Making my own water

Evening guys, so as I'm getting busier I'm looking at starting to produce my own water. Im currently paying top dollar to buy it from a local guy and my nearest Spotless is not that near.

So I'm getting my head around the system i think i need which is a 4040 RO. (my water is 270 tds) Need to check the pressure as may need a booster pump?

Im going to be making it in my shed which is insulated and has water and electric to it. 

So once the water has gone through the system and is coming out pure i'll have a 600l tank in the shed to collect it. I'm guessing i can just control that with a ball valve so when its full it will shut off just like a tank in the loft?

Once i have a tank full of pure in the shed, how do i get that to my tank on the van? which is about 20 metres from the shed. Im guessing a submersible pump connected to another hose pipe which i can take to the van? And then once the tank in the shed starts to empty the ball valve should lower to allow the system to start up and produce more pure filling the shed tank back up?

Have i got this roughly right?

Thanks as always guys

AJ Fry said:

Evening guys, so as I'm getting busier I'm looking at starting to produce my own water. Im currently paying top dollar to buy it from a local guy and my nearest Spotless is not that near.

So I'm getting my head around the system i think i need which is a 4040 RO. (my water is 270 tds) Need to check the pressure as may need a booster pump?

If your water pressure is 50psi or slightly over then an Axeon HF5 membrane will work without a booster pump. HF4 membranes need a higher water pressure. Booster pump is the exciting part as you need an electronic on/off switch. These are available. Machine Mart do one. When the water flow stops with the solenoid valve closing, this electronic brain switches the pump off. Cheaper units that work similarily are also available.

https://www.machinemart.co.uk/p/cbm240e-1in-multi-stage-230v-booster-pum/

This Clarke unit can sometimes be found cheaper elsewhere. Here is another option.

https://www.xline-systems.co.uk/en/xline-shop-2/filters-filter-systems/filter-systems/240v-booster-pump-detail

plus

https://www.xline-systems.co.uk/en/xline-shop-2/filters-filter-systems/filter-systems/electronic-shutoff-controller-for-booster-pump-detail

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if you aren't sure about electrics you can get them to assemble it for you at an additional cost.

Im going to be making it in my shed which is insulated and has water and electric to it. 

600 liters of water weighs 600kgs plus the weight of the tank. You need to ensure the shed floor is capable of supporting this weight.

So once the water has gone through the system and is coming out pure i'll have a 600l tank in the shed to collect it. I'm guessing i can just control that with a ball valve so when its full it will shut off just like a tank in the loft? No. you will need a normally off solenoid valve and a float switch. This will switch the water off to the r/o. Using a ball valve will only stop the pure going into the tank.

https://purefreedom.co.uk/product/auto-shut-off-kit/

Once i have a tank full of pure in the shed, how do i get that to my tank on the van? which is about 20 metres from the shed. Im guessing a submersible pump connected to another hose pipe which i can take to the van?

I have a transfer pump with 1" diameter transfer hose. Mine comes from MachineMart although Purefreedom do also supply transfer hose and submersible pumps.

https://www.machinemart.co.uk/p/1in-reinforced-hose/

And then once the tank in the shed starts to empty the ball valve should lower to allow the system to start up and produce more pure filling the shed tank back up?

Have i got this roughly right?

Thanks as always guys

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Thanks so much for taking the time to reply @spruce. I haven't seen so much red ink since i handing in my GCSE coursework of Mice and Men!

In all seriousness this is a huge help, thanks pal. I'll post a pic when I've got it all set up.

Bearing in mind i haven't even built the shed yet it'll be a bit of a project.

I went for a sealey fully stainless submersible pump from Ernest doe, 250lpm.

I got it for £70, if you wiggle the mouse near the back button you'll get a £10 discount!

I was skeptical at that price but it's fantastic

https://www.ernestdoeshop.com/product/sealey-submersible-stainless-250l-auto-water-pump/

I use a 32mm transfer hose

Takes 3-4minutes to fill my tank 5m away.my mate went for standard garden hose on his and not sure which pump but it takes an hour to fill, so definitely go for the bigger hose.

If your into the science there's an interesting article here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hagen–Poiseuille_equation

thanks mate, i was considering just running a garden hose so that answers that question.Thats a huge difference in filling time.  I'll check that pump out aswell.

The other thing to consider @AJ Fry is that 20 meters of transfer hose is not the easiest to coil up after you have filled your van's tank. Mines 12 meters and coiling that back up again isn't the most manageable, especially in winter. When the gas board upgraded the gas lines in our street we couldn't park on the driveway. I could only fill my van in the street so I bought an extra length of hose with hose fitting so I can 'daisy chain' the 2 together. That's about 20 meters long.

A fellow window cleaner down the road has a similar problem with his van. His r/o and IBC tank is in the back garden in a tin shed he purchased. He hasn't got a driveway so his van is parked on the street. There is also a section of grass between the pavement and the road. He uses a flat hose that he rolls up when his van is full. His is 30 meters long. He uses 3" tansfer hose which I think is too big. He wastes a lot of water when packing his stuff away.

Do you have parking on your drive and what size van do you have and what size tank do you have in your van?

spruce said:

The other thing to consider @AJ Fry is that 20 meters of transfer hose is not the easiest to coil up after you have filled your van's tank. Mines 12 meters and coiling that back up again isn't the most manageable, especially in winter. When the gas board upgraded the gas lines in our street we couldn't park on the driveway. I could only fill my van in the street so I bought an extra length of hose with hose fitting so I can 'daisy chain' the 2 together. That's about 20 meters long.

A fellow window cleaner down the road has a similar problem with his van. His r/o and IBC tank is in the back garden in a tin shed he purchased. He hasn't got a driveway so his van is parked on the street. There is also a section of grass between the pavement and the road. He uses a flat hose that he rolls up when his van is full. His is 30 meters long. He uses 3" tansfer hose which I think is too big. He wastes a lot of water when packing his stuff away.

Do you have parking on your drive and what size van do you have and what size tank do you have in your van?

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Mine is a pvc clear hose. It's not to bad to coil up. You have to kind of twist it as you go and no wastage as I put a cap on the end.

I have a hose connection at my garage door. When the van's tank is nearly full I split the transfer hose at this connection, raise the hose up higher than the level of the van' tank and walk back to the van lifting the hose as I walk. This way I empty the remaining water in the hose into the van's tank.

I would love to have a permanent transfer hose running along the garden fence but I'm sure winter will cause the water in the hose to freeze so never bothered. I've done it this way for close on 13 years now so I guess I will continue doing this for a few years still.

yeah thats a fair point @spruce. I say its 20m I'd need to do a bit more of an acurate measurement as it maybe less. 

Essentially the shed will be built relatively close to the houses back door with a footpath down the side of the house to the driveway where the van (vauxhall vivaro) is backed up every night.

Onboard is currently the Compact 325l system from window cleaning warehouse. I need to get some 25l jerry cans to increase the amount of pure i can carry onboard.

Are you thinking a van mounted system may suit better?

As far as running the hose from the shed to van is concerned, i was thinking from the shed along the path this could even be buried and insulated then coming up at the front of the house to a coil, leaving only a couple of metres left of unravel to fill the van. Essentially coiling a couple of metres of it up behind garden gate when not in use?

i noticed on one of @Green Pro Clean Ltd videos he had a trigger nozzle on the end of the transfer hose to control it that way. Like a petrol pump or the ones they use at the spotless filling stations. I thought that was a good idea

This is by far the best transfer hose Flexible Pond Hose  look at the smaller image in the link this stuff is 100% flexible plastic hose no wire running through like most others sold which splits, this stuff you can squeeze it bend it half drive over it and it bounces back so extremely durable I have had the same hose most likely well over 3 years now, I use 30m with hose joiners 

I found that annoyingly springy.

It's funny how we have such different preferences to doing the same thing

AJ Fry said:

yeah thats a fair point @spruce. I say its 20m I'd need to do a bit more of an acurate measurement as it maybe less. 

Essentially the shed will be built relatively close to the houses back door with a footpath down the side of the house to the driveway where the van (vauxhall vivaro) is backed up every night.

Onboard is currently the Compact 325l system from window cleaning warehouse. I need to get some 25l jerry cans to increase the amount of pure i can carry onboard.

Are you thinking a van mounted system may suit better?

As far as running the hose from the shed to van is concerned, i was thinking from the shed along the path this could even be buried and insulated then coming up at the front of the house to a coil, leaving only a couple of metres left of unravel to fill the van. Essentially coiling a couple of metres of it up behind garden gate when not in use?

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? Let me say that I wrote that in an earlier comment before deleting it.

The most important thing to consider with a van mount is pressure drop in the hose over that length of 20 meters. You would need to experiment with this. In other words you would need to know what your water pressure is at the end of the 20 meter length of hose and what LPM of water you are getting through it.

You might even have to consider 3/4" hose rather than 1/2". You will need 2 lengths, one from the tap and the other to the drain. You need to consider the trip hazard aspect as well being on a driveway which is considered public access.

First stop should be a pressure gauge from a good plumbing outlet. Screw fix also sell them.

The other consideration is that you will need to decant water from your tank to the additional containers which will eventually get you down.

If I could I would remove your tank and replace it with a bigger one 500 or 650 depending on the Vivaro's payload and sell yours on Ebay.

IMHO 325 liters isn't enough for a good days work. It is for me as I'm slow and old, but when I put vans together for the lads, (son and son in law) I fitted 500 liter tanks. On a good day both of them used to get through that. They didn't do it every day but the extra was there when they wanted/needed it.

spruce said:

? Let me say that I wrote that in an earlier comment before deleting it.

The most important thing to consider with a van mount is pressure drop in the hose over that length of 20 meters. You would need to experiment with this. In other words you would need to know what your water pressure is at the end of the 20 meter length of hose and what LPM of water you are getting through it.

You might even have to consider 3/4" hose rather than 1/2". You will need 2 lenghts, one from the tap and the other to the drain.

First stop should be a pressure gauge from a good plumbing outlet. Screw fix also sell them.

The other consideration is that you will need to decant water from your tank to the additional containers which will eventually get you down.

If I could I would remove your tank and repalce it with a bigger one 500 or 650 depending on the Vivaro's payload and sell yours on Ebay.

IMHO 325 liters isn't enough for a good days work. It is for me as I'm slow and old, but when I put vans together for the lads, (son and son in law) I fitted 500 liter tanks. On a good day both of them used to get through that. They didn't do it every day but the extra was there when they wanted/needed it.

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I'll grab a pressure gauge and see what I'm dealing with.

I think id rather have the system in the shed and just fill the van each morning 

Yeah the jerry can idea doesn't excite me and having a great big van with a load of containers onboard does sound a bit backwards.

I bought the Compact 325 system on Window Cleaning Warehouses advice. After spending quite a bit on it I've not been impressed with it. Let alone their advice on it would carry plenty of water for a days work. You're right, it simply doesn't. My problem is its a plug in and go system. It comes all pre wired and built with the leisure battery built in to it with the hose reel mounted on top etc. So to sell the tank would mean to sell the whole set up and start again. Not really an option at the minute. I did ask them if i could add another 250l tank to sit next to it and simply drill an outlet and connector low level to increase capacity that way. They simple said they've never heard of this and just to buy a load of containers, magic. in hindsight i agree a 500l tank is the way froward 

AJ Fry said:

I'll grab a pressure gauge and see what I'm dealing with.

I think id rather have the system in the shed and just fill the van each morning 

Yeah the jerry can idea doesn't excite me and having a great big van with a load of containers onboard does sound a bit backwards.

I bought the Compact 325 system on Window Cleaning Warehouses advice. After spending quite a bit on it I've not been impressed with it. Let alone their advice on it would carry plenty of water for a days work. You're right, it simply doesn't. My problem is its a plug in and go system. It comes all pre wired and built with the leisure battery built in to it with the hose reel mounted on top etc. So to sell the tank would mean to sell the whole set up and start again. Not really an option at the minute. I did ask them if i could add another 250l tank to sit next to it and simply drill an outlet and connector low level to increase capacity that way. They simple said they've never heard of this and just to buy a load of containers, magic. in hindsight i agree a 500l tank is the way froward 

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The first wfp setup I had was a trailer made by a supplier. It had 3 x 175 liter tanks mounted side by side and linked together via their outlets. The downside was that when the tanks got low, the higher side with the trailer parked on a kerb meant lots of water in one tank and none in the other. I used to unhitch the trailer when the tanks were low in the afternoon and rest the towbar on the road to eke out the remaining water.

There is nothing stopping you adding another tank and linking them together. They should preferrably be the same height as filling tanks at different heights can be create its own problems unless you have a stop valve on the outlet of the tallest tank.

At one time there were a number of suppliers selling tanks linked together eg 2 x 250 liter tanks in a single tank frame equating to 500 liters. A cleaner in Bristol has this arrangement. He has a heating element in one tank and not in the other so can decide if he wants to use hot or cold water on each clean he does in winter.

But by the time you buy it and fit it you might as well scrap the idea and go for a bigger tank as the costs won't be that much different.

Sadly, many window cleaners listen to the advise of sales people who don't always have their customers best interests at heart. Selling a small tank sounds good because a small tank costs less and of course it will be big enough. But they are also setting themselves up for repeat business further down the line when you find out that your tank actually isn't big enough.

Ebay always seems to have an endless supply of used 250 liter Brodex tanks because users have found they are just too small to work with.