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chelmsclean

Pump issues - any ideas?

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chelmsclean

So we've been having a bit of trouble with one of the pumps on the van.

When you shut of the water at the pole the pump keeps running even with the Cal turned right down.

I thought it was the controller so I bought new ones and fitted them. It seemed to do the trick but today it's doing the same thing.

Because the pump doesn't shut off you get a burst of high pressure when opening the valve followed by a trickle that's too slow to be of any use.

 

Any ideas?

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Pjj
14 minutes ago, chelmsclean said:

So we've been having a bit of trouble with one of the pumps on the van.

When you shut of the water at the pole the pump keeps running even with the Cal turned right down.

I thought it was the controller so I bought new ones and fitted them. It seemed to do the trick but today it's doing the same thing.

Because the pump doesn't shut off you get a burst of high pressure when opening the valve followed by a trickle that's too slow to be of any use.

 

Any ideas?

 

 

Ian Shepperd is your man for this at spring controllers , very helpful guy 

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spruce
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, chelmsclean said:

So we've been having a bit of trouble with one of the pumps on the van.

When you shut of the water at the pole the pump keeps running even with the Cal turned right down.

I thought it was the controller so I bought new ones and fitted them. It seemed to do the trick but today it's doing the same thing.

Because the pump doesn't shut off you get a burst of high pressure when opening the valve followed by a trickle that's too slow to be of any use.

 

Any ideas?

If the one side is ok and the other isn't then why not try swapping the hose reels around and see if you still have the same problem. If you don't then the problem is in the hose reel. If you do these the issue is before the hose reel.

We find in summer the warmer water makes the hose more pliable. It will swell more under pressure and we get a burst of water when we open the Univalve. The other hose we have on another reel in very much stiffer. Its a nightmare to work with in winter because its as stiff as a reel of wire and just ok in summer. That hose never has issues with swelling though.

Edited by spruce

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Marko067

Sounds odd that after the initial burst of water the flow returns to a trickle. Could it be a split diaphragm in the pump, so that the pump isn't reaching the required pressure (thus current draw) for the controller to switch it off when you shut the water off at the pole?

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chelmsclean

Good suggestion

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Marko067
2 hours ago, chelmsclean said:

Is he on here?

@Ian Sheppard

 

 

Yep. He's posted on one or two of other threads.

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Haz

Might even be the pressure switch inside the pump

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spruce
13 hours ago, chelmsclean said:

So we've been having a bit of trouble with one of the pumps on the van.

When you shut of the water at the pole the pump keeps running even with the Cal turned right down.

I thought it was the controller so I bought new ones and fitted them. It seemed to do the trick but today it's doing the same thing.

Because the pump doesn't shut off you get a burst of high pressure when opening the valve followed by a trickle that's too slow to be of any use.

 

Any ideas?

 

Does the pump eventually ever go to dead end?

I'm sticking with my first post but would like to add an extension to that.

 

Firstly, what pump is it? There was someone a while back who bought a really cheap pump from an Ebay supplier to use it as a van mount pump. He had the problem that the controller wouldn't switch the pump off. The pump he bought didn't have a mechanical pressure switch. It also had a very low current draw of a maximum of 3 amps which was too low for his controller to 'see' it when dead ending.

 

Pumps that have mechanical pressure switches manually trigger the microswitch inside when the preset pressure is reached and this cuts power to the motor. A controller doesn't have a mechanical pressure switch. It uses current draw to activate the dead end facility. When cleaning windows our pumps draw around 4.0 to 4.5 amps. When we turn our flow off the pump continues to run. As it runs and builds up more pressure in the pipe, the motor draws more and more current. Lets say you set your calibration at 65. That basically doesn't mean anything but the controller might see that figure as a current draw of 5 amps. When the motor reaches this draw current of 5 amps the controller electronically cuts power to the pump.

 

The controller then needs to check to see if the pressure in the pipe has reduced. It sends a pulse signal every 3 seconds (4 seconds on my Varistream controller) to see if the pressure is still in the pipe. If the pressure has reduced it activates the pump to start pumping water again.

 

Now, if I switch my Univalve on a second before the controller sends the next pulse signal to the pump motor, I will get that initial surge through my jets but as the pump will start to pump one second later, I will see it pumping as normal with the initial surge.

But if I activate my Univalve fractions of a second after the Varistream of mine has sent that pulse signal to the pump, I will still get that initial burst of flow through my jets and then the pressure in the hose will drop and the water will trickle out of the jets and probably stop (more often in winter when the water is colder and the hose less flexible.) I then have wait for what seems an eternity for the Varistream to send the next pulse 4 seconds later and start the pump motor running again. 

 

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chelmsclean

Hi Spruce, 

It's a flojet I bought from cleaningspot when I started out.

I have two identical pumps and controllers.

They've all worked fine for 8 years up until this.

I'll check how long before it goes to dead end, I didn't have time yesterday but it was over a minute and still hadn't, pressure switch didn't kick in either.

The other pump takes about 5-6 seconds.

The trickle is eternal, it was so slow that we couldn't use and were down to a one man system.

I've had similar symptoms with air in the hose before, but I've run it through cycling into the tank for an hour.

It could just be that the pump has worn out, or something broken inside. 

 

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spruce
6 hours ago, chelmsclean said:

Hi Spruce, 

It's a flojet I bought from cleaningspot when I started out.

I have two identical pumps and controllers.

They've all worked fine for 8 years up until this.

I'll check how long before it goes to dead end, I didn't have time yesterday but it was over a minute and still hadn't, pressure switch didn't kick in either.

The other pump takes about 5-6 seconds.

The trickle is eternal, it was so slow that we couldn't use and were down to a one man system.

I've had similar symptoms with air in the hose before, but I've run it through cycling into the tank for an hour.

It could just be that the pump has worn out, or something broken inside. 

 

 

Lets label the good side A and the bad side B. I would have swapped the pumps around so controller A was driving pump B and pumps B controller driving pump A. I would soon have identified which part was playing up by doing this. But as you have replaced the controller already I recon the problem must be in the pump.

 

I would still prove that by testing the bad pump on the good side.

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chelmsclean

Ok, what I'll do it set both controllers the same.

Note down what.happens with each pump.

Then swap controllers and see what changes.

I'll blank off the outlet from the pump.before the reels to eliminate those too.

Should it be the pump, can you replace diaphragms etc or is it case of a new pump needed?

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spruce
5 hours ago, chelmsclean said:

Ok, what I'll do it set both controllers the same.

Note down what.happens with each pump.

Then swap controllers and see what changes.

I'll blank off the outlet from the pump.before the reels to eliminate those too.

Should it be the pump, can you replace diaphragms etc or is it case of a new pump needed?

 

Personally I would replace the whole unit. It might be a simple fix like a bit of dirt trapped in the internal non return valve. But as the pump is quite old the motor will be worn as well as the carbon brushes. I would replace it with a new pump tbh.

The parts of the pump will always cost more than a complete pump. I divide a pump into 2 main components, the motor assembly and the pump assembly. If one goes the other isn't too far behind.

 

I'm still old school and would try to look for the problem, but its honestly just not worth messing on with it.

 

Many years ago someone in Ford totalled up the complete cost to build a new Escort from parts. The parts alone cost 27 times the retail price of a new Escort in the dealer's showrooms back then. That didn't include the labour of assembly and painting.

Back in the days before the EU, Bosch advised us that the total cost of spares would only be 5 times that of the new retail price of the tool in German Marks. They were very proud of that. When you looked past all the back slapping they were giving themselves, they didn't tell us that the future plan was to increase the price of the replacement armature to a rate that adding labour to replace it would make the tool uneconomical to repair. They envisaged that this would drive up demand for new tools rather than having to carry a large spare part inventory as we did back then. They were directly encouraging the throw away society whilst still giving lips service to having an excellent backup service.

.

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Pjj
13 hours ago, chelmsclean said:

Hi Spruce, 

It's a flojet I bought from cleaningspot when I started out.

I have two identical pumps and controllers.

They've all worked fine for 8 years up until this.

I'll check how long before it goes to dead end, I didn't have time yesterday but it was over a minute and still hadn't, pressure switch didn't kick in either.

The other pump takes about 5-6 seconds.

The trickle is eternal, it was so slow that we couldn't use and were down to a one man system.

I've had similar symptoms with air in the hose before, but I've run it through cycling into the tank for an hour.

It could just be that the pump has worn out, or something broken inside. 

 

 

 

If it’s 8 years old I think I would just replace it probably knackered 😂😂😂😂  

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chelmsclean

What I don't want is to replace it and it's not the pump. Like I did with the controllers

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Iron Giant

Have also ruled out all connections hozelock or otherwise, I helped out a lad the other week who was sure it was his controller and his mate stood there and shook his head but was totally clueless anyway when I told them what the problem was which was an airlock he also had faulty connections you need to systematically go through everything to rule out every possible cause

Once you have done all this only then can you decide to either replace the diaphargm at at a cost of around £30 or have to replace the entire pump for a new one here is one at a reduced price https://purefreedom.co.uk/product/12v-100psi-5-2lpm-shurflo-diaphragm-pump-copy/ at a cost of £81.12 with free delivery

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chelmsclean
Posted (edited)

Thanks lads.

I've been out there this morning.

Switched controllers etc.

Switched reels.

The common denominator is the pump.

With all settings the same running both pumps on same reel and controller one flow is much higher than the other.

Took it apart can't see anything wrong with the valves or diaphragm. There quite a clever design inside, not much in the way of moving parts to wear out etc.

I noticed when I run the motor without the pump attached it's nice and quiet but once the pump is reattached it's a lot noisier than the identical pump.

I've ordered another one, went flojet again as I can't argue with 8 years reliable service and I've a few spare parts etc.

It's probably earned me £200k so i can live with that.

I probably shouldn't have rushed into replacing the controller, but they were a bit wet inside and corroded as I'd mounted them in a silly place so I think I'd have had trouble before long anyway.

Once I'm back up and running I'll have another look at it, as it's good to have a spare, or a backpack filler

Edited by chelmsclean

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chelmsclean

Got to love the price of spare parts.

Not valve and diaphragm assemblies £89

New complete pump £94

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spruce
1 hour ago, chelmsclean said:

Got to love the price of spare parts.

Not valve and diaphragm assemblies £89

New complete pump £94

 

This is the problem with trying to fix things these days.

 

A new motor for our Bosch washing machine costs £255.00 + VAT and delivery from Bosch. Our local domestic appliance outlet wanted £80 + VAT to fit it. A used motor from the same chap was £80 with another £80 if he fitted it, both + VAT. I still had to get the machine to him. If I didn't there was a call out fee to add to this. The problem was a failed front bearing but no one had a press to press the belt drive off the armature shaft. Replacing the bearing and a new set of carbon brushes was a cheap repair. A new washing machine from Curry's was £365.00 including VAT. What are they trying to tell me?

 

I found a new motor from an online supplier for £119.00. As the washing machine was in excellent order, or so I thought, I decided to buy the motor. Guess what? 2 weeks later the impellor on the drain pump disintegrated so I found a replacement for £20 on line and fitted that. 2 years later the washing machine is still working fine so I'm chuffed that I shafted another Bosch sale.

 

Just to add another point about this washing machine. Bosch supply a motor with extremely soft carbon brushes in the motor. They wore out within the first 2 years. This is a wear and tear item and not covered in the Bosch warranty. This is what they call planned obsolesence in the trade as some would just replace the washing machine.

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chelmsclean

It's a shame as there is so much wastage because of this

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Pjj

Unfortunately we live in a world that throws  things away rather than repairs them , getting parts for anything is difficult and expensive 

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spruce
4 hours ago, Pjj said:

Unfortunately we live in a world that throws  things away rather than repairs them , getting parts for anything is difficult and expensive 

 

The manufacturing world will argue differently. They will say that due to mass production they were able to make the product cheaper. Hence the price discrepancy between the new unit and spare parts.

On the face of it they may have a point but competition from the east isn't the full story. They appear to have increased the price of spare parts to make most things uneconomical to repair.

Bosch did the same thing. I could employ another person in the workshop to strip 200 x 9" angle grinders for spare parts every month. In South Africa we would sell 200 replacement armatures a month. We sold 50 field coils, 10 motor housings, 10 handles, 20 on/off switches and 35 sets of bevel gears. I would sell the bevel gears as an assembly with spindle, bearings and seal for the same price as the 2 bevel gears as a part number,  crush 150 field coils, crush 190 motor housings, crush 190 handles, 180 switches and 165 gear sets and still make more profit than buying the exact number of parts as spares from Germany and pay the staff member to do the job. So Bosch was making a fortune on selling parts.

 

When I came to the UK 25 years ago I had a brief spell at Black & Decker. They were just finishing off closing the Spennymoor assembly line in Co Durham and moving it, machinery and all, to a country that was originally behind the iron curtain where labour was cheaper.

 

It just didn't make sense to me because a 13mm 2 speed hammer drill was costing them £6.97 to manufacture in Spennymoor and this included packaging, the chuck and a 3 pin plug. They were selling the same drilling machine for over £80 with refurbished drills at £80. (Refurbished could mean a nearly new drill returned for credit after the buyer had drilled a couple of holes he wanted it for or a brand new machine removed from its packaging and sold in a plastic bag.) I couldn't believe that moving a whole assembly line to another country with reduced labour costs could make much of a dent in £6.97. But there you have it.

 

 

 

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Pjj
35 minutes ago, spruce said:

 

The manufacturing world will argue differently. They will say that due to mass production they were able to make the product cheaper. Hence the price discrepancy between the new unit and spare parts.

On the face of it they may have a point but competition from the east isn't the full story. They appear to have increased the price of spare parts to make most things uneconomical to repair.

Bosch did the same thing. I could employ another person in the workshop to strip 200 x 9" angle grinders for spare parts every month. In South Africa we would sell 200 replacement armatures a month. We sold 50 field coils, 10 motor housings, 10 handles, 20 on/off switches and 35 sets of bevel gears. I would sell the bevel gears as an assembly with spindle, bearings and seal for the same price as the 2 bevel gears as a part number,  crush 150 field coils, crush 190 motor housings, crush 190 handles, 180 switches and 165 gear sets and still make more profit than buying the exact number of parts as spares from Germany and pay the staff member to do the job. So Bosch was making a fortune on selling parts.

 

When I came to the UK 25 years ago I had a brief spell at Black & Decker. They were just finishing off closing the Spennymoor assembly line in Co Durham and moving it, machinery and all, to a country that was originally behind the iron curtain where labour was cheaper.

 

It just didn't make sense to me because a 13mm 2 speed hammer drill was costing them £6.97 to manufacture in Spennymoor and this included packaging, the chuck and a 3 pin plug. They were selling the same drilling machine for over £80 with refurbished drills at £80. (Refurbished could mean a nearly new drill returned for credit after the buyer had drilled a couple of holes he wanted it for or a brand new machine removed from its packaging and sold in a plastic bag.) I couldn't believe that moving a whole assembly line to another country with reduced labour costs could make much of a dent in £6.97. But there you have it.

 

 

 

 

 

A friend of mind was a service engineer for a large white goods supplier for over 20 years , very experienced guy he was made redundant last year due to the fact that the company policy is now to return items to the distribution centre for replacement not repair , he said it cost more for him to replace a motor or pump etc than to replace the whole machine , unfortunately we live in a throw away world  

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Ian Sheppard
On 16/06/2019 at 07:29, chelmsclean said:

Thanks lads.

I've been out there this morning.

Switched controllers etc.

Switched reels.

The common denominator is the pump.

With all settings the same running both pumps on same reel and controller one flow is much higher than the other.

Took it apart can't see anything wrong with the valves or diaphragm. There quite a clever design inside, not much in the way of moving parts to wear out etc.

I noticed when I run the motor without the pump attached it's nice and quiet but once the pump is reattached it's a lot noisier than the identical pump.

I've ordered another one, went flojet again as I can't argue with 8 years reliable service and I've a few spare parts etc.

It's probably earned me £200k so i can live with that.

I probably shouldn't have rushed into replacing the controller, but they were a bit wet inside and corroded as I'd mounted them in a silly place so I think I'd have had trouble before long anyway.

Once I'm back up and running I'll have another look at it, as it's good to have a spare, or a backpack filler

Apologies for the late comment on this stream, I was out on the road a lot of the last week and have been playing catch up this morning.

 

Many thanks to Spruce with some top notch advice and trouble shooting. The advice to switch controllers on to the opposite pump is a very useful diagnostic tool as shown here. Glad to hear the situation has been resolved

 

Cheers

 

ian

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