Auto RO System Query

Hi all.

were looking to buy a new RO system with the intention to increase output, reduce waste to pure and automate the process.

I currently run a single hf5 4040 and produce around 60-75L per hour using only mains pressure of around 35-40. The waste to pure is around 1:1.

ionics have systems and vyair do an automated plc controlled unit too. Prices range from 2k for vyair plc controlled into up to around 5-6k with ionic  

im interested in anyone’s experience of using a Boosted pressure system and how you found waste to pure and production speed with an input TDS of around 300ish

my main motivation was reduce time and effort and cost but it seems these system put out similar waste to pure so only really speeding up production and making it more convenient.

also, has anyone any experience of typical differences in production efficiency of before and after using a softener?

i am contemplating having an automated softener installed of the roi is positive  

ive a budget up to approx 6k so most stuff is possible but don’t want to spend much more for only an incremental benefit or I could just buy 2 more hf5s for and run parallel for less than 1k and increase production while maintaining waste to pure at current state. Id just have to continue turning tap on and flushing which is a bit of a pain now.

(luxury problem imo buy anyway)
 

thanks in advance. 

Omega said:

Hi all.

were looking to buy a new RO system with the intention to increase output, reduce waste to pure and automate the process.

I currently run a single hf5 4040 and produce around 60-75L per hour using only mains pressure of around 35-40. The waste to pure is around 1:1.

ionics have systems and vyair do an automated plc controlled unit too. Prices range from 2k for vyair plc controlled into up to around 5-6k with ionic  

im interested in anyone’s experience of using a Boosted pressure system and how you found waste to pure and production speed with an input TDS of around 300ish

my main motivation was reduce time and effort and cost but it seems these system put out similar waste to pure so only really speeding up production and making it more convenient.

also, has anyone any experience of typical differences in production efficiency of before and after using a softener?

i am contemplating having an automated softener installed of the roi is positive  

ive a budget up to approx 6k so most stuff is possible but don’t want to spend much more for only an incremental benefit or I could just buy 2 more hf5s for and run parallel for less than 1k and increase production while maintaining waste to pure at current state. Id just have to continue turning tap on and flushing which is a bit of a pain now.

(luxury problem imo buy anyway)
 

thanks in advance. 

Click to expand...

@doug atkinsonis the man that can 

Omega said:

Hi all.

were looking to buy a new RO system with the intention to increase output, reduce waste to pure and automate the process.

I currently run a single hf5 4040 and produce around 60-75L per hour using only mains pressure of around 35-40. The waste to pure is around 1:1.

ionics have systems and vyair do an automated plc controlled unit too. Prices range from 2k for vyair plc controlled into up to around 5-6k with ionic  

im interested in anyone’s experience of using a Boosted pressure system and how you found waste to pure and production speed with an input TDS of around 300ish

my main motivation was reduce time and effort and cost but it seems these system put out similar waste to pure so only really speeding up production and making it more convenient.

also, has anyone any experience of typical differences in production efficiency of before and after using a softener?

i am contemplating having an automated softener installed of the roi is positive  

ive a budget up to approx 6k so most stuff is possible but don’t want to spend much more for only an incremental benefit or I could just buy 2 more hf5s for and run parallel for less than 1k and increase production while maintaining waste to pure at current state. Id just have to continue turning tap on and flushing which is a bit of a pain now.

(luxury problem imo buy anyway)
 

thanks in advance. 

Click to expand...

@doug atkinson has a booster pump that produces 400l an hour at a 60/40 waste to pure.

I have a PF 40/40 van mount that is boosted that produces between 200 and 250 litres an hour with something close to 50/50. On a good day my TDS is 300, Sunday was 400. Never used a softener so can't comment on the ins and outs of this.

The price you're talking about seems well ott

We have a Grippatank 800 ltr per hour booster pump on our vans but only have TDS of around 80-90 so don’t dump as much as most , we produce 1000 ltr of pure in 2 hours , we have twin ros , give Oliver a ring and have a chat he’s very helpful @GrippaTANK, I would thoroughly recommend there booster set up . 

Cheers for the posts..

The cost element is mainly with the ionic system. They are mounted on a stainless frame and they have their own 30inch  housings for pre-filters and RO. The systems are fully automated so you just leave them and they flush, turn on and off and then always bathe the RO is pure once done. This is where the cost comes in. If you upgrade to stainless housings you can run higher pressure.

The vyair system for 2k is a basic boosted RO system but is fully computer controlled. Same as ionic, more or less, but no RO bathing.

If I can reduce the waste enough the cost is irrelevant because I will recover over time from water savings. We do a lot of cleaning and so are using more and more water and will need enough production to supply 5-6 vans as of next year.

Hopefully someone has direct experience of the real world effects of using a softener. They seem to be the tricky part of the setup from discussing with some RO systems suppliers so far when referring to automated softeners as opposed to ones you manually backwash with salt.

Just getting a booster pump will help massively. You are producing a little over 1 litre per min at the moment which is painfully SLOW. Boosted to 55/60 PSI would more than double nearly triple production. Should then be around 3 litre per min. I know this isn’t going to make it automated but it’s a massive increase in production. 

Omega said:

Cheers for the posts..

The cost element is mainly with the ionic system. They are mounted on a stainless frame and they have their own 30inch  housings for pre-filters and RO. The systems are fully automated so you just leave them and they flush, turn on and off and then always bathe the RO is pure once done. This is where the cost comes in. If you upgrade to stainless housings you can run higher pressure.

The vyair system for 2k is a basic boosted RO system but is fully computer controlled. Same as ionic, more or less, but no RO bathing.

If I can reduce the waste enough the cost is irrelevant because I will recover over time from water savings. We do a lot of cleaning and so are using more and more water and will need enough production to supply 5-6 vans as of next year.

Hopefully someone has direct experience of the real world effects of using a softener. They seem to be the tricky part of the setup from discussing with some RO systems suppliers so far when referring to automated softeners as opposed to ones you manually backwash with salt.

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Sounds like pure overkill to me, what's "R/O bathing" sounds like a ironics made up phrase to justify there vastly overpriced equipment and systems 

Iron Giant said:

Sounds like pure overkill to me, what's "R/O bathing" sounds like a ironics made up phrase to justify there vastly overpriced equipment and systems 

Click to expand...

This is what it is:

ROMS – Reverse Osmosis Maintenance System. At the end of each tank fill, pure water is diverted to the RO membrane housing. Leaving the RO membrane bathing in pure water between fills ensures that dissolved solids (found in tap water) do not foul the membrane. Further, dissolved solids that are not removed from the membrane surface during Periodic Auto Flush cycles are absorbed by the pure water during the ‘rest period’ to be flushed away during the first flush on startup.

The fact they have other features that some providers do not, The RO bathing may or may not offer significant real world improvement but it doesn't appear that anyone has the technical knowledge to substantiate or deny what they are saying. Until we know, surely it would be more respectful to come from a more open or reserved angle. They offer their units on stainless frames which whether people agree or not, to me is worth a lot more in itself.

I've seen so many steel units for tanks and other RO units that look awful in a few years or need replacement due to rust. That says to me that the system is more built for longevity. When owning something like this for years the price variance is not much different to real world cost over a period of years.

I'm all for Ionics systems if I'm honest. I think that their input into our industry has paved the early foundations for us to do what we do and I'm quite grateful for that. If you don't know the story of their origins, it's worth taking a look.

Plus Patrick there is a star chap. Good knowledge. It's good to be able to call and speak to someone who knows technical stuff.

Omega said:

This is what it is:

ROMS – Reverse Osmosis Maintenance System. At the end of each tank fill, pure water is diverted to the RO membrane housing. Leaving the RO membrane bathing in pure water between fills ensures that dissolved solids (found in tap water) do not foul the membrane. Further, dissolved solids that are not removed from the membrane surface during Periodic Auto Flush cycles are absorbed by the pure water during the ‘rest period’ to be flushed away during the first flush on startup.

The fact they have other features that some providers do not, The RO bathing may or may not offer significant real world improvement but it doesn't appear that anyone has the technical knowledge to substantiate or deny what they are saying. Until we know, surely it would be more respectful to come from a more open or reserved angle. They offer their units on stainless frames which whether people agree or not, to me is worth a lot more in itself.

I've seen so many steel units for tanks and other RO units that look awful in a few years or need replacement due to rust. That says to me that the system is more built for longevity. When owning something like this for years the price variance is not much different to real world cost over a period of years.

I'm all for Ionics systems if I'm honest. I think that their input into our industry has paved the early foundations for us to do what we do and I'm quite grateful for that. If you don't know the story of their origins, it's worth taking a look.

Plus Patrick there is a star chap. Good knowledge. It's good to be able to call and speak to someone who knows technical stuff.

Click to expand...

Next year it will be hot water and epsom salts for 30 minutes on a Friday ? , I can fully appreciate your need for greater automation with 5-6 vans it will no doubt reduce time overall with auto flush and hopefully remove a headache and have a simple at a glance data so you know how production is performing and so on. 

Also no doubt a quality stainless steel frame will stand the test of time, I think a lot of windys simple abuse their systems and vans and fail to maintain things as ensuring a routine of keeping a van as dry as can be after spillages and performing visual checks and carrying out what jobs are needed as and when, of course a stainless steel frame eliminates some of the afore mentioned.

Omega said:

This is what it is:

ROMS – Reverse Osmosis Maintenance System. At the end of each tank fill, pure water is diverted to the RO membrane housing. Leaving the RO membrane bathing in pure water between fills ensures that dissolved solids (found in tap water) do not foul the membrane. Further, dissolved solids that are not removed from the membrane surface during Periodic Auto Flush cycles are absorbed by the pure water during the ‘rest period’ to be flushed away during the first flush on startup.

The fact they have other features that some providers do not, The RO bathing may or may not offer significant real world improvement but it doesn't appear that anyone has the technical knowledge to substantiate or deny what they are saying. Until we know, surely it would be more respectful to come from a more open or reserved angle. They offer their units on stainless frames which whether people agree or not, to me is worth a lot more in itself.

I've seen so many steel units for tanks and other RO units that look awful in a few years or need replacement due to rust. That says to me that the system is more built for longevity. When owning something like this for years the price variance is not much different to real world cost over a period of years.

I'm all for Ionics systems if I'm honest. I think that their input into our industry has paved the early foundations for us to do what we do and I'm quite grateful for that. If you don't know the story of their origins, it's worth taking a look.

Plus Patrick there is a star chap. Good knowledge. It's good to be able to call and speak to someone who knows technical stuff.

Click to expand...

You're singing the praise of Ionics and a certain staff member; price is no object and you are all for Ionics if you are honest. Then I don't understand why you just don't buy what you want from them. After all, you are grateful (which includes all of us as well) for their input into our industry. 

We had a certain user who bought a diesel heater from them recently and he had had the unit back on numerous occasions under warranty. As Ionics was unable to find the fault, he was on here asking for suggestions as to why his heater was cutting out.

So this owner might not agree with your advice that a certain staff member really knows his stuff. Either he is new or they didn't consult him.

Have you seen the price of the replacement 30” RO Membrane. If you are wishing to reduce waste which can be done then your output ppm will increase. Which increased costs in resin.

The Controllers they use are Spring Controllers which do the job efficiently but I still have to measure their performance. I do have one in stock.

I do have a booster pump which will do around 380 litres an hour but I’m learning new things each time. If set incorrectly can do harm to the membrane and pump so trying to find a way to eliminate this.

You can have a powerful RO system but ordinary piping is too small. You would have to increase the pipe size diameter from your mains supply.

Wow! Things have really come a long way since I bought my system, the level of automation available today is mind boggling, but I can't help wondering how easy it is to fix when something goes wrong?

doug atkinson said:

Have you seen the price of the replacement 30” RO Membrane. If you are wishing to reduce waste which can be done then your output ppm will increase. Which increased costs in resin.

The Controllers they use are Spring Controllers which do the job efficiently but I still have to measure their performance. I do have one in stock.

I do have a booster pump which will do around 380 litres an hour but I’m learning new things each time. If set incorrectly can do harm to the membrane and pump so trying to find a way to eliminate this.

You can have a powerful RO system but ordinary piping is too small. You would have to increase the pipe size diameter from your mains supply.

Click to expand...

In all due honesty Ionics do have the edge when advising and supplying the equipment needed for processing water for large business requirements.

Lee Pryor has a lot of his equipment supplied by Ionics. But its big time investment. I'm not sure @Omegais at that point yet with having 5 or 6 vans on the road next year.

As you say the water supply has to be an important criteria for consideration. Can the water board delivery that volume of water even with the right r/o equipment?

I would image that storage is going to be an important aspect as well as the filtration side. The lads will always arrive at the same time to fill up first thing in the morning. If @Omegahas 6 vans with 650 liter tanks then he has to have a storage of 4000 litres to fill all 6 vans. A 10,000 liter tank would give a little leeway for future growth.

I once had a window cleaning company in my area when I was in the Motor trade. They processed water into a massive storage tank. I seem to remember it held around 25,000 liters. He was saying that they needed the weekends to replenish their water stocks.

Some interesting updates.

Filter changes with ionics do increase running cost considerably but they do include consultation and installation in their prices so it’s not actually much more all considered.

i contacted Grippa Tank and their service has been satisfactory at best. They didn’t listen to my specific requirements, took a long time to get back to me and then sent a quote without any softener and with elements I didn’t want such as storing tank. Their price in not much less than ionic really.

Most systems appear to estimate for 50:50 waste to pure ratio which doesn’t decrease running cost really. Just speeds up production. However, adding a booster increases power usage, cost and complexity over my current hf5 non boosted set up. If I were to double the non boosted to running 2 hf5 the cost and production is the same more or less.

re automation.

i have someone writing me code and we’re going to automate our own system to have all features inc an app to view live pressure, flow readings and TDS as well as a periodic di bypass for when the RO is first pressurised.

im also searching for an automated softener so I will measure all stats before and after installation so I can share some real world differences as I just can’t find any around with the exception it improves RO efficiency. 
 

will update and share hopefully soon.  Have a good weekend all.