be better suited, as they are designed to be heavily drawn and then charged back up. 

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scottish cleaning service

Can you not buy a lithium ion battery because they have no memory and can be charged at any time. My Festool battery drill is lithium ion and I have charged it over a thousand times with no problems. May be expensive though.

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ks789
5 hours ago, spruce said:

 

The NCC rating helps us to draw useful conclusions. Before these ratings made by an independant testers became available we had little info to go on when making a battery choice which our business depends on.  We all know that we can't rely on sales literature by the manufacturer to make informed decisions. I guess it would be similar to NCAP safety ratings. Without these tests many more would have bought Rover Metros thinking it was a nice small economical car.

Would you buy a Fiat Panda knowing the lastest zero score on its NCAP safety test? Hardly. I wouldn't want one even if it was given to me.

 

https://www.euroncap.com/en/ratings-rewards/latest-safety-ratings/#?selectedMake=0&selectedMakeName=Select a make&selectedModel=0&selectedStar=&includeFullSafetyPackage=true&includeStandardSafetyPackage=true&selectedModelName=All&selectedProtocols=34803,30636&selectedClasses=1202,1199,1201,1196,1205,1203,1198,1179,1197,1204,1180,34736&allClasses=true&allProtocols=false&allDriverAssistanceTechnologies=false&selectedDriverAssistanceTechnologies=&thirdRowFitment=false

 

Yuasa make batteries for Halfords and last time I was in Halfords they had leisure batteries clearly catagorised into A, B & C. Battery longevity (number of charging cycles) largely depends on how its looked after. A battery consistently recharged when discharged by 20% will last much longer than one recharged when 50% discharged. The same battery will fair less well if is discharged by 80% before being recharged. Longevity also is consistent with the amount of current drawn at any one time. Drawing minimal current will prolong the battery's life over one which has to supply a higher draw. Using a standard leisure battery to start a vehicle is a sure way to 'kill' it unless it is a combination leisure and starter battery.

 

 

Yes with this new battery from the get go its gonna religiously be recharged before it reaches, say 12.55 would you say? Its only for single operator and nothing else running off it. Well, use a controller and one shot which helps. 

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spruce
4 hours ago, scottish cleaning service said:

Can you not buy a lithium ion battery because they have no memory and can be charged at any time. My Festool battery drill is lithium ion and I have charged it over a thousand times with no problems. May be expensive though.

 

This is the problem. The other problem is freezing temps. If the area the lithium battery is stored in gets below freezing it can't be recharged until it warms up. It can however, continue to deliver power to any equipment.

I'm not too sure how we would manage with 2 degrees in the back of the van.

The other issue the manufacturers turn down is a drop off in capacity.

 

https://batteryuniversity.com/learn/archive/is_lithium_ion_the_ideal_battery

 

Aging is a concern with most lithium-ion batteries and many manufacturers remain silent about this issue. Some capacity deterioration is noticeable after one year, whether the battery is in use or not. The battery frequently fails after two or three years. It should be noted that other chemistries also have age-related degenerative effects. This is especially true for nickel-metal-hydride if exposed to high ambient temperatures. At the same time, lithium-ion packs are known to have served for five years in some applications. 

 

My current leisure battery is 4 years old and I paid £85 for it. Why should I pay 9 times that for an equivalent battery that won't last 9 times as long. So for us windies, I'm not sure that lithium is the answer just yet.

 

http://vi.raptor.ebaydesc.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItemDescV4&item=111523898631&category=41981&pm=1&ds=0&t=1505750475000&ver=0

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scottish cleaning service

That's maybe why my battery wasn't charging in the morning, too cold. I couldn't work it out so thanks Sprucie boy. :1f44d:

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spruce
1 hour ago, scottish cleaning service said:

That's maybe why my battery wasn't charging in the morning, too cold. I couldn't work it out so thanks Sprucie boy. :1f44d:

One of the narrow boater live aboards has changed his lead acid leisure batteries for lithium ion ones. He had to rehouse them inside his boat where it is warm. Charging is also rather complex.

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P4dstar

An update on this....

 

Just to make 100% sure yesterday I changed the terminal with the loose wire. It had about 3 strings of wire left connecting it to the live terminal so I figured it might be the issue. It wasn't the issue. I managed the 5 domestic customers before I moved to the office block. When I got there it was reading 11.2 or something, lasted about an hour. 

 

The new marine battery I got is really heavy, has 2 handles which you really need to carry the thing. Plugged it in and it lasted all afternoon and bench charged it last night. While collecting it I asked about the warranty on the other one. They told me to bring it in and they would process the claim for me. Now @spruce make sure you're sat down for this next bit... I walked in there this evening with the old battery and both the original invoice and the new invoice. The original invoice was for £94 and the new one was £110. They have just given me a warranty refund of £110 I spent yesterday as its not my fault they don't have stock of the old one.

 

In conclusion I will be purchasing all batteries from Euro Car Parts from now on!!

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spruce
1 hour ago, P4dstar said:

An update on this....

 

Just to make 100% sure yesterday I changed the terminal with the loose wire. It had about 3 strings of wire left connecting it to the live terminal so I figured it might be the issue. It wasn't the issue. I managed the 5 domestic customers before I moved to the office block. When I got there it was reading 11.2 or something, lasted about an hour. 

 

The new marine battery I got is really heavy, has 2 handles which you really need to carry the thing. Plugged it in and it lasted all afternoon and bench charged it last night. While collecting it I asked about the warranty on the other one. They told me to bring it in and they would process the claim for me. Now @spruce make sure you're sat down for this next bit... I walked in there this evening with the old battery and both the original invoice and the new invoice. The original invoice was for £94 and the new one was £110. They have just given me a warranty refund of £110 I spent yesterday as its not my fault they don't have stock of the old one.

 

In conclusion I will be purchasing all batteries from Euro Car Parts from now on!!

 

So miracles do happen.😂  I wonder if Europarts will get the warranty refund from Lion?

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adamangler

Part of the reason I stopped using controllers was because of them shutting the battery off when it gets low. I know it's to save the battery but when you have work to do it's annoying I'd rather kill the battery.

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spruce
1 minute ago, adamangler said:

Part of the reason I stopped using controllers was because of them shutting the battery off when it gets low. I know it's to save the battery but when you have work to do it's annoying I'd rather kill the battery.

 

If the battery drops below 10.3v under load there is not much left.

 

Spring have an over ride but this is a safety feature build in other stuff as well, for example, Webasto and Eberspacher diesel heaters.

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adamangler
3 minutes ago, spruce said:

 

If the battery drops below 10.3v under load there is not much left.

 

Spring have an over ride but this is a safety feature build in other stuff as well, for example, Webasto and Eberspacher diesel heaters.

 

 

Yeh, what was happening i think was actually the wiring was corroded so it got less voltage to the controller making one shut off before the other...it took me a while to figure this out.

 

That being said i prefer working without a controller...the only setting I ever use is full wack anyway.

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