Coincidence, Or Is It Me?

[Tuffers]

In just 2 days of cleaning this week I've noticed condensation on the inside of some of the windows on 3 houses that wasn't there last clean. On 1 house yesterday I counted 5 windows that had blown! The windows aren't that old tbf. I got to a house today and the first thing the bloke said "is there much pressure in your hose?" Thinking on my feet, I said "no, it's just like a small tap." "oh, he says, we've got 4 windows that are condensated in between the glass and thought it might be your water getting in." Then I go to a house to collect payment and notice an upstairs window has blown.

Surely wfp can't be the cause can it? I'm not feeling too good about it all ATM.

Anyone else had these issues?

 

[keir]

Cant see how wfp could cause blown seals tuffers, the units are filled with an inert gas and sealed. It can only be the seal has perished, released the inert gas and let Air in therefore mists up under temperature differences, the only way i can see any chance wfp appears to make them mist up is if the unit is on the way out and the cold water on the glass reacts with the internal warm glass with the heating being on, but its not wfp fault, just that the unit is wearing out already

Just a guess mind so dont take it as if i know what i'm talking about lol

 

[scrim it]

Did they have vents above the glass?

 

[tench0771]

ive had a few windows blow sills ive hurd hot water systems can blow them easer!!!! who no's ive never had a lot tho just the odd one here an there

 

[Tuffers]

Odd ain't it. I'm sure customers are adding 2 and 2 and getting 5. No vents above. The units I've seen out of the frame have what looks like duck tape around them. Just wander if the water is getting past it?

 

[tench0771]

it is a strange one that haveing said that i had a trad job that blow a sill the custmer said can u leave that window i said yea shore or i can clean all but that top rite corner he put tape on it to stop the rain geting in so just goes to show it can b trad an wfp that can do it

 

[Midlands_Cleaners]

In just 2 days of cleaning this week I've noticed condensation on the inside of some of the windows on 3 houses that wasn't there last clean. On 1 house yesterday I counted 5 windows that had blown! The windows aren't that old tbf. I got to a house today and the first thing the bloke said "is there much pressure in your hose?" Thinking on my feet, I said "no, it's just like a small tap." "oh, he says, we've got 4 windows that are condensated in between the glass and thought it might be your water getting in." Then I go to a house to collect payment and notice an upstairs window has blown.
Surely wfp can't be the cause can it? I'm not feeling too good about it all ATM.

Anyone else had these issues?

yes iv noticed this is happening a lot since converting to wfp, obviously seals blow but nothing like the rate they do when using wfp im not slating the pole system as it how i do 90% of my work these days but id definatley say it damages the windows over time compared with tradtional methods i just think others dont like to admit it, i use hot water and had 1 house last year after about 6 months there was 5-6 different windows that had all blown and gone misty could barely see through them which led me to beleive the hot water blows windows faster.

 

[Midlands_Cleaners]

it is a strange one that haveing said that i had a trad job that blow a sill the custmer said can u leave that window i said yea shore or i can clean all but that top rite corner he put tape on it to stop the rain geting in so just goes to show it can b trad an wfp that can do it

i did read something a while about about the soap eating away at the rubber seals overtime which leads to them blowing but nothing like the rate of wfp blowin seals from my experience

 

[tench0771]

i did read something a while about about the soap eating away at the rubber seals overtime which leads to them blowing but nothing like the rate of wfp blowin seals from my experience

thats true wfp is more likely to blow them

 

[Tuffers]

yes iv noticed this is happening a lot since converting to wfp, obviously seals blow but nothing like the rate they do when using wfp im not slating the pole system as it how i do 90% of my work these days but id definatley say it damages the windows over time compared with tradtional methods i just think others dont like to admit it, i use hot water and had 1 house last year after about 6 months there was 5-6 different windows that had all blown and gone misty could barely see through them which led me to beleive the hot water blows windows faster.

I have a feeling if this continues people are going to start cancelling. You can only tell them that it's not the pole for so long until they think that it can't be anything else. I'm going to start saying we use less water on the glass than when it rains to pacify them. Thing is we drive water at the frame, seal and glass and rain doesn't.

 

[spruce]

http://www.thewindowman.co.uk/misted-up.htm

There is some very useful information on this website detailing reason why double glasing fails.

Sooner or later we will be confronted with a customer questioning (actually blaming) us for causing the problem he has. It is a good idea to learn the causes of failure so we can answer confidently and put the customers mind into another direction. We have had glazing companies blaming WFP for window units failing.

 

[Tuffers]

http://www.thewindowman.co.uk/misted-up.htm
There is some very useful information on this website detailing reason why double glasing fails.

Sooner or later we will be confronted with a customer questioning (actually blaming) us for causing the problem he has. It is a good idea to learn the causes of failure so we can answer confidently and put the customers mind into another direction. We have had glazing companies blaming WFP for window units failing.

Yes, but is it our water getting into the unit that is not properly sealed? The customer might think, sod this, this bloke is wrecking my windows and go with a trad cleaner instead. Like I say, I've noticed 3 already this week.

 

[spruce]

Unfortunately convincing a customer that it has nothing to do with us is another story. According to this website, soapy water can also cause premature seal failure. Better off without these customers is my opinion as they will always want someone to blame.

Early failure of the seals would either be a manufacturing fault, (poor workmanship and/or materials,) or not fitted correctly. I once saw some double glasing window panes removed that had been supported on triangular wedges. This meant that the outer glass was holding the weight of both panes. The glue couldn't hold the weight of the inner window pane (as it had no support) and it very quickly broke down.

I was at a customers in the summer and one of her panes was full of condensation. It was a south facing window. She says that in cooler weather the condensation between the glass is hardly noticeable. When its a hot sunny day, then it is terrible. Last time I was there it was very cold outside. The window was so good I thought it had been replaced. The owner assured me that it hadn't.

We have a couple of blown windows in our upstairs south facing bedroom . They are better when the sun is shining through the windows and it is hot.

You will usually notice that it is the south facing windows that are first to fail. If wfp was causing the problem then the north facing windows would also have as many failures.

 

[Tuffers]

You might be onto something Spruce. The houses with more than one blown window all had them on the same side of the house!

 

[Bingo]

It's a manufacturing fault of the 'Double Glazed HEAT SEALED Unit', where the sealant they use to bond the unit together has broken down, or.....where the unit has not been sealed correctly.

Triangular wedges should not be used for the exact reason Spruce mentioned above.

The wedges should be FLAT. Flat wedges are used to keep the unit off the frame so that the unit does not sit in any water in the channel, and so that the water has a means of escape. Water can seep past the 'Beading Rubbers' when these rubbers have been cut too short or shrink/perish over-time.

 

[Smurf]

Some causes of premature failure of sealed units in PVC-U and Aluminium frames.

(Wooden frames have there own different problems).

PVC-U and Aluminium frames share similar frame arrangements:

• The double glazed sealed unit should sit on glazing blocks, not directly on the frame itself, and both panes should be supported equally to prevent "slippage". These glazing blocks should not just be flat frame packers, but should be of the 'bridge' type, which means that water getting past the outer gaskets (as it does) will have a route to escape.
  

• The bottom of the framework should be drained, either through holes "hidden" from view where any water runs out onto the cill, or visible "face" drainage.
  

• The perimeter of the double glazing glass is well ventilated within the framework, as air enters and circulates from the drainage holes.
  

• Clip in beads hold the double glazed glass sealed unit in the frame, preventing most water ingress, with a gasket or double sided tape the other side.
  

There are variations of the above, but that is the common principle.

When a double glazed sealed unit fails...

It is often said that a sealed unit "is blown" or "has gone misty", etc. This means that a fault, and it may only be a pinhole to start with, like a small puncture, has developed somewhere in its perimeter, and moisture is getting inside and between the two panes of glass. At different times of the year there will be different amounts of moisture in the atmosphere, and even in the hottest of balmy summer days the atmosphere that we breathe has a moisture content (humidity). With changes in sonic and atmospheric pressure being put upon the 'sealed' unit, moisture will be drawn in to mix with the otherwise arid interior of the unit through this breach. As temperatures change the moisture will condense into a liquid, which will continue to build up and up, as the liquid cannot escape anywhere as easily as the moisture that is being drawn in. I have seen sealed units that have had several inches of water laying at the bottom of them because the unit is acting like a tank! When sealed units are manufactured they are not designed to be taken apart again in the future, and therefore in practice they cannot be economically cleaned and put back together. When a sealed unit has failed it will need replacing, and the old glass is usually just scrapped.

The most common causes of premature failure in this type of frame are:

Not sealed correctly during manufacture:If a sealed unit is not fully sealed all the way round, or not sealed properly, the unit is likely to fail within a relatively short time scale, and this will be normally within a year or so.

Not seated correctly on glazing blocks difficult to be exact about to what extent this will contribute to premature failure, as each case will vary. Worst case would be if drainage was blocked altogether with even a small amount water getting in, which could reduce the life of a 'good' unit by around 50% in terms of its otherwise fair life expectancy, see below.

Exterior seals not fitting correctly, letting water in:Again, similar to above, but if some of the water getting in contains washing up liquid or similar, then this will attack and degrade the perimeter seal, usually along the bottom edge. Anything stuck together will come apart quicker if immersed in water, and even quicker if that water contains a solvent or any oil based contaminants.

Flexing of the framework:Very difficult to quantify, but any pressures put upon the sealed unit will not do it any good at all. Installations most at risk are those of the frames which go to make up the structure of a Conservatory, which should always be fully reinforced if PVC-U to help reduce flexing caused by wind loads.

MOST IMPORTANT:


1. One of the BIGGEST mistakes a window supplier or the fitter on site can make is in the use of solid 'flat' packers to sit the glass unit on. All sealed units NEED to be sitting on 'bridge' packers, that is so that any water ingress past the outside gasket will have ready access to egress out through the drainage system of the frame. The use of solid 'flat' packers, and often blocking drainage may well be the biggest single cause of premature sealed unit failure that we see today. Leaded designs let even more water past the outer gasket because of the bumps the lead causes on the outer pane of glass.


2. Any company that (wrongly) does not use bridge packers should at least make certain that their fitters are trained in the correct placement of their flat packers (I.E. inside of the drainage slots, and certainly not over them), AND should also engineer the frames so as to have a drainage slot in between the packers in the middle, as well as at each end.

In old aluminium frames the often used glazing block was with a soft packer, and very often not fitted properly at 90 degrees to the unit, (looked like a piece of 'Spanish'), and this has proved to be a disaster, as the unit will inevitably fail prematurely due to the soft glazing packer pressing into the edge seal.

Misted up double glazed sealed units in wooden frames.


Link to read more http://www.thewindowman.co.uk/misty-wood.htm

 

[Bingo]

Ooops . That what I meant to say about the glazing packers....they're flat on top where the glazed unit sits on but bridged where the packer sits on the frame.

Nice find Smurf......spot-on /emoticons/smile.png.

 

[keir]

I was at a customers in the summer and one of her panes was full of condensation. It was a south facing window. She says that in cooler weather the condensation between the glass is hardly noticeable. When its a hot sunny day, then it is terrible. Last time I was there it was very cold outside. The window was so good I thought it had been replaced. The owner assured me that it hadn't.

Thats exactly the same as one of my front room windows which is south facing, it starts to mist from centre outwards. I bet it does it about 10 days a year only, and been doing it for years

 

[Duncs]

customer pulled me last week pointed to her window only done her windows once i then mentioned her other windows blown

i was,int ready for her at all. i told her the seals was knackered.

the thing is when i,m rinsing I keep the water pressure low

 

[Tuffers]

Another two windows next to each other blown on one house today. I know we're not supposed to be at fault for this, but in the customers eyes we are contributing to the problem. What I mean is, if I were tradding them it wouldn't happen. Cancellations have to be on the horizon!?

Oh and I legged it before she noticed as they really did steam up while cleaning them.

 

[keir]

Mmmmmmm not good pal!!! Are you using hot or cold, cant remember.