Professional Tank Fitting

[Iron Giant]

Got a 425ltr compact system which is yet to be professionally fitted, I thought I'd try a local engineering company to see what they'd come up with, they said they could fabricate a sled which would be bolted through the factory fitted anchorage points then the tank would be bolted to the sled

My thinking is if they don't fit spreader plates underneath then it's going to be almost no better than just having the tank strapped in, as it will be around 600kg with the sled.

I have emailed them to confirm if they are fitting spreader plates or not, but at £900 plus fitting and the price is only valid for 24hrs due to fluctuations in steel prices

 

[Iron Giant]

Update they ain't fitting spreader plates, just putting bolts through the 6 tie down points,

My spidey sense is telling me this might not be the best option.

 

[ched999uk]

Update they ain't fitting spreader plates, just putting bolts through the 6 tie down points,

My spidey sense is telling me this might not be the best option.

When I tried to find out the loading that the tie downs could take most companies didn't say and the odd one that did it was something like 50kg.
It sounds to me like they have very little engineering knowledge. I would find someone else who might have a bit of technical knowledge. Even someone with very little engineering knowledge will know that holding down a 450kg load in a van will need a decent frame with diagonal bracing and a way of spreading the load under the floor.
I can see that they are trying not to 'modify' or damage the floor of your van by drilling through it but without spreading the load, as you say it's not really better than strapping it in. Plus £900 for making a frame seem expensive, steel isn't that expensive and it's just a bit of welding decent thick steel - which again isn't difficult.
Find someone else.

 

[Iron Giant]

When I tried to find out the loading that the tie downs could take most companies didn't say and the odd one that did it was something like 50kg.
It sounds to me like they have very little engineering knowledge. I would find someone else who might have a bit of technical knowledge. Even someone with very little engineering knowledge will know that holding down a 450kg load in a van will need a decent frame with diagonal bracing and a way of spreading the load under the floor.
I can see that they are trying not to 'modify' or damage the floor of your van by drilling through it but without spreading the load, as you say it's not really better than strapping it in. Plus £900 for making a frame seem expensive, steel isn't that expensive and it's just a bit of welding decent thick steel - which again isn't difficult.
Find someone else.

Thanks mate, I thought I'd try a local firm out of convenience and not expecting it to be anymore expensive than Purefreedom for example.

There is a place up Newcastle that @Part Timer has used their lead times is November but they know what they are doing and confirmed that they always use spreader plates as spoke to them on the phone this morning and they said they can do anything I want there prices upon on enquiring the other week was £400 to 600 dependant on the tank size.

 

[Part Timer]

Thanks mate, I thought I'd try a local firm out of convenience and not expecting it to be anymore expensive than Purefreedom for example.

There is a place up Newcastle that @Part Timer has used their lead times is November but they know what they are doing and confirmed that they always use spreader plates as spoke to them on the phone this morning and they said they can do anything I want there prices upon on enquiring the other week was £400 to 600 dependant on the tank size.

I think they're an approved Ionics installer, if not them one of the other "big" names.

 

[spruce]

Back in my Motor Trade days we used Nesmo vehicle conversions. I see they now have 3 branches on Teesside. Vehicle Conversions are located in Billingham. Don't know about fitting a WFP tank as we never had an order for one.

Nesmo Vehicle Conversions
Unit 7, Royce Ave,
Billingham,
TS23 4BX
01642 766161

 

[Iron Giant]

I think they're an approved Ionics installer, if not them one of the other "big" names.

I think they were maybe once installers for WCW and Facelift as when I was looking a while back at the compact system they listed Newcastle as a fitting location option I know they have fitted Facelift systems and of course your PF system.

 

[Iron Giant]

When I tried to find out the loading that the tie downs could take most companies didn't say and the odd one that did it was something like 50kg.
It sounds to me like they have very little engineering knowledge. I would find someone else who might have a bit of technical knowledge. Even someone with very little engineering knowledge will know that holding down a 450kg load in a van will need a decent frame with diagonal bracing and a way of spreading the load under the floor.
I can see that they are trying not to 'modify' or damage the floor of your van by drilling through it but without spreading the load, as you say it's not really better than strapping it in. Plus £900 for making a frame seem expensive, steel isn't that expensive and it's just a bit of welding decent thick steel - which again isn't difficult.
Find someone else.

Coming back to this, they have a longstanding reputation so should know what they are doing, the owner was confident the points in the van are supposed to be higher rated these days, but with their quote and what they proposed to me they are making work by building a sled which is a bigger cost that I don't need.

I had some one from the Newcastle based company phone this morning and he clearly knew what he was talking about with fitting systems, I'm pretty sure he said that the tie down points are now rated at around 500kg, he could have misheard but I doubt it, the size of the bolts in my van are quite big and about 3 inches long they were nothing like that in my previous van.

I have looked around this evening and some eyebolts can be rated in excess of 500kg from what I could understand

 

[Den]

I.G do wcw supply spreader plates and bolts nowadays as my compact system came with tekscrews and no spreaders plates.

 

[Iron Giant]

I.G do wcw supply spreader plates and bolts nowadays as my compact system came with tekscrews and no spreaders plates.

To a point yes, the bolts are about 1 inch or so long and a small plate about 1" x 2" and that's it although better than tek screws ? no idea what the rating of what is supplied would be rated at.

 

[ched999uk]

Coming back to this, they have a longstanding reputation so should know what they are doing, the owner was confident the points in the van are supposed to be higher rated these days, but with their quote and what they proposed to me they are making work by building a sled which is a bigger cost that I don't need.

I had some one from the Newcastle based company phone this morning and he clearly knew what he was talking about with fitting systems, I'm pretty sure he said that the tie down points are now rated at around 500kg, he could have misheard but I doubt it, the size of the bolts in my van are quite big and about 3 inches long they were nothing like that in my previous van.

I have looked around this evening and some eyebolts can be rated in excess of 500kg from what I could understand

Might be worth contacting the van manufacturer and asking what the tie downs are rated at. Eyebolts can be rated at 500kg but what are they fixed to is the issue. If it's tin foil then the not going to stand much load!
My research was a while back so maybe the vans tie down mounting points have been improved. I also found out that the tie downs were not rated as a vertical pull but a 45 degree angle!
Best to check with something so critical.

 

[phillip]

I have used KTD at Dunston in Gateshead 3 times now. Every time the job has been completed to a high standard with no snagging or problems. There prices are always high but with that comes peace of mind. The one thing I would recommend, would be to specify where you want your controller.
Where you want your battery located. Both for easy access.
The lead times are always long but that is cos they do a good job and are in demand.
Hope that helps fella.

 

[Iron Giant]

Might be worth contacting the van manufacturer and asking what the tie downs are rated at. Eyebolts can be rated at 500kg but what are they fixed to is the issue. If it's tin foil then the not going to stand much load!
My research was a while back so maybe the vans tie down mounting points have been improved. I also found out that the tie downs were not rated as a vertical pull but a 45 degree angle!
Best to check with something so critical.

I'd be amazed if they actually know, my thinking was they must have been uprated as in my old combo the bolts were half an inch long if that, the head on the bolts in my lingo is easily 1/2" and they took a bit to get back in as I had to remove them when removing the ply lining and then re-fit them.

 

[Iron Giant]

I have used KTD at Dunston in Gateshead 3 times now. Every time the job has been completed to a high standard with no snagging or problems. There prices are always high but with that comes peace of mind. The one thing I would recommend, would be to specify where you want your controller.
Where you want your battery located. Both for easy access.
The lead times are always long but that is cos they do a good job and are in demand.
Hope that helps fella.

Good to hear!

The Facelift systems everything is already fitted to the tank it's simply a case of bolting the tank in, the fella on the phone yesterday said they had just started 3 big fleets so the earliest was late November otherwise it could have been sooner. I don't consider their prices to be high when given the ballpark figure of £4-600 those are the current prices that suppliers are charging WCW charge £400 but I ain't travelling to Liverpool and PureFreedom charge £600 again I wouldn't want to travel down there either as you are left twiddling your thumbs all day plus the hours of driving. I'd never get back those wasted hours of my life ?

 

[ched999uk]

I'd be amazed if they actually know, my thinking was they must have been uprated as in my old combo the bolts were half an inch long if that, the head on the bolts in my lingo is easily 1/2" and they took a bit to get back in as I had to remove them when removing the ply lining and then re-fit them.

You are probably right about the manufacturers or their agents not knowing the spec as it's an easy get out in the event of them not holding!

As for size of the bolts that's not the main issue i.e. an M6 8.8 bolt has a tensile strength of about 1.6tons and M12 8.8 6.8tons! It's the material surrounding them i.e. the floor - 0.5mm mild steel can only take about 50kg per cm so if you think about the actual circumference of the tie down thread it's probably 2 maybe 3 cm so about 100 to 150kg max per tie down before the steel will rip.

That above is a very simplistic view and the floor may be thicker, will have stiffening ribs and a chassis but you get the idea?

 

[spruce]

You are probably right about the manufacturers or their agents not knowing the spec as it's an easy get out in the event of them not holding!

As for size of the bolts that's not the main issue i.e. an M6 8.8 bolt has a tensile strength of about 1.6tons and M12 8.8 6.8tons! It's the material surrounding them i.e. the floor - 0.5mm mild steel can only take about 50kg per cm so if you think about the actual circumference of the tie down thread it's probably 2 maybe 3 cm so about 100 to 150kg max per tie down before the steel will rip.

That above is a very simplistic view and the floor may be thicker, will have stiffening ribs and a chassis but you get the idea?

That's why suppliers of cash tested tanks only certificate them at 30mph.

 

[Iron Giant]

You are probably right about the manufacturers or their agents not knowing the spec as it's an easy get out in the event of them not holding!

As for size of the bolts that's not the main issue i.e. an M6 8.8 bolt has a tensile strength of about 1.6tons and M12 8.8 6.8tons! It's the material surrounding them i.e. the floor - 0.5mm mild steel can only take about 50kg per cm so if you think about the actual circumference of the tie down thread it's probably 2 maybe 3 cm so about 100 to 150kg max per tie down before the steel will rip.

That above is a very simplistic view and the floor may be thicker, will have stiffening ribs and a chassis but you get the idea?

 

[ched999uk]

View attachment 28986

Basically bolts = strong, thin steel floor = weak.

 

[Iron Giant]

Basically bolts = strong, thin steel floor = weak.

I was joking


My point about the bolts was that why would they be using bigger bolts now if there wasn't something more substantial than in previous years when a swb L1 H1 van like mine can have a payload of up to 850kg payload or higher then an assumption would be that the mounts that the tie down points are threaded into would have been more substantial like a reinforced floor area.

This morning upon reflection on all the input you lads have given which is greatly appreciated and having slept on it, I thought I'd email the local company to see what their response would be.
Morning
Apologies for the delay in replying, to be honest, my preference would be to have high-tensile bolts and appropriate spreader plates through the van floor as I haven't been able to confirm whether those tie-down points would hold up in the event of an accident, also I really didn't expect the cost of the sled to be as high plus fitting, bolting through the floor with spreader plates is the industry standard with fitting water-fed pole delivery systems as my previous PureFreedom crash tested system was fitted that way in my previous van.

To clarify on some of your points:



1, We are not water system installers we are steel fabrication company who build bespoke products for our customers, we are also CE marked to supply structural steel buildings and products to BS EN 1090 to execution class 2.



2, All bolts we use are high tensile grade 8.8 which are industry standard and the same grade that is used to hold multi story building in place.



3, When mounting anything inside of van loading areas we like to use the original tie down mounting positions as we presume during the rigorous testing the van will go through before being put into production that it has been crash tested with a secured load of the appropriate weight for the vehicle.



4, Spreader plates could be used but again these would be placed under the original mounting points as these are re enforced areas of the load bay.



5, Regarding price this will take us about 1.5 days to manufacture and professionally paint and mount the frame to your vehicle.



If your concerned about cost or the way would install it I would suggest you go back to Pure freedom to have it installed by them.

I initially appreciated his reply and his clarification of a few things which he should have done in his initial quote and felt he made a valid point about the van having reinforced areas, but is this something he knows for sure or just a presumption , the last sentence made me burst out laughing.

Now something which was interesting that I recalled today when speaking to KTD yesterday they said they would always fit spreader plates like it was very much the done thing as we would expect, but with small swb car derived vans the area where there would be a rear footwell he stated there is no access to it so no spreader plates could be fitted within that area,

So upon reflection, the 350ltr PF system I had fitted in my combo most of the bolts through the floor I can now only assume had no spreader plates at all, this isn't something that I had thought about at all.

 

[ched999uk]

I was joking


My point about the bolts was that why would they be using bigger bolts now if there wasn't something more substantial than in previous years when a swb L1 H1 van like mine can have a payload of up to 850kg payload or higher then an assumption would be that the mounts that the tie down points are threaded into would have been more substantial like a reinforced floor area.

This morning upon reflection on all the input you lads have given which is greatly appreciated and having slept on it, I thought I'd email the local company to see what their response would be.
Morning
Apologies for the delay in replying, to be honest, my preference would be to have high-tensile bolts and appropriate spreader plates through the van floor as I haven't been able to confirm whether those tie-down points would hold up in the event of an accident, also I really didn't expect the cost of the sled to be as high plus fitting, bolting through the floor with spreader plates is the industry standard with fitting water-fed pole delivery systems as my previous PureFreedom crash tested system was fitted that way in my previous van.

To clarify on some of your points:



1, We are not water system installers we are steel fabrication company who build bespoke products for our customers, we are also CE marked to supply structural steel buildings and products to BS EN 1090 to execution class 2.



2, All bolts we use are high tensile grade 8.8 which are industry standard and the same grade that is used to hold multi story building in place.



3, When mounting anything inside of van loading areas we like to use the original tie down mounting positions as we presume during the rigorous testing the van will go through before being put into production that it has been crash tested with a secured load of the appropriate weight for the vehicle.



4, Spreader plates could be used but again these would be placed under the original mounting points as these are re enforced areas of the load bay.



5, Regarding price this will take us about 1.5 days to manufacture and professionally paint and mount the frame to your vehicle.



If your concerned about cost or the way would install it I would suggest you go back to Pure freedom to have it installed by them.

I initially appreciated his reply and his clarification of a few things which he should have done in his initial quote and felt he made a valid point about the van having reinforced areas, but is this something he knows for sure or just a presumption , the last sentence made me burst out laughing.

Now something which was interesting that I recalled today when speaking to KTD yesterday they said they would always fit spreader plates like it was very much the done thing as we would expect, but with small swb car derived vans the area where there would be a rear footwell he stated there is no access to it so no spreader plates could be fitted within that area,

So upon reflection, the 350ltr PF system I had fitted in my combo most of the bolts through the floor I can now only assume had no spreader plates at all, this isn't something that I had thought about at all.

I did guess you where joking but who knows what posts Google will throw up when someone searches for stuff ?
It is an interesting subject. I'm assuming that as manufacturers seem unwilling/unable to provide load ratings for the tie downs their is no 'standard' tests so they don't want to be giving a competitor an advantage or leaving themselves open to litigation if the tie downs failed.
The car derived ones where there is a 'false floor' behind the drivers seats is an iffy one. I'm sure on some of them I have read about companies bolting all the way through to the underside and using spacers between the interior floor and the underfloor.

It really is a nightmare if you think too much about it. From what the 'engineering company' said , working on assumptions is not what engineers are trained to do, so that would make me steer well clear. Trying to get a company who are used to wfp fitting tanks seems safest.

 

[Iron Giant]

It really is a nightmare if you think too much about it. From what the 'engineering company' said , working on assumptions is not what engineers are trained to do, so that would make me steer well clear. Trying to get a company who are used to wfp fitting tanks seems safest.

I totally agree, did a quick web search and vans aren't crash tested they get awarded Bronze, Silver, Gold or Platinum based on their safety features like a lane departure warning alarm it's more about protecting other road users and pedestrians, sod the poor van driver who could be carrying up to and in excess of 1000kg