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What to pay our sub-contractor to do our extra jobs like pressure washing?


Mr and Mrs window cleaner

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Mr and Mrs window cleaner

Hi all, 

We are a window cleaning company with great demand for extra jobs like power washing where we can take around £250 for a 6 hour job, but this can change per day.  We want to get a self-employed sub-contractor in to do this extra work one or two days per week initially, as my husband doesn't have capacity to do it on top of his window cleaning.  If things go well, we will advertise for more work for the sub-contractor. 

We know what to do legally and contract wise, but want advice on how to structure their pay.  

We are considering: 

1. A share of earnings, maybe 40-50% of money earned (as what we earn per day varies); or

2. A fixed day rate.

Does anyone have any experience on the best option?

Many thanks, 

Jo

Edited by Mr and Mrs window cleaner
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10 minutes ago, Mr and Mrs window cleaner said:

We plan to provide the van, equipment, van insurance, petrol, employers liability and associated costs, so they would just turn up and get paid. 

Sounds like you're employing them, be very careful how you go forward.  

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11 minutes ago, Mr and Mrs window cleaner said:

We know what to do legally and contract wise, but want advice on how to structure their pay.  We plan to provide the van, equipment, van insurance, petrol, employers liability and associated costs, so they would just turn up and get paid.  

We are considering: 

  1. A share of earnings, maybe 40-50% of money earned (as what we earn per day varies); or
  2. A fixed salary

Does anyone have any experience on the best option?

Many thanks, 

Jo

I am no accountant or tax expert but from what you said above if you provide work, and equipment etc then it's not a self employed job it is employed! 

From https://www.gov.uk/employment-status/selfemployed-contractor

Quote:

Someone is probably self-employed and shouldn’t be paid through PAYE if most of the following are true:

they’re in business for themselves, are responsible for the success or failure of their business and can make a loss or a profit

they can decide what work they do and when, where or how to do it

they can hire someone else to do the work

they’re responsible for fixing any unsatisfactory work in their own time

their employer agrees a fixed price for their work - it doesn’t depend on how long the job takes to finish

they use their own money to buy business assets, cover running costs, and provide tools and equipment for their work

they can work for more than one client

To be safe consult a decent accountant and tell them what you are considering as self employed!

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Mr and Mrs window cleaner
8 minutes ago, Part Timer said:

Sounds like you're employing them, be very careful how you go forward.  

Thanks, ok I take that on board, I'll talk to my accountant on that.  I still just want to know what the rate should be for self-employed. Do you know?

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Mr and Mrs window cleaner
5 minutes ago, ched999uk said:

I am no accountant or tax expert but from what you said above if you provide work, and equipment etc then it's not a self employed job it is employed! 

From https://www.gov.uk/employment-status/selfemployed-contractor

Quote:

Someone is probably self-employed and shouldn’t be paid through PAYE if most of the following are true:

they’re in business for themselves, are responsible for the success or failure of their business and can make a loss or a profit

they can decide what work they do and when, where or how to do it

they can hire someone else to do the work

they’re responsible for fixing any unsatisfactory work in their own time

their employer agrees a fixed price for their work - it doesn’t depend on how long the job takes to finish

they use their own money to buy business assets, cover running costs, and provide tools and equipment for their work

they can work for more than one client

To be safe consult a decent accountant and tell them what you are considering as self employed!

Thanks, ok I take that on board, I'll talk to my accountant on that.  I still just want to know what the rate should be for self-employed. Do you know?

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9 minutes ago, Mr and Mrs window cleaner said:

Thanks, ok I take that on board, I'll talk to my accountant on that.  I still just want to know what the rate should be for self-employed. Do you know?

I don't know what the pay rates are in your area so all I would do is work on a profit margin, if they want £200 for the job I'd put £100 on top. I would also set up another company to do it as if you're not VAT registered you will be if this picks up. If you are your new business can have the advantage, initially, of not having to put VAT on the jobs.

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Seeing where you are in the country I think £250 for 6 hours pressure washing isn’t good money surely ??? Is that the total price of the job or what you are looking to pay  a sub contractor ?. We would be in the region of £450 -600 of that time scale depending what the job is , dont want to be negative but don’t  think many would want to work for £250 especially if you are taking a cut out of that . 

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Mr and Mrs window cleaner
On 16/10/2020 at 18:22, Pjj said:

Seeing where you are in the country I think £250 for 6 hours pressure washing isn’t good money surely ??? Is that the total price of the job or what you are looking to pay  a sub contractor ?. We would be in the region of £450 -600 of that time scale depending what the job is , dont want to be negative but don’t  think many would want to work for £250 especially if you are taking a cut out of that . 

OK, perhaps I've used the wrong term. It's not someone who already does it, is skilled at it and has their own equipment.  We're looking for a labourer to sub-contract the work out to.  Typical day rates for that type of work around here is about £50-60 per day. 

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2 minutes ago, Mr and Mrs window cleaner said:

OK, perhaps I've used the wrong term. It's not someone who already does it, is skilled at it and has their own equipment.  We're looking for a labourer to sub-contract the work out to.  Typical day rates for that type of work around here is about £50-60 per day. 

Then unfortunately you won't be sub-contracting and will need to employ through PAYE and can pay what you want above minimum wage, but remember pay peanuts, get monkeys.... 

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26 minutes ago, Mr and Mrs window cleaner said:

OK, perhaps I've used the wrong term. It's not someone who already does it, is skilled at it and has their own equipment.  We're looking for a labourer to sub-contract the work out to.  Typical day rates for that type of work around here is about £50-60 per day. 

So you will be employing them ? You will need employers liability insurance, paye, pension and holiday pay as well , I doubt it would be financially viable for you , I would recommend you get advice from an accountant or phone HMRC and talk them through what you are trying to do and they will explain what you need to put in place , ime very suprised  that labourers are paid such a low wage ,they would be on considerably more than that what’s I am , I have friends in your area that are paid almost double that per day for doing unskilled work , all the best with your new venture . 

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7 hours ago, Mr and Mrs window cleaner said:

OK, perhaps I've used the wrong term. It's not someone who already does it, is skilled at it and has their own equipment.  We're looking for a labourer to sub-contract the work out to.  Typical day rates for that type of work around here is about £50-60 per day. 

Is about minimum wage for someone over 25 years old at £8.72ph no one is going to work for less than that, seems like you want someone on a zero hours contract to do ad-hoc jobs, pressure washing like window cleaning ain't rocket science but a job needs to be done properly without the risk of causing damage to a customers property and making an absolute mess of a job.

Edited by Iron Giant
grammar
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scottish cleaning service

If someone was paying me £50 to £60 a day then I wouldn't work that hard and it would probably be a zero day contract. All that will happen is folk would work one day and not come back. First rule in business is to respect your staff or you won't have any, history tells me this. While on the subject of human behaviour, I'm nearly finished a great book called "Mindset" by Carol S. Dweck.

Well worth reading if you want your business to grow. 😉

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Mr and Mrs window cleaner
15 hours ago, Iron Giant said:

Is about minimum wage for someone over 25 years old at £8.72ph no one is going to work for less than that, seems like you want someone on a zero hours contract to do ad-hoc jobs, pressure washing like window cleaning ain't rocket science but a job needs to be done properly without the risk of causing damage to a customers property and making an absolute mess of a job.

Thanks @Iron Giant, yes that's what we need, someone for adhoc jobs that are building up. It seems silly not to try and monetise the extra work that's building up but we don't have enough time to deliver with existing resource. 

In this instance, how would you structure it?

 

14 hours ago, scottish cleaning service said:

If someone was paying me £50 to £60 a day then I wouldn't work that hard and it would probably be a zero day contract. All that will happen is folk would work one day and not come back. First rule in business is to respect your staff or you won't have any, history tells me this. While on the subject of human behaviour, I'm nearly finished a great book called "Mindset" by Carol S. Dweck.

Well worth reading if you want your business to grow. 😉

Yes I get that but how would you structure it? We've too much work with existing resource and it seems foolish not to try to monetise it, but what we pay has to leave enough profit at the end to make it worth the effort. 

 

Edited by Mr and Mrs window cleaner
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The weather is horrendous today so stuck in the van, think I'm going to throw in my tuppence worth 🙃 

Think the key quote for me from above is pay peanuts, get monkeys. If you want to pay £50-60 and cut corners in terms of employing, its your choice, but as said above there will be little obligation on the "contractor" to do a good job. You could luck out and get someone genuinely out of work who does a good job in the hope it leads to more regular work. But the amount of people around who are willing to work hard for a non living wage I imagine is very small. 

Another option going forward would be to train up and employ for the window cleaning round then your husband could do the add on jobs till there's enough to employ for them instead/as well. 

Investments cost in the short term but the pay off is in the future.

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6 hours ago, Mr and Mrs window cleaner said:

Thanks @Iron Giant, yes that's what we need, someone for adhoc jobs that are building up. It seems silly not to try and monetise the extra work that's building up but we don't have enough time to deliver with existing resource. 

Sorry, but I don't think you know what you need or want just re-read your own replies as they change every time, no person in their right mind who runs a fledgling business will work for £50-60 a day for a 6hr day when they can make that in 1-2hrs cleaning windows for example. 

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7 hours ago, Mr and Mrs window cleaner said:

Thanks @Iron Giant, yes that's what we need, someone for adhoc jobs that are building up. It seems silly not to try and monetise the extra work that's building up but we don't have enough time to deliver with existing resource. 

In this instance, how would you structure it?

 

Yes I get that but how would you structure it? We've too much work with existing resource and it seems foolish not to try to monetise it, but what we pay has to leave enough profit at the end to make it worth the effort. 

 

You find a local pressure washing company and pass the work to them to go and quote it with a kickback to you  of 50 quid if they get it.

That is what I do with big jobs as I don't have the time.

Money in your pocket and theirs.

 

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Cghwindowcleaning

I don't do pressure washing but from experience with subbing work out the average rate is between 55 - 80%  for the subcontractor.Meaning you take 45-20% it all depends how good they are and how much you need them.

I'm from Hertfordshire like you and I wouldn't be able to find anyone even slightly decent and presentable for £50 a day capable of doing a decent job on there own.

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On 19/10/2020 at 11:31, Mr and Mrs window cleaner said:

OK, perhaps I've used the wrong term. It's not someone who already does it, is skilled at it and has their own equipment.  We're looking for a labourer to sub-contract the work out to.  Typical day rates for that type of work around here is about £50-60 per day. 

An 8 hr day on minimum wage would be £89.72.. how you will get someone to graft for 60 quid beats me.. I'm in stevenage up the road from you and would pay a lot more than that for a grafter for the day.

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On 20/10/2020 at 10:02, Mr and Mrs window cleaner said:

Thanks @Iron Giant, yes that's what we need, someone for adhoc jobs that are building up. It seems silly not to try and monetise the extra work that's building up but we don't have enough time to deliver with existing resource. 

In this instance, how would you structure it?

Your options are fairly simple, you can't "sub contract" this work when you supply everything, so you either employ someone or you find a "newbie" that has their own work, equipment and van, and work on a profit margin. Please don't try and find a newbie that's desperate for work and will cut corners to try and justify a low price. With social media you will soon lose your name and reputation by doing so. If it doesn't work just walk away. Creating headaches, by being cheapskates, isn't a good long term business plan.

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10 hours ago, Dave B said:

An 8 hr day on minimum wage would be £89.72.. how you will get someone to graft for 60 quid beats me.. I'm in stevenage up the road from you and would pay a lot more than that for a grafter for the day.

 

 

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