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Jase2k2k

Trad to WFP transition advice.

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Jase2k2k

Hi all. Was hoping for some advice on introducing a water fed system into a traditional round. 
I've built the round over the last few years. A lot of my customers are wanting traditional cleaning, but a couple of ladder tumbles and aging knees I need to change. 

I've decided to go with a portable/backpack unit to introduce water fed cleaning to upstairs, while retaining traditional on ground level. This will be a learning curve for me and my customers and keeping part traditional seems a good way to phase in, with safety, insurance and working at height laws to sell the transition to customers. I've talked to a few long term customers and they seem to understand, most wanting to keep traditional for lower levels. 

The majority being standard ground and 1st floor properties, about 4 needing tripple ladder work! My round is residential only, With the exception of a holiday park with some chalet work, but planning to stick with traditional for this.

Anyway the advise I'm looking for is on the setup.
My tap water is 270ppm with the local water board stating a calcium level of 110m/l.

1) anyone else using a backpack? What type do you recommend and do they last the day on battery life?

2) water systems. I'm currently researching the types of filter systems and hoping I can used a di only system. Do you think this is possible with a 270ppm tds reading? 
If so what type of vessel, resin is just baffling.
Am I right in thinking it's a simple case of tap water in, deionised water out? Do you need a pump? Is it a quick in/out process and would I be able to fill my barrels instantly?

Because it's going to be a replacement for ladder work and tops only I don't see too much water needed, estimating 6-8 25 litre barrels to last the day to start with. A friend of a friend takes out 8 for a days work with a backpack, I'm presuming for all windows.

I've seen a package from Windows cleaning warehouse with the beginners setup. Thoughts? 
https://windowcleaningwarehouse.co.uk/products/facelift®-bigboy-2-backpack-starter-kit-ultra-30ft?variant=30709875212357&currency=GBP&utm_campaign=gs-2019-09-19&utm_source=google&utm_medium=smart_campaign&gclid=Cj0KCQiAjfvwBRCkARIsAIqSWlNoIk5izC-xTSagrxsc0Roi88QLc8dIMQFFnOKRXUn-0IbdwjO94lgaAn0JEALw_wcB

 

I understand the Di unit will cost a bit more for the cartridge system, anyone used this? Should I just get a standard di vessel and resin?

Any help/advise would be appreciated. Cheers. 

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DeLaCruz

Whats the tds of your water from the tap ? Would recommend buyin one of these meters: 

HM Digital TDS meter

 

If it is 270ppm then i think it is quite high, which requires more resin for Di or RO system. 

 

Advantages of DI are quicker, RO is slower and wastes more water. Depending on the tds your better off cost wise with one of these options - others will be able to recommend you the best option i am sure as your tds is kinda in the middle to high zone if its actually 270. Once you know your TDS you can make a plan for the system. If you have low enough TDS i would recommend just using a double Di system.

 

I know i looked at the Hydropower when i was starting and read that using a <11L vessel is inefficient for resin consumption. Not sure how accurate that is fwiw just what i heard. I use a double Di setup and its easy to run / maintain. 

 

Also worth considering is the water tank size - 22L is quite small and would not last me more than a few houses max. I am quite heavy on my water usage but i think you may be grateful for a larger tank. 

 

If you have a pure water outlet near by you could just grab a backpack and pole setup and you'd be good to go.

Edited by DeLaCruz

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Part Timer

!, @Incheckuses backpack only, you will need a trolley to strap it on.

 

2, you will need to have a word with @doug atkinson at Daqua about an R/O. DI only will cost you a fortune long term. Have you got anywhere secure with water and electric in as it will be best to store it in an IBC then transfer to barrels.

 

After you've proven to your customers that the WFP system works well you will more than likely want to do all windows with WFP. If you ignore the cost implications and go DI only then get 2 x 12l DI vessels and double DI your water, search on here regarding this method. Yes it is as quick as water in water out using this method.

I personally wouldn't use the DI in the link.

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spruce

If you have 'ageing' knees @Jase2k2k then there's a pretty good chance you have ageing other stuff as well. Trust me, I know. If you don't know about the other stuff yet, you will soon find out using a backpack.

 

My advice is to stop pussy footing around, beg, borrow but don't steal and go for a van mount straight away. You will end up doing it in time so rather do it now.

 

Swapping over to wfp from trad isn't cheap, but then your life is always going to be worth more. Ask a local trad cleaner who refused to go wfp because it was too expensive.. He fell from his ladders and is now paralyzed from the chest down. (I doubt his customer's worried too much for his current well being as they started to search for a new window cleaner when they heard he wasn't coming back. His unfortunate accident hardly created a ripple.) When compared to other business ventures getting into trad window cleaning was one of the cheapest businesses to go into as your start-up costs were negligible and you started earning for virtually day one. Wfp is different.

 

Its going to cost you buying a van and another £3500 to £4000 getting it kitted out with a good pole and r/o unit to process water.

 

Another point. How do you know a lot of your customers prefer traditional cleaning?  When we changed our trad round over to wfp we lost a few to a traditional cleaner who still works the area. That was 15 years ago when wfp was new for residential customers. But we gained far more than we lost because of the new system. Around here now, trad windies are few are far between. They aren't taking on new customers. If its the same in your area then let them find a trad cleaner.

 

When we did trad I was going to clean tops wfp and bottoms trad. That idea lasted exactly 1 hour into my first day wfp. Why carry 2 kits? The other issue is that I'm short so I still needed to carry steps to reach the tops of the downstairs windows, especially as we had a round of Victorian houses to clean. For me even with half a brain, it was so much quicker doing everything wfp.

 

Next; forget buying kits. They sell you a kit with equipment that makes them more profit but may not be the best stuff. Usually a fiberglass pole is part of the kit and this is a pole you don't want.

 

Gardiner for poles, hybrid but carbon fiber is best, Purefreedom sell a cost effective van system and Daqua for r/o units. (Gardiner also sell a backpack.)

At you tap water tds you need an r/o, not di only as resin will cost you a fortune.

 

If you have a Spotless water outlet near you it might be worthwhile buying water in until you get established. Whether you process water yourself or buy it in you need 25 liter plastic containers to transport your water to site and decant into your backpack.

We find (or my son finds) that he can clean a 3 bed semi with a full backpack. He will use more if the house has a conservatory. I can't pick up a full backpack.

 

 

 

Edited by spruce

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scottish cleaning service

Today I did a first clean on a semi detached with a high conny attached. Poor guy couldn't get anyone to clean his windows. They all came (trad guys) and had one look at it and away they went. I did it with the wfp and it took me an hour because i was dipping brush in degreaser to get rid of any alga. I think he will be happy at £20 a month. If I hadn't bought the system then I couldn't have quoted for it and probably get more in the street once I'm up and running. This morning I traded the care home because the wfp is more hassle as I can't get near the place with my van. Willing to do both trad and wfp means it opens up all avenues. 😉

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Jase2k2k
32 minutes ago, spruce said:

If you have 'ageing' knees @Jase2k2k then there's a pretty good chance you have ageing other stuff as well. Trust me, I know. If you don't know about the other stuff yet, you will soon find out using a backpack.

 

My advice is to stop pussy footing around, beg, borrow but don't steal and go for a van mount straight away. You will end up doing it in time so rather do it now.

 

Swapping over to wfp from trad isn't cheap, but then your life is always going to be worth more. Ask a local trad cleaner who refused to go wfp because it was too expensive.. He fell from his ladders and is now paralyzed from the chest down. (I doubt his customer's worried too much for his current well being as they started to search for a new window cleaner when they heard he wasn't coming back. His unfortunate accident hardly created a ripple.) When compared to other business ventures getting into trad window cleaning was one of the cheapest businesses to go into as your start-up costs were negligible and you started earning for virtually day one. Wfp is different.

 

Its going to cost you buying a van and another £3500 to £4000 getting it kitted out with a good pole and r/o unit to process water.

 

Another point. How do you know a lot of your customers prefer traditional cleaning?  When we changed our trad round over to wfp we lost a few to a traditional cleaner who still works the area. That was 15 years ago when wfp was new for residential customers. But we gained far more than we lost because of the new system. Around here now, trad windies are few are far between. They aren't taking on new customers. If its the same in your area then let them find a trad cleaner.

 

When we did trad I was going to clean tops wfp and bottoms trad. That idea lasted exactly 1 hour into my first day wfp. Why carry 2 kits? The other issue is that I'm short so I still needed to carry steps to reach the tops of the downstairs windows, especially as we had a round of Victorian houses to clean. For me even with half a brain, it was so much quicker doing everything wfp.

 

Next; forget buying kits. They sell you a kit with equipment that makes them more profit but may not be the best stuff. Usually a fiberglass pole is part of the kit and this is a pole you don't want.

 

Gardiner for poles, hybrid but carbon fiber is best, Purefreedom sell a cost effective van system and Daqua for r/o units. (Gardiner also sell a backpack.)

At you tap water tds you need an r/o, not di only as resin will cost you a fortune.

 

If you have a Spotless water outlet near you it might be worthwhile buying water in until you get established. Whether you process water yourself or buy it in you need 25 liter plastic containers to transport your water to site and decant into your backpack.

We find (or my son finds) that he can clean a 3 bed semi with a full backpack. He will use more if the house has a conservatory. I can't pick up a full backpack.

 

 

 

Many thanks. That's given me a lot to think about and look into. 👍

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spruce
19 minutes ago, Jase2k2k said:

Many thanks. That's given me a lot to think about and look into. 👍

Most of us struggled and scrimped to get into wfp.

 

I already had a small Suzuki Carry Van. I didn't want to sell it as it had low mileage (19K) and was in good nick. What I wanted was a van mount but decided on a trailer system my Suzuki could tow. Yes, it got me into wfp but actually it cost me far more in the end.

 

It was a supplier unit but the frame rusted and was in pretty bad shape after 3 years. The axle, hubs and tyres weren't designed to carry the weight of the water in the tanks that the supplier had fitted.and regularly failed and had to be replaced. In fact I carried hubs in stock and put them out for the rag and bone man a couple of months ago.

 

I ended up buying a 1.9d Citroen Relay and fitting a 650 liter tank for 2 operators in that. I should have done that in the first place and saved £2500.

The trailer came as a system with Unger Teleplus Aluminum poles and Salmon brushes The poles were probably more whippy than fiber glass poles and the Salmon brush was rubbish. The only descent brush we could buy was a Vikan oval car cleaning brush weighing 450 grams. So many of us purchased Bentley floor brushes and used them as they were lighter. But they weren't designed to clean windows.

 

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scottish cleaning service

I'm trying to work out why wfp has grown so fast recently. Must be to do with the price of the poles coming down. Another thing is the work that can be undertaken from ground level and is much cheaper than a scaffold. I believe there is only one way for wfp and its up the way. If anyone on here wants their business to grow then they must have a wfp system in place or they will get left behind. fwiw

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Dave B
3 minutes ago, scottish cleaning service said:

I'm trying to work out why wfp has grown so fast recently. Must be to do with the price of the poles coming down. Another thing is the work that can be undertaken from ground level and is much cheaper than a scaffold. I believe there is only one way for wfp and its up the way. If anyone on here wants their business to grow then they must have a wfp system in place or they will get left behind. fwiw

Probably because it does a better job.

Was trad for 24 years before wfp just so the haters know before insulting me🤣🤣

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wezza13

Or you could diy your own van system? 
 

All you need is a water tank, leisure battery, hose reel, pump, controller and pole with brush. A lot cheaper and you’ll set it up yourself in a couple of hours. Setup an RO system in your back garden/garage and you’re away producing your own pure water.
 

Very easy to do and will get all of that weight off of your back 👍🏻

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Incheck

I agree with part timer double DI is what we use and it’s a quick simple and easy way of going wfp without the worries of a van setup. But agreeing with spruce also the physical demands of filling backpacks and tanks and the potential lifting involved is no easy task you will definitely need a sack truck but this only helps for moving around properties, you still have the heavy loading and unloading on and off the van. In my honest opinion it’s not terrific for your body, the back in particular. You may just be trading one evil for another. And the extra expense...

I Did a builders clean yesterday and really benefited from not having to lift much as it was basically all trad, lot of blade scraping involved.
Maybe you could tone it down a bit? Work less days, or less hours per day? Triple ladder work i understand your concerns that ideally needs to change or stop as i wouldnt trad anything higher than the upstairs of your average house myself its madness. 
work on your joints, go swimming? Do yoga? Maybe you’re working far too much and need a better lifestyle balance. A lot of us put far too much pressure on ourselves and work far too much 😢

All sorts of factors come in to it. i know its hard but maybe try and charge more and work less? If you feel you can only manage four or five hours a day at a leisurely pace before the aches start to kick in then maybe thats the way to go? We are self employed after all. We’re supposed to be able to set our own hours and wages as opposed to grinding 8 hours a day for 5 or 6 days a week when employed. Putting it in to practice is hard i know. 

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Jase2k2k
1 hour ago, Incheck said:

I agree with part timer double DI is what we use and it’s a quick simple and easy way of going wfp without the worries of a van setup. But agreeing with spruce also the physical demands of filling backpacks and tanks and the potential lifting involved is no easy task you will definitely need a sack truck but this only helps for moving around properties, you still have the heavy loading and unloading on and off the van. In my honest opinion it’s not terrific for your body, the back in particular. You may just be trading one evil for another. And the extra expense...

I Did a builders clean yesterday and really benefited from not having to lift much as it was basically all trad, lot of blade scraping involved.
Maybe you could tone it down a bit? Work less days, or less hours per day? Triple ladder work i understand your concerns that ideally needs to change or stop as i wouldnt trad anything higher than the upstairs of your average house myself its madness. 
work on your joints, go swimming? Do yoga? Maybe you’re working far too much and need a better lifestyle balance. A lot of us put far too much pressure on ourselves and work far too much 😢

All sorts of factors come in to it. i know its hard but maybe try and charge more and work less? If you feel you can only manage four or five hours a day at a leisurely pace before the aches start to kick in then maybe thats the way to go? We are self employed after all. We’re supposed to be able to set our own hours and wages as opposed to grinding 8 hours a day for 5 or 6 days a week when employed. Putting it in to practice is hard i know. 

Thank you, that's very helpful. Yes this is a health consideration rather than a change of business or expanding. I started this job for a change of work life balance and try to work 4 days where possible. I visit a chiropractor monthly... Bloomin fantastic to reset hard worked muscles and look after things that may occur. Yes I agree swimming would be good too. I've taken on someone to also help with a busy round, not getting through things in the time desired.

So yes the aim is my health. Ladders currently are the big strain for me.

So I will look at a system with at least wheels/trolly, even a backpack on a trolly. With this and someone helping 2 or 3 days it will put me in the place I need to be physically. It may be s transition to a bigger system down the line, but I need to work out the science behind the water, get my head around connectors, hoses and brush types, poles.... It seems simple but when working with a bucket n squeegee it's a very different world.

Thanks very much. 👍

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dmw
1 hour ago, Jase2k2k said:

Thank you, that's very helpful. Yes this is a health consideration rather than a change of business or expanding. I started this job for a change of work life balance and try to work 4 days where possible. I visit a chiropractor monthly... Bloomin fantastic to reset hard worked muscles and look after things that may occur. Yes I agree swimming would be good too. I've taken on someone to also help with a busy round, not getting through things in the time desired.

So yes the aim is my health. Ladders currently are the big strain for me.

So I will look at a system with at least wheels/trolly, even a backpack on a trolly. With this and someone helping 2 or 3 days it will put me in the place I need to be physically. It may be s transition to a bigger system down the line, but I need to work out the science behind the water, get my head around connectors, hoses and brush types, poles.... It seems simple but when working with a bucket n squeegee it's a very different world.

Thanks very much. 👍

When I changed overnight from trad to wfp (up and down),after the changeover had bedded in, I went from working 8 hours a day to 6. Effectively it saves a day per week.

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laddergarder

I am currently in the process of changing my rounds. I am not doing tops only wfp though. I am just going for it.

 

I bought a 18ft starter kit similar to what you have linked to. I have a Di tank with 6 barrels at the moment.

 

I find 6 barrels isn't allot for first cleans, but once I have changed them over and got past that first clean, I should be able the get a morning in with that, along with water in the bkpack. 

 

I find it takes me maybe 15-20 mins to fill my barrels. My plan is to fit a 350ltr tank shortly in the van, so this is only temporary for now.

 

The backpack I have hasn't run out or charge for me so far. I just leave it on charge in the house over night. I use a bigboy bkpack from WCW.

 

I don't know if I would stick with the bkpack, it is a pain. But to start off with, and a good backup if anything going wrong with your van mount its perfect.

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Incheck
1 hour ago, laddergarder said:

I am currently in the process of changing my rounds. I am not doing tops only wfp though. I am just going for it.

 

I bought a 18ft starter kit similar to what you have linked to. I have a Di tank with 6 barrels at the moment.

 

I find 6 barrels isn't allot for first cleans, but once I have changed them over and got past that first clean, I should be able the get a morning in with that, along with water in the bkpack. 

 

I find it takes me maybe 15-20 mins to fill my barrels. My plan is to fit a 350ltr tank shortly in the van, so this is only temporary for now.

 

The backpack I have hasn't run out or charge for me so far. I just leave it on charge in the house over night. I use a bigboy bkpack from WCW.

 

I don't know if I would stick with the bkpack, it is a pain. But to start off with, and a good backup if anything going wrong with your van mount its perfect.

I agree, we carry 500L of water all in barrels, Before i split the rounds to allow for reduced daylight hours we could easily go through 20-25 of those 25L barrels a day, granted we underfill them a bit simply to make easier when carrying/loading/pouring in to the backpack

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Suhrly

I'm sorry but when I switched from Trad to WFP, my customers didn't have a choice or say in the matter. I simply rocked up and started cleaning them WFP. I lost a good few admittedly but I was more concerned about falling off a ladder because it's just a matter of when. You can replace the ones you lose so don't worry about it. Ditch that squeegee and go for it!

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Iron Giant

I was in my early thirties when I went wfp and started off with a trolley system and I lasted 3-4 years of lugging about barrels and lifting a PureFreedom trolley around and doing my back in once in a while with lifting, 12 years ago I spent just over £1,000 to get me set up with a trolley, containers, pole and R/O, I spent around £500 a few years later moving to a diy tank system in a pickup, fast forward another few years and I paid over £2,000 to have tank and delivery system professionally fitted in my van

If you are struggling physically now, you will struggle more with a trolley system, that's guaranteed. I appreciate it's a big leap of faith but taking the plunge to having a full fitted out van mounted system is no different to using a backpack they both require the same core components, pure water, a vessel for water and pump and battery, getting a van mount will save you far more hassle, make your working day a lot easier and save you more money long term.  

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dmw
On 15/01/2020 at 10:01, Jase2k2k said:

Hi all. Was hoping for some advice on introducing a water fed system into a traditional round. 
I've built the round over the last few years. A lot of my customers are wanting traditional cleaning, but a couple of ladder tumbles and aging knees I need to change. 

I've decided to go with a portable/backpack unit to introduce water fed cleaning to upstairs, while retaining traditional on ground level. This will be a learning curve for me and my customers and keeping part traditional seems a good way to phase in, with safety, insurance and working at height laws to sell the transition to customers. I've talked to a few long term customers and they seem to understand, most wanting to keep traditional for lower levels. 

The majority being standard ground and 1st floor properties, about 4 needing tripple ladder work! My round is residential only, With the exception of a holiday park with some chalet work, but planning to stick with traditional for this.

Anyway the advise I'm looking for is on the setup.
My tap water is 270ppm with the local water board stating a calcium level of 110m/l.

1) anyone else using a backpack? What type do you recommend and do they last the day on battery life?

2) water systems. I'm currently researching the types of filter systems and hoping I can used a di only system. Do you think this is possible with a 270ppm tds reading? 
If so what type of vessel, resin is just baffling.
Am I right in thinking it's a simple case of tap water in, deionised water out? Do you need a pump? Is it a quick in/out process and would I be able to fill my barrels instantly?

Because it's going to be a replacement for ladder work and tops only I don't see too much water needed, estimating 6-8 25 litre barrels to last the day to start with. A friend of a friend takes out 8 for a days work with a backpack, I'm presuming for all windows.

I've seen a package from Windows cleaning warehouse with the beginners setup. Thoughts? 
https://windowcleaningwarehouse.co.uk/products/facelift®-bigboy-2-backpack-starter-kit-ultra-30ft?variant=30709875212357&currency=GBP&utm_campaign=gs-2019-09-19&utm_source=google&utm_medium=smart_campaign&gclid=Cj0KCQiAjfvwBRCkARIsAIqSWlNoIk5izC-xTSagrxsc0Roi88QLc8dIMQFFnOKRXUn-0IbdwjO94lgaAn0JEALw_wcB

 

I understand the Di unit will cost a bit more for the cartridge system, anyone used this? Should I just get a standard di vessel and resin?

Any help/advise would be appreciated. Cheers. 

I went from trad straight to a van mount. I sourced a 3 year old van and had Grippatank fit me a system on my driveway. All in all I spent just under 10k with the van, double di set up, Gardiner poles etc. And put everyone on WFP and apart from an handful who fired me off it was really well received. 

You can do it for less, but 3 years on it was the best investment I've made.

Good luck!

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Apw1210
On 15/01/2020 at 10:01, Jase2k2k said:

Hi all. Was hoping for some advice on introducing a water fed system into a traditional round. 
I've built the round over the last few years. A lot of my customers are wanting traditional cleaning, but a couple of ladder tumbles and aging knees I need to change. 

I've decided to go with a portable/backpack unit to introduce water fed cleaning to upstairs, while retaining traditional on ground level. This will be a learning curve for me and my customers and keeping part traditional seems a good way to phase in, with safety, insurance and working at height laws to sell the transition to customers. I've talked to a few long term customers and they seem to understand, most wanting to keep traditional for lower levels. 

The majority being standard ground and 1st floor properties, about 4 needing tripple ladder work! My round is residential only, With the exception of a holiday park with some chalet work, but planning to stick with traditional for this.

Anyway the advise I'm looking for is on the setup.
My tap water is 270ppm with the local water board stating a calcium level of 110m/l.

1) anyone else using a backpack? What type do you recommend and do they last the day on battery life?

2) water systems. I'm currently researching the types of filter systems and hoping I can used a di only system. Do you think this is possible with a 270ppm tds reading? 
If so what type of vessel, resin is just baffling.
Am I right in thinking it's a simple case of tap water in, deionised water out? Do you need a pump? Is it a quick in/out process and would I be able to fill my barrels instantly?

Because it's going to be a replacement for ladder work and tops only I don't see too much water needed, estimating 6-8 25 litre barrels to last the day to start with. A friend of a friend takes out 8 for a days work with a backpack, I'm presuming for all windows.

I've seen a package from Windows cleaning warehouse with the beginners setup. Thoughts? 
https://windowcleaningwarehouse.co.uk/products/facelift®-bigboy-2-backpack-starter-kit-ultra-30ft?variant=30709875212357&currency=GBP&utm_campaign=gs-2019-09-19&utm_source=google&utm_medium=smart_campaign&gclid=Cj0KCQiAjfvwBRCkARIsAIqSWlNoIk5izC-xTSagrxsc0Roi88QLc8dIMQFFnOKRXUn-0IbdwjO94lgaAn0JEALw_wcB

 

I understand the Di unit will cost a bit more for the cartridge system, anyone used this? Should I just get a standard di vessel and resin?

Any help/advise would be appreciated. Cheers. 

 

 

For me it was an easy choice 

 

I custom built my own pump trolley system 

 

I have a 1000L IBC within my garage which is paired with an Unger Hydropower DI vessel and two pre filters that are a 5 micron sediment and carbon block filter to aid the DI resins life span

 

The joy of the Unger Hydropower is easy portability so i can take it along to largee jobs and use the clients water supply at a pre arranged agreement 

 

You can buy a ready to use WFP kit from all good suppliers even Screwfix from approximately £399 upwards depending on pole construction and length 

 

Water storage is key in wfp as you never want to run out 

 

DI resin for my Hydropower lasts approximately 1010L 

 

4x new resin bags cost me approximately £109 

 

Hope that helps 

 

Kind regards 

Austin 

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