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Exchef93

Ladder climbs i don't think about

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Cleanco
2 hours ago, Master Jedi Alejandro said:

Folk did what they did because they had too. But we don’t live in that world anymore, not at least in the West. My uncle use to walk along ledges 2 stories up to clean the Otherwise unreachable windows and his boss would pay him a bit extra for it. He admits himself it was mad but it’s what they did. But we don’t have to anymore, we don’t have to risk ourselves to put bread on the table so why do it? It’s not like it’s high reward for high risk. Like it’s been said most WFP cleaners make more than trad.
 

The point about other trades is also not 100% as no trade I can think of (and correct me if I’m wrong) move their ladders anywhere near as much as window cleaners. I watched a guy install a satellite dish up the side of a two story tenement, he did it off ladders. To me it looked mental. But he was obviously safe. But how many does he do a day? Three, four, five at a push? Even if he instead 10 a day he would still be no where near moving his ladders the number of times a window cleaner does! And this is the risk. Ladders are safe when used properly. The problem is we are humans and we make mistakes, not matter how experienced. 
 

However, this all being said it’s opinion for the most part. I have a idea that may or may not work. 😬😂

 

 @Simply Business @Martin Holden you lot are in the business of risk assessment, would you be able to shed any light on it. For instance, is there a higher risk using ladders when window cleaning as suppose a painter?  

I would have thought the opposite. It doesn’t matter how many climbs you do but more importantly and where the risk comes is how long your spending up the ladder and window cleaners probs spend the least. I charge more if the custy requests a trad clean compared to wfp as it takes longer so I make the same weather trad of wfp. I’ve been at this for 20+ years and using wfp for over 15 of them and for me if you don’t use ladders at all then your doing one of two things. Selectively picking work that suits wfp or doing them anyway and making a mess. 

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scottish cleaning service

Climbing ladders is now affecting my hip and my knees. I thought it would never happen but my age is catching up with me. If there is an easier way then I will be taking it, don't really discuss it with my customers now. Some have asked and I say its hot water, like steam cleaning and give me your thoughts on it.

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Exchef93
25 minutes ago, Cleanco said:

 I’ve been at this for 20+ years and using wfp for over 15 of them and for me if you don’t use ladders at all then your doing one of two things. Selectively picking work that suits wfp or doing them anyway and making a mess. 

And if guys with wfp are doing this, that is what keeps trad cleaners in business. Until people with wfp will do a 100% jobs on every single property, trad the odd houses that have leaking windows, or get up to clean the balcony windows, they are always leaving a gap in the market for us.

If they go and do a property which isnt suitable for wfp, do a complete trash job, that customer will never use a windie with wfp again.... even if they move to a more suitable house, the bad taste is still there 

Edited by Exchef93

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dmw
1 hour ago, Exchef93 said:

And if guys with wfp are doing this, that is what keeps trad cleaners in business. Until people with wfp will do a 100% jobs on every single property, trad the odd houses that have leaking windows, or get up to clean the balcony windows, they are always leaving a gap in the market for us.

If they go and do a property which isnt suitable for wfp, do a complete trash job, that customer will never use a windie with wfp again.... even if they move to a more suitable house, the bad taste is still there 

I tradded for 26 years and never got it 100% perfect (none of us do) and I do loads of tall1930s bay windowed semi's and those upstairs  top front bedroom openers only ever got scrimmed over because they were too much of a stretch to squeegee off. 

So I still do those same houses now and I do a better job especially on leadeds. The only issues I ever get are perished seals where you can get runs and are never perfect even with extra care.

You're right about one thing, if a customer has a **** WFP experience that galvanises the customer into thinking it's a poor method. It's up to us all to do the best job we can and change that perception.

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NoName

Once more unto the breach, dear friends...

"No one has to have been harmed for an offence to be committed under HSWA – there only has to be a risk of harm" <https://www.hse.gov.uk/simple-health-safety/law/health-safety-law.htm

If you do not comply with a regulation relevant to your work, you’ll normally be committing a criminal offence<https://www.hse.gov.uk/simple-health-safety/law/health-safety-law.htm

There are many examples within the cleaning industry of accidents involving working at height, for example: whilst working ... from ladders whilst window cleaning... With a little planning and by using competent people (who have the right experience and training) and the right equipment, these accidents could have been avoided.

What you must do

The law

Work at Height Regulations 2005 (as amended)  place duties on employers, the self-employed, and any person that controls the work of others (for example facilities managers or building owners who may contract others to work at height).

 

As part of the Regulations, duty holders must ensure:

...the risks from work at height are assessed and appropriate work equipment is selected and used;

There is a simple hierarchy for managing and selecting equipment for work at height.

Duty holders must:

  1. avoid work at height where they can
  2. use work equipment or other measures to prevent falls where they cannot avoid working at height; and

  3. where they cannot eliminate the risk of a fall, use work equipment or other measures to minimise the distance and consequences of a fall should one occur.

    https://www.hse.gov.uk/cleaning/falls.htm>

  Portable Ladders

Portable ladders have traditionally been used mainly for cleaning domestic premise windows on ground, first and second floors. Whilst use of a ladder should NOT be your automatic choice, it can be the most sensible and practical option for low-risk, short duration tasks.

 https://www.hse.gov.uk/cleaning/topics/window-cleaning.htm>

Almost all falls from ladders happen because the ladder moves unexpectedly. The key factor in preventing falls from ladders is to ensure your ladder is stable whilst being used, through careful consideration of the working conditions and whenever possible tying the ladder to a suitable point to prevent movement.  <https://www.hse.gov.uk/cleaning/topics/window-cleaning.htm

Working at height remains one of the biggest causes of fatalities and major injuries. Common cases include falls from ladders...

 

This section shows how employers can take simple, practical measures to reduce the risk of any of their workers falling while working at height.<https://www.hse.gov.uk/toolbox/height.htm>  

So Exchef/Mike et al it’s NOT a case of WFP running trad guys down per se....

The HSE recognises the very real risk of death/major injury from unsafe ladder use in our specific industry and as a result helpfully advise us, they’ve produced a specific doc for our Window Cleaning Industry..and it says it DOES NOT NEED TO BE DONE THAT WAY and we can reduce or eliminate significant risk from our working days...in your case you could do that job much more safely with a cheap WFP & backpack...(as the HSE are plainly saying) or if you don’t see the advantage you could simply get these fitted to your ladder

https://www.industry-supplies.co.uk/product/ladder-leveller/

Or fix a tie off bolt
Or clean them from inside 
Of have someone foot the ladder (at the very very least)

WFP guys are just trying to ‘help’ you realise you don’t need to work in an unsafe/illegal way. Were all in the same industry, makes sense those who use methods which make them feel safer try to spread the ‘gospel’...stay safe!

(phew I'm off for a lie down)😅

 

 

 

 

 

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Part Timer

The interesting thing about the above is it's the homeowner that has duty of care placed on them. If, God forbid, someone dies cleaning their windows, and it's subsequently proven, due to unsafe practices, they are liable and face all the consequences that go with it 

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scottish cleaning service

When I started cold wfp I was not that impressed with it. Started again but this time my heater was working and away I went again but this time giving the vents a good flush out. Done my house a few times with the hot water and what a difference, can't find a spot of dust on the patio doors even the detail areas. Did all my neighbours white pvc doors and they seem to sparkle white. Don't think anyone can argue against the facts bar it leaves the glass and sill wet.

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mike007
19 hours ago, Iron Giant said:


I would guess on average a trad cleaner would move a ladder on a house 4x lets say and cleans 20 houses a day on average that's 80 ladder moves a day even if it was 60-70 moves a day, no other trade would move there ladder as much within any working day as a trad window cleaner, so the risk factor would be higher
 

A pro golfer sets up his tee  and himself a hundred of times a day....a pro Trad windie sets up his ladder and himself likewise!!!!

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Iron Giant
11 minutes ago, mike007 said:

A pro golfer sets up his tee  and himself a hundred of times a day....a pro Trad windie sets up his ladder and himself likewise!!!!


Yes but a pro golfer keeps there feet firmly on the ground, just like wfper 😅

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mike007
17 hours ago, scottish cleaning service said:

Climbing ladders is now affecting my hip and my knees. I thought it would never happen but my age is catching up with me. If there is an easier way then I will be taking it, don't really discuss it with my customers now. Some have asked and I say its hot water, like steam cleaning and give me your thoughts on it.

Playing saturday and sunday league football, martial arts, running etc and work have together with age affected my body too, just normal.Though small price to pay for the enjoyment I got in return.

Thing is with the Government pushing the retirement age ever higher, they forget the people who have physical jobs are clapped out body wise from a lifetime of graft....fine if your a office worker at a desk shuffling papers your entire career, but if you worked on a building site or a foundry etc...or maybe a windie (either sort) it,s different. We are like old cars...break down more often than newer models.

  

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mike007
12 hours ago, Part Timer said:

The interesting thing about the above is it's the homeowner that has duty of care placed on them. If, God forbid, someone dies cleaning their windows, and it's subsequently proven, due to unsafe practices, they are liable and face all the consequences that go with it 

Told that several times when on H&S courses in past.

Also as I mentioned somewhere before, We all legally have a Duty of Care for ourselves and others.

12 hours ago, NoName said:

Once more unto the breach, dear friends...

"No one has to have been harmed for an offence to be committed under HSWA – there only has to be a risk of harm" <https://www.hse.gov.uk/simple-health-safety/law/health-safety-law.htm

If you do not comply with a regulation relevant to your work, you’ll normally be committing a criminal offence<https://www.hse.gov.uk/simple-health-safety/law/health-safety-law.htm

There are many examples within the cleaning industry of accidents involving working at height, for example: whilst working ... from ladders whilst window cleaning... With a little planning and by using competent people (who have the right experience and training) and the right equipment, these accidents could have been avoided.

What you must do

 

 

The law

 

 

Work at Height Regulations 2005 (as amended)  place duties on employers, the self-employed, and any person that controls the work of others (for example facilities managers or building owners who may contract others to work at height).

 

As part of the Regulations, duty holders must ensure:

 

 

...the risks from work at height are assessed and appropriate work equipment is selected and used;

There is a simple hierarchy for managing and selecting equipment for work at height.

 

 

Duty holders must:

 

 

  1. avoid work at height where they can
  2. use work equipment or other measures to prevent falls where they cannot avoid working at height; and

     

     

  3. where they cannot eliminate the risk of a fall, use work equipment or other measures to minimise the distance and consequences of a fall should one occur.

     

    https://www.hse.gov.uk/cleaning/falls.htm>

     

     

  Portable Ladders

 

Portable ladders have traditionally been used mainly for cleaning domestic premise windows on ground, first and second floors. Whilst use of a ladder should NOT be your automatic choice, it can be the most sensible and practical option for low-risk, short duration tasks.

 

 https://www.hse.gov.uk/cleaning/topics/window-cleaning.htm>

Almost all falls from ladders happen because the ladder moves unexpectedly. The key factor in preventing falls from ladders is to ensure your ladder is stable whilst being used, through careful consideration of the working conditions and whenever possible tying the ladder to a suitable point to prevent movement.  <https://www.hse.gov.uk/cleaning/topics/window-cleaning.htm

Working at height remains one of the biggest causes of fatalities and major injuries. Common cases include falls from ladders...

 

 

This section shows how employers can take simple, practical measures to reduce the risk of any of their workers falling while working at height.<https://www.hse.gov.uk/toolbox/height.htm>  

 

 

So Exchef/Mike et al it’s NOT a case of WFP running trad guys down per se....

The HSE recognises the very real risk of death/major injury from unsafe ladder use in our specific industry and as a result helpfully advise us, they’ve produced a specific doc for our Window Cleaning Industry..and it says it DOES NOT NEED TO BE DONE THAT WAY and we can reduce or eliminate significant risk from our working days...in your case you could do that job much more safely with a cheap WFP & backpack...(as the HSE are plainly saying) or if you don’t see the advantage you could simply get these fitted to your ladder

 

 

https://www.industry-supplies.co.uk/product/ladder-leveller/

Or fix a tie off bolt
Or clean them from inside 
Of have someone foot the ladder (at the very very least)

WFP guys are just trying to ‘help’ you realise you don’t need to work in an unsafe/illegal way. Were all in the same industry, makes sense those who use methods which make them feel safer try to spread the ‘gospel’...stay safe!

 

 

(phew I'm off for a lie down)😅

 

 

 

 

 

"it can be the most sensible and practical option for low-risk, short duration tasks"

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P4dstar
7 minutes ago, Dave B said:

You can't argue with statistics whatever your opinion is.

 

Screenshot_20200112-115057_Samsung Internet.jpg

Even higher than roofing mate. Just reads that to the wife, she was not impressed.

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solarpanelcleaningltd
On 11/01/2020 at 14:15, Exchef93 said:

And if guys with wfp are doing this, that is what keeps trad cleaners in business. Until people with wfp will do a 100% jobs on every single property, trad the odd houses that have leaking windows, or get up to clean the balcony windows, they are always leaving a gap in the market for us.

If they go and do a property which isnt suitable for wfp, do a complete trash job, that customer will never use a windie with wfp again.... even if they move to a more suitable house, the bad taste is still there 


 

When you’re cleaning 100%, how do clean a velux? Be great to hear.

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Exchef93
33 minutes ago, solarpanelcleaningltd said:


 

When you’re cleaning 100%, how do clean a velux? Be great to hear.

I didnt mean doing a job to a standard of 100% clean, i meant doing 100% of jobs asked of you, including going over balconies or gates and tradding leaking windows. Not turning away jobs because of the inconvenience of doing it

 

Buy i clean a velux by walking on the roof, or if its closer to the gutter, put the ladder up above the gutter line, or doing it from inside out

Edited by Exchef93

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dmw
18 minutes ago, solarpanelcleaningltd said:


And windows over conservatories....?

When you’re cleaning 100%, how do clean a velux? Be great to hear.

 

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Exchef93
13 minutes ago, dmw said:

And windows over conservatories....?

From inside out? If its a flat conny you can stand on the bars aswell

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Dave B
11 minutes ago, Exchef93 said:

From inside out? If its a flat conny you can stand on the bars aswell

Point proved.. no more to be said.

Standing on conny roof bars isn't dangerous at all.🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣.

What a load of 💩

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Exchef93
1 minute ago, Dave B said:

Point proved.. no more to be said.

Standing on conny roof bars isn't dangerous at all.🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣.

What a load of 💩

Of course it can be dangerous... its not exactly the ideal thing you would want to do, its much easier and safer to do it from inside out? And there is only the odd one which you could even consider doing it. 99% of the time we'd just tell the customer we cant do it and they  would be fine

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Part Timer
13 minutes ago, Exchef93 said:

And there is only the odd one which you could even consider doing it. 99% of the time we'd just tell the customer we cant do it and they  would be fine

You've claimed to be part of the "clean up crew" and WFP guys are selective about what work they do and then you admit to not doing windows over a conservatory and claim to have access to WFP equipment 🤣

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