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Dirty dan

Advice needed for new RO system

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Dirty dan

I used to double di only and have just bought an RO system like this one. Trouble is that it doesn’t come with instructions for use. No videos online are helpful. Can anyone help me with instructions for use and maintenance  of these systems please? I’ve never used these before and obviously don’t want to damage it. I also need to flush it apparently too but don’t know what this means. Thanks

B17876E0-A548-4CFD-804F-E3D80618DDD9.png

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spruce
8 minutes ago, Dirty dan said:

I used to double di only and have just bought an RO system like this one. Trouble is that it doesn’t come with instructions for use. No videos online are helpful. Can anyone help me with instructions for use and maintenance  of these systems please? I’ve never used these before and obviously don’t want to damage it. I also need to flush it apparently too but don’t know what this means. Thanks

B17876E0-A548-4CFD-804F-E3D80618DDD9.png

If you have a look at this video it will help you with the basics.

 

It isn't the same r/o you have obviously but they work exactly the same. You have a booster pump which this r/o doesn't have. So you will transfer skills you learn from this video to your setup.

My advise is to watch this a few times and then I will add some more to this.

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spruce
Posted (edited)

 

To start with @Dirty dan, I presume that they have already installed the filters and membrane for you. You also need to check how much water your tap delivers in LPM at the r/o free flow. You really need around 9 lpm maximum to feed the beast although it will probably use less than that in service.

Lets start by tracing out the path of water flow through the system.

Your inlet from the main supply/tap will connect to the booster pump. From the booster pump it goes to the first filter which is a sediment filter. The second filter is a carbon block filter. Both of these filters protect the membrane. The sediment filter's job is obvious and the carbon block filter removes chlorine from the water as chlorine damages membranes.

The water then flows into the membrane housing. It travels through the membrane and out the other end where you have two outlet ports.

The first has a red gate valve. This is your waste water and goes to the drain. When you flush your membrane you open that tap completely.

When you produce water you partially close it. You must never completely close this valve as you need to have about 60% water going to waste whilst producing 40% pure. (I don't know how Bailey build their systems so I don't know if they modify this valve by drilling a small hole in the paddle of the valve to allow some water to escape to waste when the valve is fully closed. Purefreedom modify their valves this way. Others don't) This red gate valve is the key to producing water efficiently.

The second port is the pure which goes to the di vessel and then into the tank. I would uncouple the di vessel and run the r/o with the pure side going to the drain as well whilst you are flushing and then setting the ratios up as you saw in the video clip. I would set the ratios without the booster pump on and then tweak them with the booster switched on. It will also help you taking readings of the pure produced with your tds meter. Your best waste to pure ratio is when the tds of the pure is at its lowest.

To start with you need to flush the system. So you open the red gate valve and let the water flow to the drain. The booster pump must never be switched on when flushing.

One of the suppliers on here has recently stated that it can take him up to 6 hours to flush a membrane he supplies to get it to work efficiently. What ever the case, it does seem from other experience that it takes a while for the membrane to settle down.

 

Edited by spruce

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spruce

What I don't see is any provision to transfer the water produced to your van/containers @Dirty dan. How have they accounted for that?

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ched999uk

So my little 200gpd ro +di system arrived today. Flushed filters and then membrane all OK. My tap tds is 120 I'm not using resin yet but tds out of ro is 4 which I am pleased with. Tds from waste is about 70. I am guessing I either need a booster or to limit waste flow a bit. Flow rate out of waste is about 3 x pure. 

Pressure gauge not arrived yet but don't thing tap pressure is good.

At moment don't need to process much water so should I just throttle waste till waste tds is higher? 

Cheers

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Dirty dan

Very informative, really appreciate the help, thank you. I’ve had a look at the vid a couple of times, I’m sure it will sink in after a couple of runs. 😉 I’ve also managed to speak to the main dude at baileys and he’s said to video call him on Monday when I’ve fully set mine up to also guide me through it. He seems a good guy. 
I won’t be transferring the water as I’m having this van mounted. I’ve also order a pressure gauge as apparently this is how you tell the pre filters are on their way out, correct me if I’m wrong. How do I know if the membrane has been flushed enough and why and when should we flush them? Sorry for all the questions but I’m just really curious and if I’m told why we have to do it, it’ll sink in faster on how it works.

52FA80C0-87F2-4B49-A4FC-DAAF6C4112B3.jpeg

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spruce
Posted (edited)
10 minutes ago, Dirty dan said:

Very informative, really appreciate the help, thank you. I’ve had a look at the vid a couple of times, I’m sure it will sink in after a couple of runs. 😉 I’ve also managed to speak to the main dude at baileys and he’s said to video call him on Monday when I’ve fully set mine up to also guide me through it. He seems a good guy. 
I won’t be transferring the water as I’m having this van mounted. I’ve also order a pressure gauge as apparently this is how you tell the pre filters are on their way out, correct me if I’m wrong. How do I know if the membrane has been flushed enough and why and when should we flush them? Sorry for all the questions but I’m just really curious and if I’m told why we have to do it, it’ll sink in faster on how it works.

52FA80C0-87F2-4B49-A4FC-DAAF6C4112B3.jpeg

Sorry to have to say this but you have put a static system into your van.

If you look through the gallery on their website you will see the difference. IBC tanks are fine being transported on flat beds and curtainsider trailers when they are either full or empty. These tanks have no baffles so water sloshing around in a half full tank in a moving van isn't recommended.

The frame needs to be securely fitted and some form of baffling introduced at least. Do Bailey's know you are using this in a van?

 

 

Edited by spruce

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Dirty dan

It is secure, it’s bolted all the way around through the floor with spreader plates underneath, it’s the same tank I’ve been using for almost 2 years. It’s also fully baffled so I don’t feel any of the water sloshing about at all. 
I used to drive these tanks in those curtain siders you talk about for many years so I’m fully aware of how they behave

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Iron Giant
1 hour ago, ched999uk said:

So my little 200gpd ro +di system arrived today. Flushed filters and then membrane all OK. My tap tds is 120 I'm not using resin yet but tds out of ro is 4 which I am pleased with. Tds from waste is about 70. I am guessing I either need a booster or to limit waste flow a bit. Flow rate out of waste is about 3 x pure. 

Pressure gauge not arrived yet but don't thing tap pressure is good.

At moment don't need to process much water so should I just throttle waste till waste tds is higher? 

Cheers

If you have low water pressure you need a booster pump to boost production speed and improve the performance of your membranes, waste to pure ration should 2 to 1litre 

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spruce
Posted (edited)
13 hours ago, ched999uk said:

So my little 200gpd ro +di system arrived today. Flushed filters and then membrane all OK. My tap tds is 120 I'm not using resin yet but tds out of ro is 4 which I am pleased with. Tds from waste is about 70. I am guessing I either need a booster or to limit waste flow a bit. Flow rate out of waste is about 3 x pure. 

Pressure gauge not arrived yet but don't thing tap pressure is good.

At moment don't need to process much water so should I just throttle waste till waste tds is higher? 

Cheers

Ideally you would need to adjust the waste valve a little more until the tds of the pure is as low as possible.

You could reduce the water to waste so your ratio is around 60% waste to 40% pure and see how that works.

Whilst 4ppm is good I still believe you need to polish the remaining ppm off with resin to get it down to zero.

In low light I can see tiny white opaque spots on our lounge windows with 5ppm. A customer might not notice them but that to close for comfort for me. The highest I let my pure go to is 1ppm before I change resin.

Looking at the pure tds output your water pressure doesn't look too bad but tell us what it is when the test gauge arrives please.

Edited by spruce

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Dirty dan
On 30/07/2020 at 06:43, spruce said:

 

To start with @Dirty dan, I presume that they have already installed the filters and membrane for you. You also need to check how much water your tap delivers in LPM at the r/o free flow. You really need around 9 lpm maximum to feed the beast although it will probably use less than that in service.

Lets start by tracing out the path of water flow through the system.

Your inlet from the main supply/tap will connect to the booster pump. From the booster pump it goes to the first filter which is a sediment filter. The second filter is a carbon block filter. Both of these filters protect the membrane. The sediment filter's job is obvious and the carbon block filter removes chlorine from the water as chlorine damages membranes.

The water then flows into the membrane housing. It travels through the membrane and out the other end where you have two outlet ports.

The first has a red gate valve. This is your waste water and goes to the drain. When you flush your membrane you open that tap completely.

When you produce water you partially close it. You must never completely close this valve as you need to have about 60% water going to waste whilst producing 40% pure. (I don't know how Bailey build their systems so I don't know if they modify this valve by drilling a small hole in the paddle of the valve to allow some water to escape to waste when the valve is fully closed. Purefreedom modify their valves this way. Others don't) This red gate valve is the key to producing water efficiently.

The second port is the pure which goes to the di vessel and then into the tank. I would uncouple the di vessel and run the r/o with the pure side going to the drain as well whilst you are flushing and then setting the ratios up as you saw in the video clip. I would set the ratios without the booster pump on and then tweak them with the booster switched on. It will also help you taking readings of the pure produced with your tds meter. Your best waste to pure ratio is when the tds of the pure is at its lowest.

To start with you need to flush the system. So you open the red gate valve and let the water flow to the drain. The booster pump must never be switched on when flushing.

One of the suppliers on here has recently stated that it can take him up to 6 hours to flush a membrane he supplies to get it to work efficiently. What ever the case, it does seem from other experience that it takes a while for the membrane to settle down.

 

Well it’s been 5 hours now and I don’t see the TDS meter dropping at all, meter still showing 126 ppm, I’ll give it another Hour or two and see if it improves at all

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ched999uk
17 minutes ago, Dirty dan said:

Well it’s been 5 hours now and I don’t see the TDS meter dropping at all, meter still showing 126 ppm, I’ll give it another Hour or two and see if it improves at all

You are checking the tds from the pure out let from the membrane not the waste (gate valve pipe) aren't you?

I don't know what your starting tds is but mine is 120 and I setup my new little 150 gpd system and after the membrane I have 004 tds reading after flushing for an hour or so. That is with low pressure input not a pumped system! 

It's almost like they forgot to fit a membrane?

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Dirty dan
17 minutes ago, ched999uk said:

You are checking the tds from the pure out let from the membrane not the waste (gate valve pipe) aren't you?

I don't know what your starting tds is but mine is 120 and I setup my new little 150 gpd system and after the membrane I have 004 tds reading after flushing for an hour or so. That is with low pressure input not a pumped system! 

It's almost like they forgot to fit a membrane?

I’ve followed what spruce said

tap = 157ppm

after prefilters = 140

waste after membrane = 126

i thought I’d have to wait until the TDS reading went down to single digits before I had to connect up To di and also I needed to check TDS on drain before closing tap? 
 

what am I doing wrong? What am I looking for after flushing for the first time?

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ched999uk
Posted (edited)
7 minutes ago, Dirty dan said:

waste after membrane = 126

OK so that's waste but what tds are you getting out of the membrane output that you will eventually connect to the di (not the one with the gate valve on)? That is the tds that's critical and should be in very low numbers.

The waste will have tds as that's how part of how the membrane gets rid of the dissolved solids.

You should NEVER fully close the waste valve. You need to 'balance' the waste out vs the pure out to get least waste (to reduce your water bill) but to keep your pure tds as low as possible (to prolong life of DI).

Edited by ched999uk

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Dirty dan
1 minute ago, ched999uk said:

OK so that's waste but what tds are you getting out of the membrane output that you will eventually connect to the di (not the one with the gate valve on)? That is the tds that's critical and should be in very low numbers.

The waste will have tds as that's how part of how the membrane gets rid of the dissolved solids.

Ok, so it looks like I’ve wasted 6 hours of my life waiting for something that will never happen! 😬
 

After closing the red tap I’ve got 7 ppm through the good pipe. I’ve misunderstood spruce when he said to flush membrane until membrane settles down. 😩

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ched999uk
Posted (edited)
9 minutes ago, Dirty dan said:

After closing the red tap

Please don't close the red tap fully unless you know it has a hole in it. If waste can't flow out of the waste hose you will kill the membrane!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

007 isn't bad but I am sure others will tell you better if you should have a lower tds on the pure than me as I have only a little system that I recently set up so I don't have much experience at all. Just knowledge from here and elsewhere.

It's a learning process don't worry about the 6 hrs 🙂 you now know a little more.

 

As I said before 'You should NEVER fully close the waste valve. You need to 'balance' the waste out vs the pure out to get least waste (to reduce your water bill) but to keep your pure tds as low as possible (to prolong life of DI).

Edited by ched999uk

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Dirty dan
4 minutes ago, ched999uk said:

Please don't close the red tap fully unless you know it has a hole in it. If waste can't flow out of the waste hose you will kill the membrane!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

007 isn't bad but I am sure others will tell you better if you should have a lower tds on the pure than me as I have only a little system that I recently set up so I don't have much experience at all. Just knowledge from here and elsewhere.

It's a learning process don't worry about the 6 hrs 🙂 you now know a little more.

 

As I said before 'You should NEVER fully close the waste valve. You need to 'balance' the waste out vs the pure out to get least waste (to reduce your water bill) but to keep your pure tds as low as possible (to prolong life of DI).

I remember the guy from. Baileys did say I had to turn the tap from the “quarter past” position to “28 minutes past to produce pure which is what I’ve done.
 

thanks for the advice, it’s really saved me from my own stupidity! 👍😊

 

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spruce

The efficiency of the membrane is calculated by comparing the tap water tds to the pure tds the membrane has produced.

Ideally your efficiency or rejection rate should be between 97 and 99%. So if your tap water tds is 250ppm then your product water (pure after r/o) should be around 7 to 8ppm or lower.

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