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Bigbird

Hi I have just took on my first employee full time. Does anyone know where i can get a contract of employment form, suitable for window cleaners. What do you?

 

Thanks Bigbird

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Guest garyrob32

Thanks - thinking of taking on an employee myself after xmas so saved me the trouble looking for these!

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Bigbird

Thanks RCPROPERTY for taking the time for the downloads much appreciated.

 

Bigbird

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rcproperty

Thanks RCPROPERTY for taking the time for the downloads much appreciated.

 

Bigbird

 

no problem, hope they help

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Cleanco

I used to use a chartered accountant a few years ago and he advised me that it’s more common in our line of work to have people work for you under a self employed basis and as long as it’s done correctly it’s perfectly legal although new laws are making it increasingly more difficult. Funnily enough my insurers said the same thing whilst inquiring about employers liability. 

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P4dstar
9 hours ago, Mabozzer said:

Is this still an acceptable contract to use this year or should anything be changed other than the hourly rate. Also how do you manage the days off for bad weather? 

If you use the confidentiality contract you need to have a privacy policy, best to display this on your website. In keeping with GDPR you are giving some basic personal data to a third party.

 

With regards to the employment contract I cannot think of any major changes in the law in the last 7 years that would cause me concern personally. It is certainly better than not having a contract at all.

8 hours ago, Cleanco said:

I used to use a chartered accountant a few years ago and he advised me that it’s more common in our line of work to have people work for you under a self employed basis and as long as it’s done correctly it’s perfectly legal although new laws are making it increasingly more difficult. Funnily enough my insurers said the same thing whilst inquiring about employers liability. 

It is not legal to take someone on self employed under most circumstances and if you want them to be with you long term it's not a good idea. Loads of builders etc do this thing where they make people self employed and then pay the employees tax for them. It does nothing but screw the employee over. If you're interested in an example of how it can go drastically wrong search for Pimlico plumbers.

 

You can of course give a 0 hour contract which resolves the issue around rainy days... Treat them cr4p and they will undoubtably leave though!

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Mabozzer

What happens when it's severe weather and nothing moves for 2 or 3 weeks. 

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P4dstar
3 minutes ago, Mabozzer said:

What happens when it's severe weather and nothing moves for 2 or 3 weeks. 

Depending if you're trad or WFP you can work in the rain. I've never known it to be severe enough for 2-3 weeks that you can't work at all, plenty of overtime about when you're playing catch up at the end. Also they're entitled to holiday, worth having an agreement for times like this to get it out the way.

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Mabozzer

Down south you'll get it easier though, 2010 guys were hardly out for about 4 weeks. Last winter was also pretty bad and during the winter the working hours are reduced so you've only got a Saturday for OT

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P4dstar
5 minutes ago, Mabozzer said:

Down south you'll get it easier though, 2010 guys were hardly out for about 4 weeks. Last winter was also pretty bad and during the winter the working hours are reduced so you've only got a Saturday for OT

Very true. Fact is either self employed or 0 hour contract these boys ain't getting paid in a blizzard. That is a risk people take when they take a job that is weather reliant.

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Mabozzer

I've read that self employed is a touchy subject so I'll maybe modify the above contract to Zero hours to cover bad weather and give acas a call as well.

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Cleanco
8 hours ago, P4dstar said:

If you use the confidentiality contract you need to have a privacy policy, best to display this on your website. In keeping with GDPR you are giving some basic personal data to a third party.

 

With regards to the employment contract I cannot think of any major changes in the law in the last 7 years that would cause me concern personally. It is certainly better than not having a contract at all.

It is not legal to take someone on self employed under most circumstances and if you want them to be with you long term it's not a good idea. Loads of builders etc do this thing where they make people self employed and then pay the employees tax for them. It does nothing but screw the employee over. If you're interested in an example of how it can go drastically wrong search for Pimlico plumbers.

 

You can of course give a 0 hour contract which resolves the issue around rainy days... Treat them cr4p and they will undoubtably leave though!

I saw the owner of plimco on a tv programme about ordinary people 

with ordinary jobs that have made an extraordinary fortune. He’s loaded and doing things on a grand scale and a million miles away from what we are talking about. I know the morals are the same but you can see where I’m coming from and there are still plenty of traders doing it legally.  I’m just passing on info that I’ve been given from what I’d like to think are people in the know. 

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Cghwindowcleaning

If someone works solely for you has no work of there own and is using your van and tools etc and have no end date for the work then they should be employed as there is clearly the work for them.

it doesn't matter what your account has told you it won't come back on him.

There are loads doing it the self employed way but it doesn't mean it's legal it just means they have never been court out.

If you offer them a proper full time job you will have more control you should also make more money than having them self employed and it gives them security and peace of mind.

 

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Cleanco
33 minutes ago, Cghwindowcleaning said:

If someone works solely for you has no work of there own and is using your van and tools etc and have no end date for the work then they should be employed as there is clearly the work for them.

it doesn't matter what your account has told you it won't come back on him.

There are loads doing it the self employed way but it doesn't mean it's legal it just means they have never been court out.

If you offer them a proper full time job you will have more control you should also make more money than having them self employed and it gives them security and peace of mind.

 

That’s what I thought initially but the more I asked about it the more common it seems to be. I think p4dstar has hit the nail on the head with a zero hours contract. If I’m not mistaken you don’t have to offer a workplace pension or sick pay either. Not sure about holiday pay on a zero hours though. 

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Green Pro Clean Ltd
Posted (edited)
15 hours ago, Cleanco said:

I saw the owner of plimco on a tv programme about ordinary people 

with ordinary jobs that have made an extraordinary fortune. He’s loaded and doing things on a grand scale and a million miles away from what we are talking about. I know the morals are the same but you can see where I’m coming from and there are still plenty of traders doing it legally.  I’m just passing on info that I’ve been given from what I’d like to think are people in the know. 

 

I happen to have met Charlie Mullins through my best mate whom is also a London based plumber (does not work for Charlie but in same circles)  

 

Charlie is a shrewd 'del boy' character that will duck the system wherever possible, the fact that the court found against him shows that what he is doing is not generally agreeable with common legal practices.  The fact he got dragged to court was because although he had given loads of work to someone 'self employed' when that 'self employed' person all of a sudden did not find things going his way he started to cry and shout about it, pretty much biting the hand that fed him. 

 

Now before I carry on I will say that I feel qualified to comment on this as I am an employer and as well as employees (full time on the books) I also have part time staff (on the books) and subcontractors I can call on and franchisees so I have spent considerable time and and effort researching the subject, hiring accountants and engaging lawyers to draft contracts etc

However having said that I have no intention of discussing the law of the matter but more the moral and ethical side of the matter. 

 

  • Would you go to work for a 'Zero Hours Contract'  No guarantee of any work this week however if I feel like throwing you a bone you have to come running at my beck and call failure to do so will see you in breach of your contract and (although not legal) treated unfavorably regarding hours in the future?

    You Wouldn't go to work under such conditions so why expect someone else to do so? 
     
  • With all the information available on government websites and helplines it is really not difficult at all to work out someones PAYE (even easier if like us you let the accountant deal with it). Are you really so lazy that you'd rather spend your time watching East Enders than putting in an hour a week to sort out the Tax and NI of one of our most valuable assets?
     
  • You're going to advertise for someone that has all their own gear, van and knowledge of how to do the job and keep your customers happy.   This person is obviously no catch as they have 'All the gear and no idea'  or they have exactly one idea -- nick your client base!  Regardless of your 'agreement' because if you're too lazy to deal with their tax and NI then I will bet a bottle of Johnny Blue you never bothered to consult and contract and Lawyer to draft you a contract. 
     
  • You expect them to turn in every day as long as the weather is OK for work but be happy with not earning anything if the weather is a bit rough and they cant get out today.  I'll tell you exactly what they're doing the first day they realise there's no money coming in.... looking elsewhere for another job!  

Our employees are all on the books, all on full time contracts, all on a guaranteed 35 hour week, £8 per hour. £5 per day for every job list completed complaint free, £10 per day for every job sheet completed above a certain monetary value (No I wont tell you their targets) £10 for each new 'walk up' customer they sign up and £10 per week for keeping the van clean and 5.6 week paid holiday per year.  

 

I have one lad making an average of £150 in bonus alone each week but guess what?  I'm earning more thanks to the effort he puts in day in day out.  (Yes for those doing the math he's taking best part of £1800 gross pay per month) They make decent enough money each month that they are happy and I get to retain motivated, quality ASSETS! 

 

If we have a run of weather that is too bad to work then I'll just take it on the chin and they'll still get their basic pay, it's not their fault mother nature is a fickle mistress. 

 

It wasn't until I realized the value of quality employees treated right by a business that I really started to grow.  Thanks to an understanding of hiring the right people we will treble what we did last year. 

 

This has all helped with a couple of things.  1: I get to spend my time working on the business and not for the business, I haven't actually cleaned a window in nearly 3 months.  2: It has made us an actual business. What I mean by this is I could sell my business tomorrow as a working asset where a new owner could walk in and take over and due to the staff it will continue to run as smoothly for them without me here.  That's a real asset.  If I had carried on just looking for casual help, 'self employed' subs, zero hours grunts the sole value of the business would be the round and tools, same as if I had just stayed on the tools. 

 

Many out there don't want to be an employer and simply want to have a good round and in my book there is not a thing wrong with that but if you are at a stage where you are thinking you need to hire due to work-load but don't want the responsibilities of being an employer then start by culling the dregs of your round, have a price rise to drop a few whilst earning more or sell off a portion but don't mess others about with nonsense like zero hours and 'self employed' subbing etc I personally feel it's a little disrespectful.  

 

Now I know there's going to be a whole slew of 'Yeah well you know nothing, my mates dads auntie bangs this bloke that plays golf with a fellow who says......' and the likes but remember, above is simply what I think and how I operate.  Nothing more.  I have no special skills and in fact except for Rope Access, Driving Licence and Rescue Diver I don't have a single qualification to my, no GCSE not even a CSE wouldn't know what a BTEC was is you slapped me in the face with one.  What I do have though is the time and patience to learn and a willingness to do it as well as I can so please believe me (if you bothered to read this far) if I can do it anyone can! 

 

I'll leave this with one final comment.  I have always paid people smarter (more interested) than me to do the things I don't want to / like to do.  Accounts / Web Development / Contracts etc. Makes life a hell of a lot easier

 

 

Edited by Green Pro Clean Ltd

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Mabozzer

I'd still rather have a bad weather clause for the winter. Failing that it's banked hours and they'd need to work an extra few shifts during the summer to make the hours up. Or put it another way they buildup hours during the summer and get paid when it snows. That sounds better!

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Part Timer
27 minutes ago, Green Pro Clean Ltd said:

 

I happen to have met Charlie Mullins through my best mate whom is also a London based plumber (does not work for Charlie but in same circles)  

 

Charlie is a shrewd 'del boy' character that will duck the system wherever possible, the fact that the court found against him shows that what he is doing is not generally agreeable with common legal practices.  The fact he got dragged to court was because although he had given loads of work to someone 'self employed' when that 'self employed' person all of a sudden did not find things going his way he started to cry and shout about it, pretty much biting the hand that fed him. 

 

Now before I carry on I will say that I feel qualified to comment on this as I am an employer and as well as employees (full time on the books) I also have part time staff (on the books) and subcontractors I can call on and franchisees so I have spent considerable time and and effort researching the subject, hiring accountants and engaging lawyers to draft contracts etc

However having said that I have no intention of discussing the law of the matter but more the moral and ethical side of the matter. 

 

  • Would you go to work for a 'Zero Hours Contract'  No guarantee of any work this week however if I feel like throwing you a bone you have to come running at my beck and call failure to do so will see you in breach of your contract and (although not legal) treated unfavorably regarding hours in the future?

    You Wouldn't go to work under such conditions so why expect someone else to do so? 
     
  • With all the information available on government websites and helplines it is really not difficult at all to work out someones PAYE (even easier if like us you let the accountant deal with it). Are you really so lazy that you'd rather spend your time watching East Enders than putting in an hour a week to sort out the Tax and NI of one of our most valuable assets?
     
  • You're going to advertise for someone that has all their own gear, van and knowledge of how to do the job and keep your customers happy.   This person is obviously no catch as they have 'All the gear and no idea'  or they have exactly one idea -- nick your client base!  Regardless of your 'agreement' because if you're too lazy to deal with their tax and NI then I will bet a bottle of Johnny Blue you never bothered to consult and contract and Lawyer to draft you a contract. 
     
  • You expect them to turn in every day as long as the weather is OK for work but be happy with not earning anything if the weather is a bit rough and they cant get out today.  I'll tell you exactly what they're doing the first day they realise there's no money coming in.... looking elsewhere for another job!  

Our employees are all on the books, all on full time contracts, all on a guaranteed 35 hour week, £8 per hour. £5 per day for every job list completed complaint free, £10 per day for every job sheet completed above a certain monetary value (No I wont tell you their targets) £10 for each new 'walk up' customer they sign up and £10 per week for keeping the van clean and 5.6 week paid holiday per year.  

 

I have one lad making an average of £150 in bonus alone each week but guess what?  I'm earning more thanks to the effort he puts in day in day out.  (Yes for those doing the math he's taking best part of £1800 gross pay per month) They make decent enough money each month that they are happy and I get to retain motivated, quality ASSETS! 

 

If we have a run of weather that is too bad to work then I'll just take it on the chin and they'll still get their basic pay, it's not their fault mother nature is a fickle mistress. 

 

It wasn't until I realized the value of quality employees treated right by a business that I really started to grow.  Thanks to an understanding of hiring the right people we will treble what we did last year. 

 

This has all helped with a couple of things.  1: I get to spend my time working on the business and not for the business, I haven't actually cleaned a window in nearly 3 months.  2: It has made us an actual business. What I mean by this is I could sell my business tomorrow as a working asset where a new owner could walk in and take over and due to the staff it will continue to run as smoothly for them without me here.  That's a real asset.  If I had carried on just looking for casual help, 'self employed' subs, zero hours grunts the sole value of the business would be the round and tools, same as if I had just stayed on the tools. 

 

Many out there don't want to be an employer and simply want to have a good round and in my book there is not a thing wrong with that but if you are at a stage where you are thinking you need to hire due to work-load but don't want the responsibilities of being an employer then start by culling the dregs of your round, have a price rise to drop a few whilst earning more or sell off a portion but don't mess others about with nonsense like zero hours and 'self employed' subbing etc I personally feel it's a little disrespectful.  

 

Now I know there's going to be a whole slew of 'Yeah well you know nothing, my mates dads auntie bangs this bloke that plays golf with a fellow who says......' and the likes but remember, above is simply what I think and how I operate.  Nothing more.  I have no special skills and in fact except for Rope Access, Driving Licence and Rescue Diver I don't have a single qualification to my, no GCSE not even a CSE wouldn't know what a BTEC was is you slapped me in the face with one.  What I do have though is the time and patience to learn and a willingness to do it as well as I can so please believe me (if you bothered to read this far) if I can do it anyone can! 

 

I'll leave this with one final comment.  I have always paid people smarter (more interested) than me to do the things I don't want to / like to do.  Accounts / Web Development / Contracts etc. Makes life a hell of a lot easier

 

 

I've said on every post on this subject that if you want good staff then you will have to pay them a good wage. You can either pay them a good basic with a small incentive, might help the initial staff turnover, or pay minimum with large incentives. Just don't expect to get good staff paying minimum wage on zero hour contracts. 

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Clisty1989

I think the way to look at it is "if it was me going for the job what would I want". 

If I ever employ, I would have a bonus structure like @Green Pro Clean Ltd. Only difference would be they would have a contract of a minimum 16/20 hours, with scope for up to 40 hours. That way if it's a poor week they still get 16/20 hours pay, and if a good week even more to start with. Then if I'm in a position to cover more hours pay on a bad week, up there contracted hours. They get paid, and my losses are lower.

Obviously I'm not in a position to employ yet, and therefore not done a lot of research, but from the little I have read seems a happy medium.

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P4dstar
34 minutes ago, Green Pro Clean Ltd said:

 

I happen to have met Charlie Mullins through my best mate whom is also a London based plumber (does not work for Charlie but in same circles)  

 

Charlie is a shrewd 'del boy' character that will duck the system wherever possible, the fact that the court found against him shows that what he is doing is not generally agreeable with common legal practices.  The fact he got dragged to court was because although he had given loads of work to someone 'self employed' when that 'self employed' person all of a sudden did not find things going his way he started to cry and shout about it, pretty much biting the hand that fed him. 

 

Now before I carry on I will say that I feel qualified to comment on this as I am an employer and as well as employees (full time on the books) I also have part time staff (on the books) and subcontractors I can call on and franchisees so I have spent considerable time and and effort researching the subject, hiring accountants and engaging lawyers to draft contracts etc

However having said that I have no intention of discussing the law of the matter but more the moral and ethical side of the matter. 

 

  • Would you go to work for a 'Zero Hours Contract'  No guarantee of any work this week however if I feel like throwing you a bone you have to come running at my beck and call failure to do so will see you in breach of your contract and (although not legal) treated unfavorably regarding hours in the future?

    You Wouldn't go to work under such conditions so why expect someone else to do so? 
     
  • With all the information available on government websites and helplines it is really not difficult at all to work out someones PAYE (even easier if like us you let the accountant deal with it). Are you really so lazy that you'd rather spend your time watching East Enders than putting in an hour a week to sort out the Tax and NI of one of our most valuable assets?
     
  • You're going to advertise for someone that has all their own gear, van and knowledge of how to do the job and keep your customers happy.   This person is obviously no catch as they have 'All the gear and no idea'  or they have exactly one idea -- nick your client base!  Regardless of your 'agreement' because if you're too lazy to deal with their tax and NI then I will bet a bottle of Johnny Blue you never bothered to consult and contract and Lawyer to draft you a contract. 
     
  • You expect them to turn in every day as long as the weather is OK for work but be happy with not earning anything if the weather is a bit rough and they cant get out today.  I'll tell you exactly what they're doing the first day they realise there's no money coming in.... looking elsewhere for another job!  

Our employees are all on the books, all on full time contracts, all on a guaranteed 35 hour week, £8 per hour. £5 per day for every job list completed complaint free, £10 per day for every job sheet completed above a certain monetary value (No I wont tell you their targets) £10 for each new 'walk up' customer they sign up and £10 per week for keeping the van clean and 5.6 week paid holiday per year.  

 

I have one lad making an average of £150 in bonus alone each week but guess what?  I'm earning more thanks to the effort he puts in day in day out.  (Yes for those doing the math he's taking best part of £1800 gross pay per month) They make decent enough money each month that they are happy and I get to retain motivated, quality ASSETS! 

 

If we have a run of weather that is too bad to work then I'll just take it on the chin and they'll still get their basic pay, it's not their fault mother nature is a fickle mistress. 

 

It wasn't until I realized the value of quality employees treated right by a business that I really started to grow.  Thanks to an understanding of hiring the right people we will treble what we did last year. 

 

This has all helped with a couple of things.  1: I get to spend my time working on the business and not for the business, I haven't actually cleaned a window in nearly 3 months.  2: It has made us an actual business. What I mean by this is I could sell my business tomorrow as a working asset where a new owner could walk in and take over and due to the staff it will continue to run as smoothly for them without me here.  That's a real asset.  If I had carried on just looking for casual help, 'self employed' subs, zero hours grunts the sole value of the business would be the round and tools, same as if I had just stayed on the tools. 

 

Many out there don't want to be an employer and simply want to have a good round and in my book there is not a thing wrong with that but if you are at a stage where you are thinking you need to hire due to work-load but don't want the responsibilities of being an employer then start by culling the dregs of your round, have a price rise to drop a few whilst earning more or sell off a portion but don't mess others about with nonsense like zero hours and 'self employed' subbing etc I personally feel it's a little disrespectful.  

 

Now I know there's going to be a whole slew of 'Yeah well you know nothing, my mates dads auntie bangs this bloke that plays golf with a fellow who says......' and the likes but remember, above is simply what I think and how I operate.  Nothing more.  I have no special skills and in fact except for Rope Access, Driving Licence and Rescue Diver I don't have a single qualification to my, no GCSE not even a CSE wouldn't know what a BTEC was is you slapped me in the face with one.  What I do have though is the time and patience to learn and a willingness to do it as well as I can so please believe me (if you bothered to read this far) if I can do it anyone can! 

 

I'll leave this with one final comment.  I have always paid people smarter (more interested) than me to do the things I don't want to / like to do.  Accounts / Web Development / Contracts etc. Makes life a hell of a lot easier

 

 

Some of you will be able to point back to posts where I have been an advocate of taking on people as self employed... My opinion of this has largely changed due to how my little brother has been treated recently so I now agree a lot more with what you've said here mate.

 

My little bro works for a builder who has massive contracts with the likes of BT and Barclays. His lads work all over the country. Take home pay is around £300 if they're home and £520 if they're working away. They are ''self employed'' on a scheme that has been running since the 90's where the company you work for pays your tax. They submit payments direct to HMRC and confirm how much you earned that week. The lads all seem to end up with a rebate and are well chuffed when this comes through. Thats really helpful of them as they don't need to find an accountant. They also don't know to claim every pair of steelies they buy or every winter work jacket, they don't put fuel through... The list is endless. They lose a lot more through this than a decent accountant or bookkeeper would cost.

 

At the beginning of December I became an uncle for the second time. He was back to work the next day, literally the next day. He is legally entitled to £150 a week Paternity leave for 2 weeks. He wasn't told about this. It's paid by the government so wouldn't cost his boss a penny. This week he was laid off for the week as the guy has no work ready to start.... 2 young children at home to feed, doing it all legit, it just ain't fair. Yes you are correct, he is looking for another job!

 

11 minutes ago, Part Timer said:

I've said on every post on this subject that if you want good staff then you will have to pay them a good wage. You can either pay them a good basic with a small incentive, might help the initial staff turnover, or pay minimum with large incentives. Just don't expect to get good staff paying minimum wage on zero hour contracts. 

This is where I go off on a slightly different point of view.... If you fill one van that brings in £4.5k per month, less expenses it's at £3800 say, very very roughly of course. Try and take on a full timer on a permanent full time contract, 3 weeks of no work and you're in massive trouble. Take on a part timer (no pun intended) and he or she will either only want part time hours permanently or will be looking for a full time job elsewhere which leaves you at risk of losing him or her and leaving yourself with too much work.

 

Just a little side note, most good accountants will advise you are better to employ a team of part timers instead of a few full timers, less NI contributions, holidays are easier to cover, sickness is easier to cover etc. This is a strategy is taken by a lot of large UK businesses. It doesn't necessarily suit the demographic we would look to employ though which is often a family man who is the main bread winner.

 

I think for your first employee there are many circumstances where you will need to put someone on a 0 hour contract, if you can afford to then putting them on a 16 hour contract with the intention of them working 35-40 hours or whatever will be much better. The contract can be increased at a later date. Yes it isn't necessarily fair in worst case scenario's but I think as long as you intend to treat them as fairly as possible it will usually work out nicely.

 

With regards to self employed there is one simple way to look at it, if an employee came to you and said 'I ain't coming in next week because i'm bricklaying for mike down the road' would you tell them they aren't? If the answer is yes then they are employed and should be treated as such. If you have a handful of employees already and want to take on a casual worker that can be brought in when things are busy then there is no reason they have to be employed. If for example you take on a bunch of conny roof cleans and want a lad who can dip in sort them all out for you then he isn't necessarily employed, still has to agree to work on a self employed basis though. This is the same principal as me dropping someone on here a message to work a job with me, they are self employed sub contractors and I just pay them whatever we agree etc.

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Green Pro Clean Ltd
4 minutes ago, P4dstar said:

for your first employee there are many circumstances where you will need to put someone on a 0 hour contract

 

If that's how you feel honestly you aren't ready to employ.  

 

You know I follow the work smart and not hard rule but believe me I worked myself in to the ground to be ready to take on an employee , almost literally. 

 

If you're leaving the house before your kids go to school and getting home after they been put to bed (and I don't mean your teenagers) the you are about ready to figure out that you need help in the day to day and need to figure out how you're going to employ.  

 

If you're stressed cause you get to fist job at 9.30am and done by 2pm and you're having to do a whole 4 days a week then honestly don't even comment. 

 

As above, some want to build companies, others simply want a tidy round to take of them.  Either is fine and each one wont suit every one.   

 

 

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Green Pro Clean Ltd
1 minute ago, Part Timer said:

Bed time for me, I'm starting to agree to much with @Green Pro Clean Ltd

 

Subconsciously you always have, it's just more fun to convince yourself you don't!  But as I'm ALWAYS right what choice do you have?  🤣 

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Part Timer
1 minute ago, Green Pro Clean Ltd said:

 

Subconsciously you always have, it's just more fun to convince yourself you don't!  But as I'm ALWAYS right what choice do you have?  🤣 

Fairly certain I was the only one, and took plenty of abuse, that has always said that to get good staff you have to pay them accordingly. Glad you finally listened and are doing well because you did so 😘

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