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ex worker stealing my window cleaning round

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susan dent

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Can anyone advise me? our window cleaning business has been going for some 50 years , the guys that work for us are all self employed . My husband has run this business the whole time , but unfortunately died 3 years ago . I kept it running as I didnt want to put anyone out of a job. a Guy that has worked for us for 12 years decided last Wednesday that he was leaving a going on his own, which is fine , but I find our the nest day the all of the ash work he did for us he has stolen an is now doing it for himself. Is here anything that I can do legally ?  

 
Probably nothing legally. Plus if you do anything there is a chance you could be in trouble for IR35 rules but I don't know enough about that. I would have a chat to him and tell him he can buy the round from you otherwise he may have actually broken the data protection laws in taking customer data. Also I wonder if he has been declaring all that you have paid him on his tax forms???

You could get someone else to do the round a few days before they are due so he has no work especially if the customers haven't told you to stop cleaning the windows - all very tricky.....

I definitely would have a polite calm chat with him before doing anything, especially as he has worked for you for 12 years! Try and come to an agreement.

 
I would speak to the customers and see what he has told them first then speak  to him , if the customers are decent they should stick with you not him , this is a difficult situation , legacy I dint know if there is anything you can do might pay  to speak to a solicitor for  a bit of advice 

 
It would depend on his contract, no contract no comebacks unfortunately. I'd also be very careful in how far you chase this as you say he was self employed  but then say he was employed by you.

It sounds like your husband was bending employment laws. I appreciate this isn't what you want to hear but, as far as I know, is the legal actuality. Speak to a Solicitor but if there is no written contract and he wasn't employed I'd be very surprised if you could do anything. Good luck though as obviously he isn't a decent person and morally in the wrong.

 
Part Timer said:
It would depend on his contract, no contract no comebacks unfortunately. I'd also be very careful in how far you chase this as you say he was self employed  but then say he was employed by you.

It sounds like your husband was bending employment laws. I appreciate this isn't what you want to hear but, as far as I know, is the legal actuality. Speak to a Solicitor but if there is no written contract and he wasn't employed I'd be very surprised if you could do anything. Good luck though as obviously he isn't a decent person and morally in the wrong.
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Thank you I think I worded that wrongly , he was self employed , and subcontracting work from us , so not bending the rules , but u are right not a decent person , who ribs the dead , he clearly has no morals 

 
susan dent said:
Can anyone advise me? our window cleaning business has been going for some 50 years , the guys that work for us are all self employed . My husband has run this business the whole time , but unfortunately died 3 years ago . I kept it running as I didnt want to put anyone out of a job. a Guy that has worked for us for 12 years decided last Wednesday that he was leaving a going on his own, which is fine , but I find our the nest day the all of the ash work he did for us he has stolen an is now doing it for himself. Is here anything that I can do legally ?  
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If your customers have been with you for many years and value your family service you'd expect to retain them.

The unfortunate reality is that your ex employee has most likely fed them a story or two and has undercut you on price and will probably do a few cleans then realise it's not profitable or feasible to continue 

Do you hold a contract of service with your customers or was it a gentleman's agreement? 

I hate to say it but it's not going to be an easy situation to handle 

 
This is quite sad to read on the whole and for someone who has subbed for you for so long,  No idea how things were set up, but do the customers possibly view him as their cleaner and not you or your business dependant on cards put through the door and who they pay, 

I am guessing this is a serious amount of income we are talking about hear and the situation shouldn't be taken lightly, hopefully you have some family and close friends for support and guidance and maybe heed this a warning in case any of the others get ideas and have contracts drawn up as I would think data protection comes in here in terms of customers details.

 
We have uniforms, logos, website, customers pay us by DD. We have our staff on payroll, and have restricted covenants on our employment contracts.

All these things protect us from this, but if it did happen, I would consider using our txt local system to notify customers.

Beyond this, honestly I wouldn't give to toss. I wouldn't work for the prices he has probably quoted to steal the jobs, I know better than that.

Best bet would to be to increase marketing is the areas affected, and take on better priced work.

BTW, I know it common on plenty do it, but just calling staff self employed sub-contractors, so your not paying sick pay, holidays, pensions, downtime, is skirting employment law.

If you supply the tools, the jobs, and he doesn't have other income streams, he is employed by you. Although I sympathise with your situation, I also sympathise with his. What would you do in his situation, working 12 years without basic employment rights.

Move on replace the customers and wish the guy the best of luck. There is only so many he can do by himself.

 
Iron Giant said:
This is quite sad to read on the whole and for someone who has subbed for you for so long,  No idea how things were set up, but do the customers possibly view him as their cleaner and not you or your business dependant on cards put through the door and who they pay, 

I am guessing this is a serious amount of income we are talking about hear and the situation shouldn't be taken lightly, hopefully you have some family and close friends for support and guidance and maybe heed this a warning in case any of the others get ideas and have contracts drawn up as I would think data protection comes in here in terms of customers details.
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I agree totally, a sad story of a valued family business which is well established being screwed over by an ex employee in these circumstances is the lowest of the low 

 
laddergarder said:
We have uniforms, logos, website, customers pay us by DD. We have our staff on payroll, and have restricted covenants on our employment contracts.

All these things protect us from this, but if it did happen, I would consider using our txt local system to notify customers.

Beyond this, honestly I wouldn't give to toss. I wouldn't work for the prices he has probably quoted to steal the jobs, I know better than that.

Best bet would to be to increase marketing is the areas affected, and take on better priced work.

BTW, I know it common on plenty do it, but just calling staff self employed sub-contractors, so your not paying sick pay, holidays, pensions, downtime, is skirting employment law.

If you supply the tools, the jobs, and he doesn't have other income streams, he is employed by you. Although I sympathise with your situation, I also sympathise with his. What would you do in his situation, working 12 years without basic employment rights.

Move on replace the customers and wish the guy the best of luck. There is only so many he can do by himself.
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We didn’t ask him to be self employed , he choose it , I have found out  now that he has done this a number of times. , so not a decent person , wants to take what someone has worked hard to get 

 
I'd be surprised if he's undercut the prices, it seems that he's just assumed ownership over them. From the customers point of view, they are the customers of whoever it is that they pay and communicate with. If they all pay him cash on the day and he then there's not much you can do. If they were paying you @susan dent via bank transfer or direct debit and you have contact information then they should understand that they're your customers not his and should respond to a message explaining the situation and saying that the ex-worker has left and that another worker will be assigned to their house. It depends on the exact situation though. 

 
susan dent said:
We didn’t ask him to be self employed , he choose it , I have found out  now that he has done this a number of times. , so not a decent person , wants to take what someone has worked hard to get 
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I get what your saying, and it must be very agrivating, but its you that chooses how you employ staff. You must have understood that risks involved in employing in this manor, and besides what I and others have suggested, inform customers, market to replace the customers. What else can you do?

Once he is full and can't take on anymore, he'll understand why undercutting is a poor way to attract customers, once he counts up what he is paying out doing everything himself.

This is just part in parcel of running a business, don't stress, do what you can, carry on.

 
laddergarder said:
I get what your saying, and it must be very agrivating, but its you that chooses how you employ staff. You must have understood that risks involved in employing in this manor, and besides what I and others have suggested, inform customers, market to replace the customers. What else can you do?

Once he is full and can't take on anymore, he'll understand why undercutting is a poor way to attract customers, once he counts up what he is paying out doing everything himself.

This is just part in parcel of running a business, don't stress, do what you can, carry on.
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Thank you for your advice ,  this villainess has been running for nearly 50 years , and in the earlier days my husband both got the reciting and did all of it himself , relying on himself for everything , it was only when he had a massive heart attack that we had to take in subcontractors. What really grates is that we have known this person for 30 years of a personal nature then he was out of work when my husband trained him to clean windows and he then sub work from us . Unfortunately my husband died 3 years ago , clearly. He either dosent want to carry on subbing. From me which is fine if he wants to move on but to steal from my dead husband personally I don’t know how he sleeps at night 

 
susan dent said:
Thank you for your advice ,  this villainess has been running for nearly 50 years , and in the earlier days my husband both got the reciting and did all of it himself , relying on himself for everything , it was only when he had a massive heart attack that we had to take in subcontractors. What really grates is that we have known this person for 30 years of a personal nature then he was out of work when my husband trained him to clean windows and he then sub work from us . Unfortunately my husband died 3 years ago , clearly. He either dosent want to carry on subbing. From me which is fine if he wants to move on but to steal from my dead husband personally I don’t know how he sleeps at night 
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And here in lies the problem with 'subcontracting' window cleaning.

Who actually owns the customers?

Does he own his own van and all equipmemt?

If he stoppes working for you, would you still be able to fullfill your 'obligation' to the customers?

Why dont you speak to this guy and have a conversation "look we know you dont want to sub the work from us, but youve been doing it for 12yrs for us, no point in falling out, why dont you buy the entire round off us"

 
HWCS said:
And here in lies the problem with 'subcontracting' window cleaning.

Who actually owns the customers?

Does he own his own van and all equipmemt?

If he stoppes working for you, would you still be able to fullfill your 'obligation' to the customers?

Why dont you speak to this guy and have a conversation "look we know you dont want to sub the work from us, but youve been doing it for 12yrs for us, no point in falling out, why dont you buy the entire round off us"
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I agree with what you are saying but he’s got the customers for nothing so very unlikely he will be prepared to pay for the round , I would be going round and speaking to him first then depending what his reaction is would then be visiting or posting an explanation letter to all the customers explaining the situation , hopefully they will see him for the con man he is and tell him to get lost . 

 
Pjj said:
I agree with what you are saying but he’s got the customers for nothing so very unlikely he will be prepared to pay for the round , I would be going round and speaking to him first then depending what his reaction is would then be visiting or posting an explanation letter to all the customers explaining the situation , hopefully they will see him for the con man he is and tell him to get lost . 
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I have tried to speak to him, but he is not very forthcoming, he just said you know what it is like down there ( the work is in the city and west end if London)

 
susan dent said:
Thank you for your advice ,  this villainess has been running for nearly 50 years , and in the earlier days my husband both got the reciting and did all of it himself , relying on himself for everything , it was only when he had a massive heart attack that we had to take in subcontractors. What really grates is that we have known this person for 30 years of a personal nature then he was out of work when my husband trained him to clean windows and he then sub work from us . Unfortunately my husband died 3 years ago , clearly. He either dosent want to carry on subbing. From me which is fine if he wants to move on but to steal from my dead husband personally I don’t know how he sleeps at night 
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His actions are definitely a little morally askew. He could have gone it alone without targeting jobs he did for you, or at least not using pricing information his gained in good faith.

But unfortately there really is little you can do. You don't want things getting nasty with him, that will cause you more upset and agro.

Consider, some off the things I mentioned to protect yourself in the future, payroll, contracts, branding etc, and using marketing, and offer him some strong compition in areas he is trying to establish himself in, you may well drum him out.

 
I think my approach would be to speak directly with the customers. I'd tell it as it is, as you've shared it with us. You're family business, founded by your good self and you're now sadly deceased husband. Explain that you helped this guy out when he was in trouble and that you're shocked, hurt and saddened that he could do this after knowing you for all those years.

I personally wouldn't have anything to do with him. I wouldn't give the b.....d the satisfaction. He's already shown his character so no point.

I'd avoid the temptation to call him any insulting names when talking with customers. A friend of mine (in the legal profession) gave me similar advice years ago when I was going through a tough time with a family break up. "Be honest, tell it as it is. keep the moral high ground.

 
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This is a terrible situation but like many have said - no contract, no comeback. The same way you’d have employment contracts with employees or self-employed staff, you should look to put contracts in place with any subcontractors you work with too.

Not overly familiar with residential work, but I imagine not many would be comfortable signing contracts with Window Cleaning companies.

The contracts you do use can be simple and they would give you some protection if it came to a court case.

If you need any assistance or contract templates, give me a message and I’d be happy to share.
 
Obviously you should contact the customers directly....but if this guy has been cleaning their windows for the past 12 years they may well have good relationship with him that they may prefer to continue with. Unless their is a contract with him not to poach your customers, which you probably do not have...and customers are under no obligation to stay with you forever either.
 

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