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Mike Krall

Making pure water on the fly?

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Mike Krall

Hi everyone,

 

My current system is a dealer bought sediment-carbon filter/DI/DI/RO setup with monstrous 4.5x45" tubes and it's about as portable as a baby elephant. I don't use a holding tank and don't really want to.

 

So I want to build a new system as the snow is starting to melt here :) and I was wondering if you guys could help me determine the RO membrane that I'd need to produce enough GPM (oh bad word) to wash windows. I was looking at the Axeon HF5-4021 unit which is rated at 1000 GPD, which according to my google assisted math is roughly .70 GPM. From reading these fine forums I understand that I need about .50 GPM to effectively wash windows through my WFP. I'm going to add a new 4x21" DI tank and another sediment-carbon filter.

 

My existing pump is a Shurflo 8030 150PSI/1.4GPM/

 

Any advice for a yankee would be appreciated! 

 

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Pjj
1 hour ago, Mike Krall said:

Hi everyone,

 

My current system is a dealer bought sediment-carbon filter/DI/DI/RO setup with monstrous 4.5x45" tubes and it's about as portable as a baby elephant. I don't use a holding tank and don't really want to.

 

So I want to build a new system as the snow is starting to melt here 🙂 and I was wondering if you guys could help me determine the RO membrane that I'd need to produce enough GPM (oh bad word) to wash windows. I was looking at the Axeon HF5-4021 unit which is rated at 1000 GPD, which according to my google assisted math is roughly .70 GPM. From reading these fine forums I understand that I need about .50 GPM to effectively wash windows through my WFP. I'm going to add a new 4x21" DI tank and another sediment-carbon filter.

 

My existing pump is a Shurflo 8030 150PSI/1.4GPM/

 

Any advice for a yankee would be appreciated! 

 

 

 

@spruce is the man to explain this best hopefully he will see this and be able to help you 

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ks789

Hi bud

 

I have the 40 21 Ro, i bought mine from daqua who are based over here in the uk. At my house it takes about 2 hours to fill a 250 litre water butt. ive just read on this converter that equals 66 us gallons. Mind you, your water pressure would need to be a certain minimum, say 50 psi, to get this, otherwise you would need a booster pump to get the Ro to perform better. With the booster pump, gets up to over 100 psi. Im not long into this game myself, but someone else may be along in a while who knows more,

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Mike Krall
1 hour ago, Pjj said:

 

 

@spruce is the man to explain this best hopefully he will see this and be able to help you 

 

Thanks Pjj

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Mike Krall
1 hour ago, ks789 said:

Hi bud

 

I have the 40 21 Ro, i bought mine from daqua who are based over here in the uk. At my house it takes about 2 hours to fill a 250 litre water butt. ive just read on this converter that equals 66 us gallons. Mind you, your water pressure would need to be a certain minimum, say 50 psi, to get this, otherwise you would need a booster pump to get the Ro to perform better. With the booster pump, gets up to over 100 psi. Im not long into this game myself, but someone else may be along in a while who knows more,

 

I see daqua referenced here a lot and 40 21 or 40 40 and I haven't quite figured that out yet :) are those numbers the height of the membrane? 

 

Most of the taps here are around 50-80 PSI, but I could run push/pull pump if needed. My battery seems to last a while and adding a 2nd isn't a big deal. Yeah I tried running a 40 gallon tank and maybe I'm just not used to it, but it's cumbersome. We do more than just windows so there's only so much room in the van. They won't let us strap them to the roofs yet. 

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spruce
Posted (edited)
10 hours ago, Mike Krall said:

 

I see daqua referenced here a lot and 40 21 or 40 40 and I haven't quite figured that out yet 🙂 are those numbers the height of the membrane? 

 

Most of the taps here are around 50-80 PSI, but I could run push/pull pump if needed. My battery seems to last a while and adding a 2nd isn't a big deal. Yeah I tried running a 40 gallon tank and maybe I'm just not used to it, but it's cumbersome. We do more than just windows so there's only so much room in the van. They won't let us strap them to the roofs yet. 

 

Hi @Mike Krall

Mike,

The problem is that you guys across the 'pond' work differently to us in the UK and your customers think differently too. So we can only advise on what we see and experience here in the UK.

 

Theorectically, a 4040 (not a 4021 as its too small) should be able to supply a brush head with 2lpm of pure with the right tweaking. There are a couple of YouTube videos that show a 4040 connected up directly to customer's outside faucets and cleaning windows with the pure produced by the r/o and filtered through a di vessel. American customers are fully aware of how an r/o works as the old Merlins were a common American kitchen accessory. In the UK cleaning residential windows from a metered customer's water supply using an r/o on site would create a major 'train smash' when they see the waste water being either sent to a nearby drain or down the road.

 

Forget what the book says about what an r/o membrane produces as they spec these under perfect conditions - water temperature, pressure and dissolved solids composition. In the real world we might get a quarter or third of what they quote. The colder the water from your faucet the slower the r/o will produce water.

 

An r/o membrane is quoted as producing x gallons per day (GPD). A day is a 24 hour period and gallons are US not imperial (not a problem for you.)

 

My 4040 at 50psi and a pure to waste ratio of 1 to 1 produces about 2lpm of pure and 2lpm of waste. What you would be doing is using your delivery pump as a booster pump for a portable setup. This is where we run out of experience.

The 12v Shurflo pumps we use for water delivery aren't big enough for use as a booster pump. A 1.4gpm Shurflo pump only delivers that flow rate at a low pressure. The higher the pressure required the lower the flow rate. A bigger 12v motor would consume a lot of power. Most sea cruisers (Yachts) have onboard r/o systems for desalinating sea water for drinking. There are 12v pumps available but as their membranes require pressures of around 500psi, the most common are 220v power supplied by their onboard generator.

 

Gardiner's do a portable system. I can't see what motor voltage they use as a booster. I expect it would be 220v for UK power but you guys seem to favour 110v. Again, the problem is an electrical connection.

 

https://gardinerpolesystems.co.uk/all-products/pure-water-systems/portable-systems/portable-ro-processing/osmobil-portable-water-processing-unit.html

 

But again, we understand from a friend who lived in New Jersey for a good number of years that they employed a window cleaner twice a year who cleaned both the inside and outside windows and screens. If this is still the case, then using a customers electric would be possible at the same time.

 

 

Again a portable system would need a sediment filter, a carbon block, the booster pump and a di vessel as a complete unit.

 

 

Edited by spruce

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Mike Krall
Posted (edited)
10 hours ago, spruce said:

 

Hi @Mike Krall

Mike,

The problem is that you guys across the 'pond' work differently to us in the UK and your customers think differently too. So we can only advise on what we see and experience here in the UK.

 

Theorectically, a 4040 (not a 4021 as its too small) should be able to supply a brush head with 2lpm of pure with the right tweaking. There are a couple of YouTube videos that show a 4040 connected up directly to customer's outside faucets and cleaning windows with the pure produced by the r/o and filtered through a di vessel. American customers are fully aware of how an r/o works as the old Merlins were a common American kitchen accessory. In the UK cleaning residential windows from a metered customer's water supply using an r/o on site would create a major 'train smash' when they see the waste water being either sent to a nearby drain or down the road.

 

Forget what the book says about what an r/o membrane produces as they spec these under perfect conditions - water temperature, pressure and dissolved solids composition. In the real world we might get a quarter or third of what they quote. The colder the water from your faucet the slower the r/o will produce water.

 

An r/o membrane is quoted as producing x gallons per day (GPD). A day is a 24 hour period and gallons are US not imperial (not a problem for you.)

 

My 4040 at 50psi and a pure to waste ratio of 1 to 1 produces about 2lpm of pure and 2lpm of waste. What you would be doing is using your delivery pump as a booster pump for a portable setup. This is where we run out of experience.

The 12v Shurflo pumps we use for water delivery aren't big enough for use as a booster pump. A 1.4gpm Shurflo pump only delivers that flow rate at a low pressure. The higher the pressure required the lower the flow rate. A bigger 12v motor would consume a lot of power. Most sea cruisers (Yachts) have onboard r/o systems for desalinating sea water for drinking. There are 12v pumps available but as their membranes require pressures of around 500psi, the most common are 220v power supplied by their onboard generator.

 

Gardiner's do a portable system. I can't see what motor voltage they use as a booster. I expect it would be 220v for UK power but you guys seem to favour 110v. Again, the problem is an electrical connection.

 

https://gardinerpolesystems.co.uk/all-products/pure-water-systems/portable-systems/portable-ro-processing/osmobil-portable-water-processing-unit.html

 

But again, we understand from a friend who lived in New Jersey for a good number of years that they employed a window cleaner twice a year who cleaned both the inside and outside windows and screens. If this is still the case, then using a customers electric would be possible at the same time.

 

 

Again a portable system would need a sediment filter, a carbon block, the booster pump and a di vessel as a complete unit.

 

 

 

C'mon now we are only 7 hours away and you lads seeded this colony, it can't be that different ;) Plus I have a Gardiner pole... 

 

I had to look up that Merlin kit. Our water is metered too, but pretty cheap and Americans are ignorant which is bliss so I get your point.

 

Yes we love 110v, 220v is for the laundry room. 

 

So even with the HF5 being low energy 4021 is still not going to produce enough lpm? Would 2 - 4021's work?

 

Thanks for all your help Mr Spruce. We do commercial so tapping into an electrical outlet wouldn't be a problem, but it's another component to the system to deal with. 

 

BTW, I thought portable systems like the IPC Eagle were fairly common. Though I just looked at one and there doesn't seem to be much pressure coming out, looks like it would take all day to clean a window. 

Edited by Mike Krall

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spruce
Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, Mike Krall said:

 

C'mon now we are only 7 hours away and you lads seeded this colony, it can't be that different 😉 Plus I have a Gardiner pole... 

 

I had to look up that Merlin kit. Our water is metered too, but pretty cheap and Americans are ignorant which is bliss so I get your point.

 

Yes we love 110v, 220v is for the laundry room. 

 

So even with the HF5 being low energy 4021 is still not going to produce enough lpm? Would 2 - 4021's work?

 

Thanks for all your help Mr Spruce. We do commercial so tapping into an electrical outlet wouldn't be a problem, but it's another component to the system to deal with. 

 

BTW, I thought portable systems like the IPC Eagle were fairly common. Though I just looked at one and there doesn't seem to be much pressure coming out, looks like it would take all day to clean a window. 

 

A Merlin or a Pentair PRF - RO as it is now known as well produce about the same amount of pure as a 4021 but at a much lower efficiency (rejection rate.) 

 

A 4021 is half the size of a 4040, so yes, 2 of them linked together would work the same as a 4040. A 4021 produces half the amount of pure a 4040 does with the same membrane. However, further down the line you will have to fork out for 2 membranes and a 4021 membrane isn't half the price of a 4040 in the UK. For example, Daqua is asking £217.50 for a 4021 HF5 membrane and £326.00 for a 4040 HF5 membrane.

 

Truthfully, I have never seen a portable r/o system working in our area. It could be different in London but it isn't a topic that comes up on the forum. I'm sure there must be a limited demand for them. But Gardiners don't stock them so an order would be a direct delivery from their supplier to their customer. That tells me that there isn't much call for them. Obviously Gardiners will know the full details - Im just making an assumption based on my view. (Watch Alex will be on here in a flash to correct me and to advise that they sold 200 last year. 😂)

 

Brodex are also advertising a system but I was unable to find out what 12v pump they used.

https://brodexbms.co.uk/product/portapower-trolley-system-12v/

 

You will also notice that Brodex only supply a sediment filter with their systems. They believe not supplying a carbon block is good for business as customers will love to fork out for replacement membranes more often. I wouldn't recommend that company based on my previous experience dealing with them.

 

 

Edited by spruce

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Mike Krall
5 hours ago, spruce said:

 

A Merlin or a Pentair PRF - RO as it is now known as well produce about the same amount of pure as a 4021 but at a much lower efficiency (rejection rate.) 

 

A 4021 is half the size of a 4040, so yes, 2 of them linked together would work the same as a 4040. A 4021 produces half the amount of pure a 4040 does with the same membrane. However, further down the line you will have to fork out for 2 membranes and a 4021 membrane isn't half the price of a 4040 in the UK. For example, Daqua is asking £217.50 for a 4021 HF5 membrane and £326.00 for a 4040 HF5 membrane.

 

Truthfully, I have never seen a portable r/o system working in our area. It could be different in London but it isn't a topic that comes up on the forum. I'm sure there must be a limited demand for them. But Gardiners don't stock them so an order would be a direct delivery from their supplier to their customer. That tells me that there isn't much call for them. Obviously Gardiners will know the full details - Im just making an assumption based on my view. (Watch Alex will be on here in a flash to correct me and to advise that they sold 200 last year. 😂)

 

Brodex are also advertising a system but I was unable to find out what 12v pump they used.

https://brodexbms.co.uk/product/portapower-trolley-system-12v/

 

You will also notice that Brodex only supply a sediment filter with their systems. They believe not supplying a carbon block is good for business as customers will love to fork out for replacement membranes more often. I wouldn't recommend that company based on my previous experience dealing with them.

 

 

 

Ah thanks for the history lesson :)

 

I was just looking toward the 4021 as my current system is similar to a 4040 and there's trouble getting it in the side van door. 

 

I haven't seen a portable system in the wild either. I don't even see anyone using a WFP except for me in my area and windows aren't even our main business. Oh dang no wonder this board is so popular, you have Alex the man himself here :)

 

So curious, what do you consider a good sediment filter? My last system had more or less a household carbon filter ahead of the DI thank.

 

Thanks again for the help ;)   

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spruce

When Alex sold prefilters he sold Spectrum 5 micron sediment filters - our water is sometimes laden with sediment @Mike Krall.

 

For me, the most important filter is the next one along, the carbon block. I have always used Fiberdyne filters (Pentair CFB-Plus) which come in the main prefilter sizes.

 

These filters are also 5 micron. There are some which are 1 micron with double the service life but I can't use them as they block up well before their service life has expired. The carbon block is important as it removes chlorine from the water. Chlorine and membrane material aren't good bed fellows.

 

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doug atkinson

It really depends if you want it for 1 operator or 2 operators. Work out what flow you want at the end then you can work out what R/O system your require.

 

I made this for a company wanting to clean Yacht's and works well for them. It's a 4021 with pre-filter hrosystem.jpg

 

 

The IPC eagle I have seen one of the first ones sold in the UK and it is still going. They have changed the design as the booster was a honda petrol engine. The person who has it runs two poles no problem. It's a very good design.

 

With your PSI that is a very good start as in the UK some can be as low as 20 psi which is a huge problem in performance.

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P4dstar

 

These things supply on demand don't they? Bloody expensive though!!

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Pjj

Ionic systems make a portable filtration system called a Quattro , this is designed to produce water and go straight on the glass 

A16463EF-5F11-4CBD-9C56-85B41FB15CCC.png

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spruce
53 minutes ago, P4dstar said:

 

These things supply on demand don't they? Bloody expensive though!!

 

I do like that digital r/o history on display.

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P4dstar
19 minutes ago, spruce said:

 

I do like that digital r/o history on display.

It's a beautiful piece of kit, think my eyes are bigger than my wallet with this one though.

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Mike Krall
On 16/04/2019 at 08:33, doug atkinson said:

It really depends if you want it for 1 operator or 2 operators. Work out what flow you want at the end then you can work out what R/O system your require.

 

I made this for a company wanting to clean Yacht's and works well for them. It's a 4021 with pre-filter hrosystem.jpg

 

 

The IPC eagle I have seen one of the first ones sold in the UK and it is still going. They have changed the design as the booster was a honda petrol engine. The person who has it runs two poles no problem. It's a very good design.

 

With your PSI that is a very good start as in the UK some can be as low as 20 psi which is a huge problem in performance.

 

Wow I love the simplistic beauty of that, function and form!

 

Only need 1 operator. I've been looking around more here in the US and see a lot of on the fly units like the Xero Pure with a 4040 RO and DI tank and no pump! I'm not sure how they pull that off.  

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doug atkinson

Hi Mike will try and upload a few very short videos to show the flow from an R/O system

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doug atkinson

As cannot upload onto this forum have uploaded it onto our facebook page. This is a 500gpd membrane which is boosted using a battery. Good decent flow.

 

 

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doug atkinson

Excuse the quality very windy. This is a 4021 membrane with a small booster pump the same used as above battery operated. Flow is very good from the brush.

 

Our unit PSI is only 2 bar/30 psi so flow is not good.

 

Pump is 150 psi x 1.5 gpm.

 

This show what can be achieved but the issue is you cannot switch you water flow off on the brush as it would damage the membrane as you would still have waste flow. There are ways to get around this. All these parts you can source in America and build your own. Hope this helps.

 

 

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Mike Krall
17 hours ago, doug atkinson said:

Excuse the quality very windy. This is a 4021 membrane with a small booster pump the same used as above battery operated. Flow is very good from the brush.

 

Our unit PSI is only 2 bar/30 psi so flow is not good.

 

Pump is 150 psi x 1.5 gpm.

 

This show what can be achieved but the issue is you cannot switch you water flow off on the brush as it would damage the membrane as you would still have waste flow. There are ways to get around this. All these parts you can source in America and build your own. Hope this helps.

 

 

 

Hey Doug thanks for taking the time out to post that video I appreciate it!

 

So you would need something to shut flow off before the RO I take it? A pressure pump won't work in that when you stop flow to the brush it stops the pump.

 

 

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doug atkinson

Yes correct as you’re connected to the pure outlet with your pole but the waste is still running.

 

IPC Eagle I think did a bypass valve

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