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Planning a van layout - axle weights etc?


ched999uk

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Looking at different vans and options but I was wondering if there is any free design software that shows the load space with dimensions? 

I haven't bought a van yet so I can't just measure the interior. 

i.e. I am trying to see if a flat tank with a false floor above will give me more usable space. 

Also anyone know if axle loads for vans are listed anywhere - so I can calculate where would be best to locate the tank?

Thanks for any help.

 

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8 minutes ago, ched999uk said:

Looking at different vans and options but I was wondering if there is any free design software that shows the load space with dimensions? 

I haven't bought a van yet so I can't just measure the interior. 

i.e. I am trying to see if a flat tank with a false floor above will give me more usable space. 

Also anyone know if axle loads for vans are listed anywhere - so I can calculate where would be best to locate the tank?

Thanks for any help.

 

If you are looking at present vans in production you'll find vehicle chassis configurations weights and dimensions on manufacturers dealership website 

For example 19 plate Peugeot partner swb you find images and load bay dimensions 

Most vehicles are archived and available on line 

1 minute ago, Apw1210 said:

If you are looking at present vans in production you'll find vehicle chassis configurations weights and dimensions on manufacturers dealership website 

For example 19 plate Peugeot partner swb you find images and load bay dimensions 

Most vehicles are archived and available on line 

5 seconds to find 

https://www.parkers.co.uk/vans-pickups/peugeot/partner/2008-dimensions/

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Cheers, I had seen the basic dimensions on 3rd party sites but manufacturers are poor at details. Maybe they are in the brochure but it will be more like the parkers link you posted that will be a van in my budget 🙂

There seems to be a lot of design software out there for campervan conversions maybe that's a starting point.

The real difficult bit seems to be axle weights which is quite important to correctly install a tank. 

Trying to plan for future and get smallest van that has enough load capacity and can fit possible future kit in.  Plus needs to have 3 seats.

I guess I am looking for a tardis 🙂 

Cheers

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Best off to fit your tank just behind the bulk head. Lengthways if it’s an upright or you can go sideways if it’s a flat. 

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15 minutes ago, ched999uk said:

Cheers, I had seen the basic dimensions on 3rd party sites but manufacturers are poor at details. Maybe they are in the brochure but it will be more like the parkers link you posted that will be a van in my budget 🙂

There seems to be a lot of design software out there for campervan conversions maybe that's a starting point.

The real difficult bit seems to be axle weights which is quite important to correctly install a tank. 

Trying to plan for future and get smallest van that has enough load capacity and can fit possible future kit in.  Plus needs to have 3 seats.

I guess I am looking for a tardis 🙂 

Cheers

With any van you can find an illustrated load bay image 

Nearly every van installation has a tank centre of axles and plus or minis a few feet or inches behind the bulkhead 

If you are wishing to virtually configure a load installation find the van you like online, Download or save an image of the floor plan.

Google search for example 350L baffled layflat or tall tank and save the image 

Then use a free online photo shop style editing software or Microsoft publisher and upload the van image then drag and drop the images onto the van floor plan. 

Or just search Google for window cleaning van installations.

Everyone thats a window cleaning has an installation of a tank which is pretty near identical due to axle weights and layout.

Axle weight information is out there. Just need to search for the vehicle you want.

If you want any design help I'll happily help.

I have 20 years experience with photoshop and mechanical installations 

 

Polish_20201010_191501113.jpg

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16 minutes ago, Cleanco said:

Best off to fit your tank just behind the bulk head. Lengthways if it’s an upright or you can go sideways if it’s a flat. 

To be honest to fit a tank just behind the bulkhead can easily overload the front axle. I realise that is what 'most' people do but there are a lot of people who just strap a tank down as well!!! 

When we are talking about 500Kg plus tank, plus frame it really should be installed in the correct location.

Installing a tank too far forward overloads the front axle and pushes the balance too far forward for brakes to work at their best. Too far back and you take weight off the front, again so brakes are not working correctly.

I know I am a bit OTT about this sort of stuff but I was trained as an engineer. I like to try and plan things out properly to make them as safe as reasonably possible. 

If you look at some of the crash tested systems that have been installed by the manufacturers most are not up against the bulkhead. There is a reason for that!

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6 minutes ago, ched999uk said:

To be honest to fit a tank just behind the bulkhead can easily overload the front axle. I realise that is what 'most' people do but there are a lot of people who just strap a tank down as well!!! 

When we are talking about 500Kg plus tank, plus frame it really should be installed in the correct location.

Installing a tank too far forward overloads the front axle and pushes the balance too far forward for brakes to work at their best. Too far back and you take weight off the front, again so brakes are not working correctly.

I know I am a bit OTT about this sort of stuff but I was trained as an engineer. I like to try and plan things out properly to make them as safe as reasonably possible. 

If you look at some of the crash tested systems that have been installed by the manufacturers most are not up against the bulkhead. There is a reason for that!

Yes most installed framed tanks are further back from the bulkhead as you've mentioned because the projected axle centres and centre of gravity determines the point of install hence why you see 600L tanks with gutter vacs and ladders behind the bulkhead 

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18 minutes ago, Apw1210 said:

With any van you can find an illustrated load bay image 

Nearly every van installation has a tank centre of axles and plus or minis a few feet or inches behind the bulkhead 

If you are wishing to virtually configure a load installation find the van you like online, Download or save an image of the floor plan.

Google search for example 350L baffled layflat or tall tank and save the image 

Then use a free online photo shop style editing software or Microsoft publisher and upload the van image then drag and drop the images onto the van floor plan. 

Or just search Google for window cleaning van installations.

Everyone thats a window cleaning has an installation of a tank which is pretty near identical due to axle weights and layout.

Axle weight information is out there. Just need to search for the vehicle you want.

If you want any design help I'll happily help.

 have 20 years experience with photoshop and mechanical installations 

 

 

Cheers. 

Axle weights - maybe I am using incorrect terminology. The vehicle weight and max weight giving load capacity is very easy to find as you say.

What I was looking for was the actual weight of the front of a vehicle say drive front onto a weigh bridge. Then the weight of the rear, again by weighing the rear of the vehicle on a weighbridge.

I was trying to calculate the position of a tank making sure not to overload an axle - I don't really know how big an issue? I have seen quite a few installations on ebay - Bailey systems where there is a decent space between the tank and bulkhead. This space would be perfect for gutter vac or pressure washer. I have no idea if Bailey install tanks correctly or not.

Cheers for your help it's much appreciated. I am reasonable good at cad and image editing stuff but thanks for the offer. I have a 3d printer and have designed quite a few bits and bobs using OpenSCAD, FreeCad, TinkerCad etc and use image tools like PaintShop Pro (I know it's old but I have been using it for years 🙂 ), Fireworks, gimp etc....

Again thanks for your help.

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5 minutes ago, ched999uk said:

Cheers. 

Axle weights - maybe I am using incorrect terminology. The vehicle weight and max weight giving load capacity is very easy to find as you say.

What I was looking for was the actual weight of the front of a vehicle say drive front onto a weigh bridge. Then the weight of the rear, again by weighing the rear of the vehicle on a weighbridge.

I was trying to calculate the position of a tank making sure not to overload an axle - I don't really know how big an issue? I have seen quite a few installations on ebay - Bailey systems where there is a decent space between the tank and bulkhead. This space would be perfect for gutter vac or pressure washer. I have no idea if Bailey install tanks correctly or not.

Cheers for your help it's much appreciated. I am reasonable good at cad and image editing stuff but thanks for the offer. I have a 3d printer and have designed quite a few bits and bobs using OpenSCAD, FreeCad, TinkerCad etc and use image tools like PaintShop Pro (I know it's old but I have been using it for years 🙂 ), Fireworks, gimp etc....

Again thanks for your help.

I know exactly what you mean. I did once find laden weights and actual over axle weights somewhere 

A vast amount of vehicles do appear to have tanks mounted axle dead centre regardless of front axle loading 

Transit Custom .jpg

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6 minutes ago, Apw1210 said:

I know exactly what you mean. I did once find laden weights and actual over axle weights somewhere 

A vast amount of vehicles do appear to have tanks mounted axle dead centre regardless of front axle loading 

Transit Custom .jpg

Heres an example of a Ford Transit swb 2008 plate medium roof 

20201010_201032.jpg

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If it’s any help, I have a Merc Vito, long base. 650 flat Wyedale tank against the bulkhead. Strapped down to the load rings with lorry ratchet-straps. False floor on top of tank for side reel and pole. I can't fault it. The driving and handling are first class. As is the reliability and usability. It's the perfect setup for a two man team. The inventory of kit we carry is astonishing. Every piece of equipment gets used and has earned us money. Some is used daily, some frequently, some rarely.

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Just found Peugeot Partner plated axle weights for a 2018 van on Peugeot Ireland site:

https://media.peugeot.ie/file/39/1/partner-spec-sheet.91391.pdf

So I will have a play with that and see how a vertical and horizontal tank would mount.

Cheers

Sugar they are Max plated axle weights not actual..... Search goes on...

Edited by ched999uk
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58 minutes ago, ched999uk said:

Just found Peugeot Partner plated axle weights for a 2018 van on Peugeot Ireland site:

https://media.peugeot.ie/file/39/1/partner-spec-sheet.91391.pdf

So I will have a play with that and see how a vertical and horizontal tank would mount.

Cheers

Sugar they are Max plated axle weights not actual..... Search goes on...

Peugeot partners aren't bad. I had a 16 plate with only a 210L flat tank mount on a skid style frame i fabricated which bolted down onto all six floor anchor points by removing the cheap D rings. 

@ched999ukI wouldn't start frying your brain over all these weights an axle calculations. The biggest tank you can fit technically in a Peugeot partner is a 350L tank anyway. And that would be frame mounted 11 inched off the bulkhead . That allows you space to learn in with a socket set to bolt it down. 

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Finally found axle weights of 2014 Peugeot Partner L1 850kg SE or Pro model.

Here are numbers if anyone is interested.

Unladen Front axle  880kg  max additional load = 230kg
Max plated front    1110kg
Unladen Rear Axle 565kg max additional load = 665kg
Max plated rear 1230kg
wheelbase 2728mm

Say a 350lt tank + frame = 400kg

So the equation I found basically is

(Distance of load from front axle/wheelbase) x weight = effect on rear axle

(diff in effect weight vs actual weight = front axle load)

Looking at diagrams It looks like a vertical tank mounted up against bulkhead is about 2011mm from front axle.

So (2011/2728)x400 = 294kg load on rear axle therefore 106kg on front axle.

If the center or the tank was directly over rear axle:

(2728/2728)x400 = 400kg load on rear axle therefore 0kg on front axle.

I thought I should check with 2 x 100kg people in front: (front seats 1615mm from front axle)

(1615/2728) x 200 = 118kg load on rear axle therefore 82kg on front axle.

So even with 400kg tank behind bulkhead and 2 x 100kg people in front 

rear axle load = 412kg and front axle load = 188kg 

So both well within axle limits. 

So basically with a 850 L1 peugeot partner you can fit a 350lt tank where ever you want 🙂 

 

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9 minutes ago, ched999uk said:

Finally found axle weights of 2014 Peugeot Partner L1 850kg SE or Pro model.

Here are numbers if anyone is interested.

Unladen Front axle  880kg  max additional load = 230kg
Max plated front    1110kg
Unladen Rear Axle 565kg max additional load = 665kg
Max plated rear 1230kg
wheelbase 2728mm

Say a 350lt tank + frame = 400kg

So the equation I found basically is

(Distance of load from front axle/wheelbase) x weight = effect on rear axle

(diff in effect weight vs actual weight = front axle load)

Looking at diagrams It looks like a vertical tank mounted up against bulkhead is about 2011mm from front axle.

So (2011/2728)x400 = 294kg load on rear axle therefore 106kg on front axle.

If the center or the tank was directly over rear axle:

(2728/2728)x400 = 400kg load on rear axle therefore 0kg on front axle.

I thought I should check with 2 x 100kg people in front: (front seats 1615mm from front axle)

(1615/2728) x 200 = 118kg load on rear axle therefore 82kg on front axle.

So even with 400kg tank behind bulkhead and 2 x 100kg people in front 

rear axle load = 412kg and front axle load = 188kg 

So both well within axle limits. 

So basically with a 850 L1 peugeot partner you can fit a 350lt tank where ever you want 🙂 

 

Mr Science, I told you that a 350L would work. 

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11 hours ago, ched999uk said:

To be honest to fit a tank just behind the bulkhead can easily overload the front axle. I realise that is what 'most' people do but there are a lot of people who just strap a tank down as well!!! 

When we are talking about 500Kg plus tank, plus frame it really should be installed in the correct location.

Installing a tank too far forward overloads the front axle and pushes the balance too far forward for brakes to work at their best. Too far back and you take weight off the front, again so brakes are not working correctly.

I know I am a bit OTT about this sort of stuff but I was trained as an engineer. I like to try and plan things out properly to make them as safe as reasonably possible. 

If you look at some of the crash tested systems that have been installed by the manufacturers most are not up against the bulkhead. There is a reason for that!

That’s why I said lengthways if it’s an upright as all the weight is concentrate in a small area. If your worried about overloading then but an adequate van for your tank rather than trying to squeeze a big tank into the smallest van possible. 

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