Welcome to the UK Window Cleaning Forums

Starting or own a window cleaning business? We're a network of window cleaners sharing advice, tips & experience. Rounds for sale & more. Join us today!

Streamline heatwave thermo 2 questions

D

Deleted member 84

Hey firstly are these straightforward to plumb up, I would use a separate fuel tank to run of red diesel.

Are they easy to set up to circulate the water round the tank over night to prevent freezing.

The offer two models

9kw and 5.2kw

what's the most beneficial for a one man set up.

Pros and cons of both

Thanks

 
Hey firstly are these straightforward to plumb up, I would use a separate fuel tank to run of red diesel.

Are they easy to set up to circulate the water round the tank over night to prevent freezing.

The offer two models

9kw and 5.2kw

what's the most beneficial for a one man set up.

Pros and cons of both

Thanks
From what I've seen, they require power from a battery, diesel can be supplied via a generic Chineseium style diesel heater style flat tank and plumbed in with ease. Water is drawn from the tank and heated upon demand 

 
Hey firstly are these straightforward to plumb up, I would use a separate fuel tank to run of red diesel.

Are they easy to set up to circulate the water round the tank over night to prevent freezing.

The offer two models

9kw and 5.2kw

what's the most beneficial for a one man set up.

Pros and cons of both

Thanks
9kw the 5kw won't be hot enough.....these are best fitted by someone who's knows what their doing....its not a DIY job for most people 

You ll need to drill through the floor for air inlet and exhaust....you also need good adequate battery bank and split charge relay fitted....

Red diesel is not recommended...it can coke the burner up prematurely 

 
9kw the 5kw won't be hot enough.....these are best fitted by someone who's knows what their doing....its not a DIY job for most people 

You ll need to drill through the floor for air inlet and exhaust....you also need good adequate battery bank and split charge relay fitted....

Red diesel is not recommended...it can coke the burner up prematurely 
Added to this is that the regulations regarding the use of red diesel change from April next year (2022). While red diesel can be legally used for heating purposes atm which would include running a diesel heater now, most sales next year for commercial applications will cease.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/reform-of-red-diesel-entitlements/reform-of-red-diesel-and-other-rebated-fuels-entitlement

Imho fitting a second tank to use red diesel is no longer necessary. The easiest way would be to tap into your own diesel tank.

All these little changes the government is making are going to have a major impact on the cost of services and the cost of living. I also believe that the reduced sales of red diesel to industry at the forecourts, ie tree surgeons etc, will mean that most of these outlets will close.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
Say I have an electric van and fit a tank for diesel heater then I was going to use red diesel if I can get it.
With an electric van you would have to do that anyway, but red diesel will be an issue in April. In our local service station that caters for the fishing boats there is a large notice on the wall saying that red diesel is not for road use. They rely on your honesty as to its use. Obviously you can only fill drums unless you have a tractor towing the fishing boats up and down the beach. They rely on government inspectors to enforce the correct use of red diesel. I would imagine that from April all their sales will be strictly recorded with purchasers details like the recording of number plates are.

As far as I'm aware, canal boats will continue to be allowed a 60/40 propulsion/heating split where 60% of the red diesel sold to the boater is taxed normally for propulsion and the remaining 40% for heating at the reduced rate. Every time you filled up at a marina you had your details logged.

With regard to a tank, it would need to be of reasonable size and you would need to be able to see how much fuel you have left. One of the major issues with these heaters is running out of diesel. The heater will try to restart 3 times and then lock out. While removing the fuse will work most of the time, there is always the possibility that it can only be sorted at a Webasto service supplier with his Webasto computer program.

This is why its always best to use the van's tank as a diesel source. Citroen brought out a Berlingo Electric van back in the early 2000's. The only form of heating/windscreen demisting/defrosting was a Webasto Thermo Top C which ran off diesel from a small diesel tank. None of the units ever had a working heater as no one put fuel into the tank. They were all 'bricked'.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
With an electric van you would have to do that anyway, but red diesel will be an issue in April. In our local service station that caters for the fishing boats there is a large notice on the wall saying that red diesel is not for road use. They rely on your honesty as to its use. Obviously you can only fill drums unless you have a tractor towing the fishing boats up and down the beach. They rely on government inspectors to enforce the correct use of red diesel. I would imagine that from April all their sales will be strictly recorded with purchasers details like the recording of number plates are.

As far as I'm aware, canal boats will continue to be allowed a 60/40 propulsion/heating split where 60% of the red diesel sold to the boater is taxed normally for propulsion and the remaining 40% for heating at the reduced rate. Every time you filled up at a marina you had your details logged.

With regard to a tank, it would need to be of reasonable size and you would need to be able to see how much fuel you have left. One of the major issues with these heaters is running out of diesel. The heater will try to restart 3 times and then lock out. While removing the fuse will work most of the time, there is always the possibility that it can only be sorted at a Webasto service supplier with his Webasto computer program.

This is why its always best to use the van's tank as a diesel source. Citroen brought out a Berlingo Electric van back in the early 2000's. The only form of heating/windscreen demisting/defrosting was a Webasto Thermo Top C which ran off diesel from a small diesel tank. None of the units ever had a working heater as no one put fuel into the tank. They were all 'bricked'.
Seems like if you want an electric van then an electric heater the night before seems the way forward but the cost may out way the option of an electric van. Seems we are stuck with diesel for immediate future and prices will just have to rise. I used to miss collecting back payments but not any more because all they do is hold one back. If they try and wriggle out of it then I just tell them to find someone else. Keeping the good payers and dumping the toxic payers means I can invest in new van, as I've got it down to a pound a minute when working. Folk do try and slow me down but I have a new attitude now.




 
Hey firstly are these straightforward to plumb up, I would use a separate fuel tank to run of red diesel.

Are they easy to set up to circulate the water round the tank over night to prevent freezing.

The offer two models

9kw and 5.2kw

what's the most beneficial for a one man set up.

Pros and cons of both

Thanks
hi alpine, a couple of questions and so so many ways to answer, if you think of those people who have spent literally thousands on a hot water heater then, they'll defend that heater as it will be the first and only heater they have owned, and have no other experience of any other way to keep the water warm even over night.

first things first though, i saw your post on the power up reel and how you took it apart and sorted the issue out so, that shows me you are handy with the tools so fitting a heater is no real biggy for you just, a few things to remember when fitting them.

they are easy to install as long as you go for the better more expensive fittings-don't be going cheap and skrimping as it'll bite you back at some point, personally i'd go for the 5.2kw option for many reasons, i've used the 9kw version as a sole user and in all honesty its a proper pain in the butt, constantly checking battery level and charging either on the job via a split charge or at night plus double the fuel usage for not that much for extra heat.

if you tweak the 5.2 kw you can nearly match the 9kw in heat output within 5degrees  or so, for me the night heating option is one i disabled (well totally stripped it out) as i find the chinese air heater far far better and you'd not have a frozen van or any hoses with one of these installed, i like my streamline heater not had to work on it much other than modify certain parts and works perfectly for my needs as a sole user. hope this helps. please feel free to ask for any info, i,m due to to stop over at brid within the next couple of weeks (static caravan) so could show you my set up if you like.

 
hi alpine, a couple of questions and so so many ways to answer, if you think of those people who have spent literally thousands on a hot water heater then, they'll defend that heater as it will be the first and only heater they have owned, and have no other experience of any other way to keep the water warm even over night.

first things first though, i saw your post on the power up reel and how you took it apart and sorted the issue out so, that shows me you are handy with the tools so fitting a heater is no real biggy for you just, a few things to remember when fitting them.

they are easy to install as long as you go for the better more expensive fittings-don't be going cheap and skrimping as it'll bite you back at some point, personally i'd go for the 5.2kw option for many reasons, i've used the 9kw version as a sole user and in all honesty its a proper pain in the butt, constantly checking battery level and charging either on the job via a split charge or at night plus double the fuel usage for not that much for extra heat.

if you tweak the 5.2 kw you can nearly match the 9kw in heat output within 5degrees  or so, for me the night heating option is one i disabled (well totally stripped it out) as i find the chinese air heater far far better and you'd not have a frozen van or any hoses with one of these installed, i like my streamline heater not had to work on it much other than modify certain parts and works perfectly for my needs as a sole user. hope this helps. please feel free to ask for any info, i,m due to to stop over at brid within the next couple of weeks (static caravan) so could show you my set up if you like.
Thanks for the reply mate very helpful.

That would be good if you wouldn't mind.

 
Having got 3 hot systems I would say go for the 9 kw the 5 isn’t that good it will give warm water in winter but certainly not hot , I had one and got rid of it , fuel consumption there is a difference but it’s not huge don’t believe the book figures I recon the 9 uses around 1:25 ltr per hour not the stated 0:9 but the 5 uses around 0:9 per hour fir far less heat . I know several people that have bought the 5 and regretted it , better to go fir the 9 and if it’s to hot you can turn it down a bit although they do like being run flat out . 

 
I believe that one of the big issues as a sole trader is keeping the heater working.

If you are inclined to natter a bit to your customers like I do then you are going to have an issue running one of these heaters.

I have a 2 man Streamline Heatwave 9kw Webasto. I have added a third 22kw water to water heat exchanger, a third Shurflo pump and a 12v digital temperature controller. When the internal hot water circuit reaches 82 degrees C, my digital temperature controller kicks the third Shurflo pump on which pumps hot water back into the tank. When the internal hot water circuit drops to 78 degrees C the digital controller switches the pump off. Between these temperatures the heater is on reduced heat mode and the heater will run all day.

It's very nice to have hot water, especially during the cold winter months. The hoses are much more manageable  and there is a warm glow from the carbon pole itself.

We do very little mileage and find that the heater uses more fuel a day than my van uses. I estimated that my heater the way I use it uses just over a litre of fuel an hour, similar to what @Pjj reports. (He works his heater harder than I do.)

IMHO I don't see a major improvement in ease of cleaning using warm to hot water. (Our temperature regulating valves are set to around 55 degrees C leaving the heater. I haven't measured the water temperature coming out of the brush head on a very cold day with 50% of the hose out. I will do that at some point this winter.)

Like others, my concern is not to crack a window which, in reality, isn't likely to happen in my remaining lifetime. But what this does for me is drive me to keep the brush moving which could give me the indication of doing more work and/or completing a house clean quicker than using cold.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
I believe that one of the big issues as a sole trader is keeping the heater working.

If you are inclined to natter a bit to your customers like I do then you are going to have an issue running one of these heaters.

I have a 2 man Streamline Heatwave 9kw Webasto. I have added a third 22kw water to water heat exchanger, a third Shurflo pump and a 12v digital temperature controller. When the internal hot water circuit reaches 82 degrees C, my digital temperature controller kicks the third Shurflo pump on which pumps hot water back into the tank. When the internal hot water circuit drops to 78 degrees C the digital controller switches the pump off. Between these temperatures the heater is on reduced heat mode and the heater will run all day.
We have two hose reels in each van so if only one operator then the other reel is constantly returning water to the tank so it’s not a problem. 

 
i've no wish to fall out with anyone but, i have to disagree on some of the comments, i used to have a 9kw in fact i sold it to pjj as it was a bit of overkill for me (the system an ionics was one i'd allways wanted one but in reality it was not workable for me).

intrestingley i have a friend who has a grippa system a 9kw version and he's said that he wished he'd gone for the 5 as he has to use have a seperate pump to feed back to the tank otherwise the burner will go into the "limp" mode most of the time,

@ALPINEYORKSwhat size tank do you have? as there is a few ways to go hot, could you supply power to the van overnight? ie extension reel as this could open up a few alternatives to you,  you could retro fit a diesel heater to heat the tank at probably a cost of around £500 tops or fit an immersion ,there are a fair few ways which may suit you rather than going the whole hog and getting the big burner and not using it to its full potential, and if i'm honest why do you feel you need to go for hot water? i know your on the coast but you've got by until now why do you feel the need to change?

 
you could retro fit a diesel heater to heat the tank at probably a cost of around £500 tops
Sounds interesting? Is this using a used car webasto and a heat exchanger? I looked at that a while ago out of interest but it seemed that you need some sort of controller as most are canbus controlled?

 
i've no wish to fall out with anyone but, i have to disagree on some of the comments, i used to have a 9kw in fact i sold it to pjj as it was a bit of overkill for me (the system an ionics was one i'd allways wanted one but in reality it was not workable for me).

intrestingley i have a friend who has a grippa system a 9kw version and he's said that he wished he'd gone for the 5 as he has to use have a seperate pump to feed back to the tank otherwise the burner will go into the "limp" mode most of the time,

@ALPINEYORKSwhat size tank do you have? as there is a few ways to go hot, could you supply power to the van overnight? ie extension reel as this could open up a few alternatives to you,  you could retro fit a diesel heater to heat the tank at probably a cost of around £500 tops or fit an immersion ,there are a fair few ways which may suit you rather than going the whole hog and getting the big burner and not using it to its full potential, and if i'm honest why do you feel you need to go for hot water? i know your on the coast but you've got by until now why do you feel the need to change?
With respect Kevin and I don’t want to fall out or upset anyone the 9 kw should be fitted with a return to tank as a standard  fitment , as far as I was aware that’s how Grippatank install them , I have one of there add on boilers in my personal van and that has two hose reels if only one is in use the other is constantly returning water to the tank  keeping the boiler running , if both reels are in use then the boiler will still run all the time . Mine very rarely shuts down unless we stop using both hose reels which is very rare . Generally it’s running flat out 6-8 hours per day .They should be fitted with a return to tank to keep water circulating and the boiler running 

The ionics systems only have one hot pump and part of that water is continuously returning to the tank again keeping the boiler running . The Grippatank set up is in my opinion much better but as the ionics one only has one heat exchanger it does get hotter than the Grippatank one . I have also had the 5 kw streamline set up it was no ware near hot enough so I sold it on in fairness to streamline they did say it would supply warm water in winter not hot . The difference in price between the 5kw and 9kw  is only around £200-350 so again it’s a no brainier  go for the 9 every time 

 
With respect Kevin and I don’t want to fall out or upset anyone the 9 kw should be fitted with a return to tank as a standard  fitment , as far as I was aware that’s how Grippatank install them , I have one of there add on boilers in my personal van and that has two hose reels if only one is in use the other is constantly returning water to the tank  keeping the boiler running , if both reels are in use then the boiler will still run all the time . Mine very rarely shuts down unless we stop using both hose reels which is very rare . Generally it’s running flat out 6-8 hours per day .They should be fitted with a return to tank to keep water circulating and the boiler running 

The ionics systems only have one hot pump and part of that water is continuously returning to the tank again keeping the boiler running . The Grippatank set up is in my opinion much better but as the ionics one only has one heat exchanger it does get hotter than the Grippatank one . I have also had the 5 kw streamline set up it was no ware near hot enough so I sold it on in fairness to streamline they did say it would supply warm water in winter not hot . The difference in price between the 5kw and 9kw  is only around £200-350 so again it’s a no brainier  go for the 9 every time 
Aye, I have the Grippatank 9KW boiler and I only use one reel at a time and switch about. My tank eventually becomes hot because of the return to tank system. I would insulate it if I was cleaning windows every day and keep the tank warm all the time.

 
i've no wish to fall out with anyone but, i have to disagree on some of the comments, i used to have a 9kw in fact i sold it to pjj as it was a bit of overkill for me (the system an ionics was one i'd allways wanted one but in reality it was not workable for me).

intrestingley i have a friend who has a grippa system a 9kw version and he's said that he wished he'd gone for the 5 as he has to use have a seperate pump to feed back to the tank otherwise the burner will go into the "limp" mode most of the time,

@ALPINEYORKSwhat size tank do you have? as there is a few ways to go hot, could you supply power to the van overnight? ie extension reel as this could open up a few alternatives to you,  you could retro fit a diesel heater to heat the tank at probably a cost of around £500 tops or fit an immersion ,there are a fair few ways which may suit you rather than going the whole hog and getting the big burner and not using it to its full potential, and if i'm honest why do you feel you need to go for hot water? i know your on the coast but you've got by until now why do you feel the need to change?
Hi Kevin. I would certainly not be able to run a 9kw heater as a single user without my additional automatic bleed off facility.

When I set up my 5.2kw experiment before I opted for a 9kw, I was unable to raise the water temperature above 35 degrees C from 9 degrees C water temperature in the van's tank.

What I didn't test more was how water flow at my brush head is affected by an increase in water temperature. So running my Varistream on 3 with hot water was possibly the same flow rate as 5 using cold. (When I measured my Varistream and pump it delivered 1.5 liters of water a minute of cold water on 3.) Had I throttled the Varistream back to say 2, I would have had a similar flow I was used to, but as the water was in the heat exchanger longer, I would expect a higher output temperature.

What I also did was to have the flow on constantly during my experiment. When cleaning windows we move from one window to another and we often switch the flow off when moving. This would also allow a little heat recovery.

I also don't know the inside condition of the Webasto Thermo Top C I purchased as it was second hand out of a canal boat. Now it could be that it needed to be opened up and decoked as it could well have been used with marine purchased red diesel and heavily coked up. However, it didn't smoke when starting and I never had any issues starting it.

For me, I worked out that on paper, a 5.2kw boiler would just about keep place with 2 operators, but what I failed to realise is that a large percentage of that 5.2kw of heat produced exits the exhaust and some more is lost in radiation, about 45%.

Either way, I figured that a 5.2kw would not support warm water for 2 of us, hence the reason why I kicked the 5.2kw into touch. However, if it was just me working totally as a sole operator a 5.2kw would have given me warm supple hoses, the reason for having hot water to begin with.

I had considered using the heater to heat the water inside the tank, but I couldn't see the logical reason for doing that. There was a video of a cleaner in Andover who used that setup and he was over the moon with how it worked out for him. I can't find the video he posted on Youtube.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
i've no wish to fall out with anyone but, i have to disagree on some of the comments, i used to have a 9kw in fact i sold it to pjj as it was a bit of overkill for me (the system an ionics was one i'd allways wanted one but in reality it was not workable for me).

intrestingley i have a friend who has a grippa system a 9kw version and he's said that he wished he'd gone for the 5 as he has to use have a seperate pump to feed back to the tank otherwise the burner will go into the "limp" mode most of the time,

@ALPINEYORKSwhat size tank do you have? as there is a few ways to go hot, could you supply power to the van overnight? ie extension reel as this could open up a few alternatives to you,  you could retro fit a diesel heater to heat the tank at probably a cost of around £500 tops or fit an immersion ,there are a fair few ways which may suit you rather than going the whole hog and getting the big burner and not using it to its full potential, and if i'm honest why do you feel you need to go for hot water? i know your on the coast but you've got by until now why do you feel the need to change?
I looked at the diesel heater but it would need a coil within its loop.

I've had the lpg boilers before.

Due to have little kids I don't really want to be driving around with gas bottles in the back.

I'm wanting hot water has I don't want to sit at home if we get a cold snap I've done enough of that this last year or so with covid every time the school or nursery shut that was me off. So that's the main reason

 
I looked at the diesel heater but it would need a coil within its loop.

I've had the lpg boilers before.

Due to have little kids I don't really want to be driving around with gas bottles in the back.

I'm wanting hot water has I don't want to sit at home if we get a cold snap I've done enough of that this last year or so with covid every time the school or nursery shut that was me off. So that's the main reason
Not sure what you mean about a “ new coil in the loop “ ??? Diesel boilers have heat exchangers not a coil or all the ones I have come across have anyway .

 
Hi Kevin. I would certainly not be able to run a 9kw heater as a single user without my additional automatic bleed off facility.

When I set up my 5.2kw experiment before I opted for a 9kw, I was unable to raise the water temperature above 35 degrees C from 9 degrees C water temperature in the van's tank.

What I didn't test more was how water flow at my brush head is affected by an increase in water temperature. So running my Varistream on 3 with hot water was possibly the same flow rate as 5 using cold. (When I measured my Varistream and pump it delivered 1.5 liters of water a minute of cold water on 3.) Had I throttled the Varistream back to say 2, I would have had a similar flow I was used to, but as the water was in the heat exchanger longer, I would expect a higher output temperature.

What I also did was to have the flow on constantly during my experiment. When cleaning windows we move from one window to another and we often switch the flow off when moving. This would also allow a little heat recovery.

I also don't know the inside condition of the Webasto Thermo Top C I purchased as it was second hand out of a canal boat. Now it could be that it needed to be opened up and decoked as it could well have been used with marine purchased red diesel and heavily coked up. However, it didn't smoke when starting and I never had any issues starting it.

For me, I worked out that on paper, a 5.2kw boiler would just about keep place with 2 operators, but what I failed to realise is that a large percentage of that 5.2kw of heat produced exits the exhaust and some more is lost in radiation, about 45%.

Either way, I figured that a 5.2kw would not support warm water for 2 of us, hence the reason why I kicked the 5.2kw into touch. However, if it was just me working totally as a sole operator a 5.2kw would have given me warm supple hoses, the reason for having hot water to begin with.

I had considered using the heater to heat the water inside the tank, but I couldn't see the logical reason for doing that. There was a video of a cleaner in Andover who used that setup and he was over the moon with how it worked out for him. I can't find the video he posted on Youtube.
its an intresting subject (well, for me anyway-i'm geeky).

 
Back
Top