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Hot water problem


TimsScrims

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I have an xline hot water system, and this week being the coldest week of the winter was the most important week to have it working.

the van was sitting idle for 2 weeks due for another reason i wont go into, but gave my van a good run a couple of days before going to work.

when working (half day) hot water wasnt coming on. Topped the hot box with anti freeze then it came on. Following day still freezing cold, full 8 hr day, hot water would only work for an hour at a time, come the afternoon would give up altogether.

my guess is, the freezing temperatures are zapping the hot water leisure batterys juice big time and needs an indoor charge overnight. 
when i checked the batt level it did go down to 10.0 from 13 during the day.
i assume the relay would be getting caned in minus temps too?

i would say it may be the leisure batterys conking out, but theyre not even a year old. Same as the relay, which was replaced 6 months ago.

has any other hot water owners had similar probs as im having? 
i would assume having a professional expensive hot water system fitted i wouldnt have these problems, i dont wanna have to keep taking my leisure batterys out to charge them up when temps get low.

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If they batteries have dropped to 10.0 they are probably ******. 

£60 (£72) for 5 minutes work to plug in a laptop to the diagnostics lead. I need to review my prices

Antifreeze will stop damage to the boiler, hot water pump and the header tank. But it won't save the heat exchangers. Each heat exchanger is divided into the internal heat circuit (with antifreeze) an

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Elec reel too.

i dont normally take my batteries out to charge as i live in a flat, ive charged them up once in last 6 months. 
 

ill take them out over weekend give em a good juice up and see what happens. Do you think the fact the van was sitting idle for couple weeks in cold with frost stat on wouldve drained the battery or done something with the hot water?

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4 hours ago, TimsScrims said:

Do you think the fact the van was sitting idle for couple weeks in cold with frost stat on wouldve drained the battery or done something with the hot water?

The heaters draw quite a bit of current on startup. So with frost stat on you would have killed the battery over a week let alone 2 weeks. In current temps I would guess your frost stat would consume about 20 -30 amps a day!!!! Even a 120Ah battery would only give you 2 to 3 days before needing a charge - you should only pull 50% of rated capacity from battery, any more and you will reduce battery life!!! If you know vans going to be sitting idle then drain all pure and switch off the frost stat.

My guess is your battery is now so knackered it can only give out enough power to power heater for an hour before voltage drops too low to fire burner, your pump will probably run at lower voltage but will be killing the battery.

Also remember that a split charge relay needs a fair few miles to recharge the leisure battery not just a few miles stop start!

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What amp hour batteries have you got ?? We haven’t had any issues with ours working 3 pumps 2 electric reels and a 9 kw boiler 8 hours a day ,sounds like the batteries are knackered they need to be fully charged every day if using a boiler split charger won’t keep them fully charged they will need mains charging every day 

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On 13/02/2021 at 12:55, ched999uk said:

The heaters draw quite a bit of current on startup. So with frost stat on you would have killed the battery over a week let alone 2 weeks. In current temps I would guess your frost stat would consume about 20 -30 amps a day!!!! Even a 120Ah battery would only give you 2 to 3 days before needing a charge - you should only pull 50% of rated capacity from battery, any more and you will reduce battery life!!! If you know vans going to be sitting idle then drain all pure and switch off the frost stat.

My guess is your battery is now so knackered it can only give out enough power to power heater for an hour before voltage drops too low to fire burner, your pump will probably run at lower voltage but will be killing the battery.

Also remember that a split charge relay needs a fair few miles to recharge the leisure battery not just a few miles stop start!

you are probably right ched999uk that all makes sense. I should of turned frost stat off, and better still took the batteries indoors, to charge every few days. I've now charged both leisure batteries, both read full charge before putting them back in the van and everything powering how it should, so will see how this working week goes. what's the point in having frost stat though (to protect your equipment in the cold) if it draws too much power so you have to keep charging the battery indoors all the time, seems a bit Irish to me and don't see the point in frost stat.

On 13/02/2021 at 12:55, Pjj said:

What amp hour batteries have you got ?? We haven’t had any issues with ours working 3 pumps 2 electric reels and a 9 kw boiler 8 hours a day ,sounds like the batteries are knackered they need to be fully charged every day if using a boiler split charger won’t keep them fully charged they will need mains charging every day 

both batteries the 110amp, 5kw heater. elec reel. im just gonna put it down to having frost stat on and van sitting in the freezing temps for 2 weeks. hopefully its not knackered the batteries up lol. how often do you take your batteries out for a proper charge?

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11 minutes ago, TimsScrims said:

you are probably right ched999uk that all makes sense. I should of turned frost stat off, and better still took the batteries indoors, to charge every few days. I've now charged both leisure batteries, both read full charge before putting them back in the van and everything powering how it should, so will see how this working week goes. what's the point in having frost stat though (to protect your equipment in the cold) if it draws too much power so you have to keep charging the battery indoors all the time, seems a bit Irish to me and don't see the point in frost stat.

both batteries the 110amp, 5kw heater. elec reel. im just gonna put it down to having frost stat on and van sitting in the freezing temps for 2 weeks. hopefully its not knackered the batteries up lol. how often do you take your batteries out for a proper charge?

The frost stat uses minimal power only when it fires up the boiler is it using any amount of power , using what you do you need to be mains charging each night this is what’s causing your problems all our vans have 9 kw boilers , 2x electric reels and 3 pumps we never have any issues we do however use 2 x180 gell extra heavy duty batteries they last around 6-7 years before replacement and are used 8 hours a day 5 days a week minimum . 

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16 minutes ago, TimsScrims said:

you are probably right ched999uk that all makes sense. I should of turned frost stat off, and better still took the batteries indoors, to charge every few days. I've now charged both leisure batteries, both read full charge before putting them back in the van and everything powering how it should, so will see how this working week goes. what's the point in having frost stat though (to protect your equipment in the cold) if it draws too much power so you have to keep charging the battery indoors all the time, seems a bit Irish to me and don't see the point in frost stat.

both batteries the 110amp, 5kw heater. elec reel. im just gonna put it down to having frost stat on and van sitting in the freezing temps for 2 weeks. hopefully its not knackered the batteries up lol. how often do you take your batteries out for a proper charge?

We have a built in charging system in the vans just connect to the shore power socket on the side of the van each night .

FE5AEDB7-3D2A-4BD6-A772-8E7AAF268B84.jpeg

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19 minutes ago, TimsScrims said:

I've now charged both leisure batteries, both read full charge before putting them back in the van and everything powering how it should, so will see how this working week goes. what's the point in having frost stat though (to protect your equipment in the cold) if it draws too much power so you have to keep charging the battery indoors all the time, seems a bit Irish to me and don't see the point in frost stat.

Hopefully you have caught them before doing any damage. You will only see the damage as reduced capacity. i.e. you wont get as many hours useage as you used to! 

Lead Acid batteries need to be kept above 12.0v rested! Rested measurements are when there has been no power in or out of the battery for about 4hrs. If you take the voltage below 12v then you will reduce the capacity of the battery a little each time!!

I think the frost stats are great when the van is in regular use but doing very little miles or not using the van for a couple of weeks when we had very cold weather isn't going to work well. I think that the heaters draw something like 8amps on startup and about 2amps running. So it's not masses of battery power but multiply it by 14 (days van not used) and even at just 4Ah a day that's 56Ah so almost all of a 110Ah battery useable capacity!! If the frost stat is taking more than 4Ah a day then your battery won't last long before being damaged!!!

I think that a fair few people who run pumps, reels and diesel heaters either charge with van plugged into mains each night or B2B chargers that are better than split charge relays.

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17 minutes ago, Pjj said:

We have a built in charging system in the vans just connect to the shore power socket on the side of the van each night .

FE5AEDB7-3D2A-4BD6-A772-8E7AAF268B84.jpeg

E4C48BC7-C2F5-4755-A386-F9202E7BFA71.jpeg

E104BB16-7BC2-45E7-9057-21F3B87DEBF9.jpeg

awesome. how do you go about getting something like that installed and cost? 

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13 minutes ago, TimsScrims said:

awesome. how do you go about getting something like that installed and cost? 

Try google it’s called a shore power socket generally used in boats they come in all shapes and sizes and cost this one was around £90 there are cheaper alternatives like the fittings used in generators the picture below is the type of thing you are looking fir but they are very expensive you should be able to get similar fir about £25-35 try an electrical supply shop 

i fitted it to the van myself and got a friend to connect it up to the charging system 

7AB5E330-20B7-4E6C-B251-82601461EB35.png

Edited by Pjj
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9 minutes ago, ched999uk said:

Hopefully you have caught them before doing any damage. You will only see the damage as reduced capacity. i.e. you wont get as many hours useage as you used to! 

Lead Acid batteries need to be kept above 12.0v rested! Rested measurements are when there has been no power in or out of the battery for about 4hrs. If you take the voltage below 12v then you will reduce the capacity of the battery a little each time!!

I think the frost stats are great when the van is in regular use but doing very little miles or not using the van for a couple of weeks when we had very cold weather isn't going to work well. I think that the heaters draw something like 8amps on startup and about 2amps running. So it's not masses of battery power but multiply it by 14 (days van not used) and even at just 4Ah a day that's 56Ah so almost all of a 110Ah battery useable capacity!! If the frost stat is taking more than 4Ah a day then your battery won't last long before being damaged!!!

I think that a fair few people who run pumps, reels and diesel heaters either charge with van plugged into mains each night or B2B chargers that are better than split charge relays.

I have a feeling I've lost longevity in the batteries, still under warranty though from Xline 😄 other than that im going to have to go Halfords and replace them if I continue getting problems this week

I've not had a problem from May (first installation) last year until now with the system, never charged the batteries up indoors, never did anything other than top up the diesel heater with anti-freeze when needed working 3 days a week. It's all been fine..

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Ime very surprised you haven’t had problems before without mains charging them a split charger evan doing high mileage won’t charge them up enough for regular use of the boiler . 

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9 minutes ago, TimsScrims said:

I have a feeling I've lost longevity in the batteries, still under warranty though from Xline 😄 other than that im going to have to go Halfords and replace them if I continue getting problems this week

I've not had a problem from May (first installation) last year until now with the system, never charged the batteries up indoors, never did anything other than top up the diesel heater with anti-freeze when needed working 3 days a week. It's all been fine..

Antifreeze will stop damage to the boiler, hot water pump and the header tank. But it won't save the heat exchangers. Each heat exchanger is divided into the internal heat circuit (with antifreeze) and the other of pure water without antifreeze. Below freezing conditions will still freeze the water in the pure water circuit in the heat exchanger and destroy it/them.

So you need your frostat working. Mine kicks on several times a night even although I put a froststat controlled heater in the back of the van.

My advice is to only go with a battery from Halfords that is class 2 rated and has a CCA value. I doubt Xline will entertain a claim on a battery.

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We don't do much mileage @TimsScrims. On Saturday, we started work after 12 and finished at 3. With the diesel heater going and 2 pumps I consumed 13% of my 105amp battery's capacity. 1/2 a mile home didn't replenish any of that. And I have a much more efficient battery to battery charger in my van.

A split charge relay  can only give your leisure battery what the alternator gives it. Alternator are excellent at supplying on demand power for vehicle accessories -heated windscreen, heated seats, wiper motor, headlights, etc. But they are terrible battery chargers.

The other issue is that lead acid batteries will only accept a small amount of charge - a starter battery can deliver a large current output to start an engine but will only accept a small recharge rate over a long period of time. My B2B charger will only push around 8 or 9 amps (an hour) back into the battery on the way home after working all day. If my trip home takes 10 minutes that charge is hardly worth talking about.

Webasto are the most widely used boilers in diesel heaters. These diesel heaters were originally designed as engine preheaters. Manufacturers use them to perheat the engine in very cold climates. Webasto advise that if the vehicle owner uses his heater for 1/2 an hour in the morning before driving off (using the engine's starter battery as a power source) then his journey needs to be at least 1/2 an hour to replace the current the heater took from the battery.

In the winter your battery looses efficiency and capacity due to the cold. So for me I put my leisure battery on charge every night in winter along with an electric heater. I'm fortunate as I park my van on the drive. My charger is wired in on the starter battery side of my B2B charger so my charger tops up both van and leisure battery. (Some split charge relays are bi-directional so if you have a charger on the leisure battery the increased charge voltage will activate the relay and charge your van battery as well. Durite is one make that is bi-directional.)

Another windy locally only has on street parking. He has 2 batteries. The first he runs during the day whilst the other is charging. He then swaps them over for the next days work.

Please refer to this DIY tutorial for a bit more info.

https://windowcleaningforums.co.uk/topic/22375-split-charge-relay/#comments

 

Edited by spruce
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On 13/02/2021 at 08:19, TimsScrims said:

Elec reel too.

i dont normally take my batteries out to charge as i live in a flat, ive charged them up once in last 6 months. 
 

ill take them out over weekend give em a good juice up and see what happens. Do you think the fact the van was sitting idle for couple weeks in cold with frost stat on wouldve drained the battery or done something with the hot water?

What you need to do then is buy 2 lots of batteries and swap them every night all year round...otherwise your gonna be knackering batteries left,right and centre...

 

Also keep your frost stat on esp in this cold weather...mines been coming on a few times a night over the last few weeks to keep everything frost free....

 

I always run a cable out to my van every night and charge my batteries all year round with a 20amp numax commercial charger.....

 

I have 2 x 105ah numax leisure/starter batteries in tandem and a battery to battery charger...I only drive 15-20 miles a day.....

I run one pump/controller,electric reel and a 9kw webasto diesel heater for around 6 hours a day....my batteries are over 3 years old and still great....

Your lack of charging your batteries is your problem mate....

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scottish cleaning service
20 minutes ago, dazmond said:

Also keep your frost stat on esp in this cold weather...mines been coming on a few times a night over the last few weeks to keep everything frost free....

I think my frost stat on my Webasto has been switched off. How can I check that its on? Thanks scs

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9 minutes ago, scottish cleaning service said:

I think my frost stat on my Webasto has been switched off. How can I check that its on? Thanks scs

Press and hold the middle and right button on your controller and continue pressing the right button until you come across ‘ftp’ i think the abbreviation is. U can turn it on or off that way.

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scottish cleaning service
1 minute ago, TimsScrims said:

Press and hold the middle and right button on your controller and continue pressing the right button until you come across ‘ftp’ i think the abbreviation is. U can turn it on or off that way.

Great thanks. I knackered my batteries because I couldn't be bothered charging them, I do with the new ones. We should try and charge them every time we use them to keep them topped up. It was an expensive experience and cost me £240. 😪

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