DE and PS calibration problem

[Aqua]

If the problem is its activating the pressure switch when you stop the flow then I don't really see a problem in your system? All you need to do is lower your calibration setting as its just set higher than the pressure switch at the moment. 

If your calibration is around 70 or more then the PS will always activate first on my experience. I personally don't see this as a problem as I think the controllers auto calibration setting is too low to work efficiently with. I know window cleaners who don't even use a controller so for them it will always activate the PS. 

If you had an obstruction in your system you would be able to tell with the flow on. 

If I understand what your saying I think your looking for a problem that is not there

 

[Iron Giant]

I would leave the adjustment screw on the pump as it is.

I would just reduce the calibration on your controller to a lower amount that suits your application and work practice.

The pressure switch is there as an added backup but shouldn't work at all. The controller should be doing the work.

Thank you, good sir 

 

[Ian Sheppard]

Hi Steve. As above comments if calibration is set high and with a high flow I would expect the pump pressure switch to activate before the controller can dead end the pump when the valve is closed. The controller does not activate the pump pressure switch the PS message is the controller saying that high pressure has caused to Pressure switch to activate. When the pole valve is opened again pressure falls and the pressure switch closes with the pump restarting.

Ideally Calibration should be set so that the controller dead ends the pump when the pole valve is closed.

Re your comment on the controller displaying PS after a 20 -30 minute break this would suggest to me that the system is under high pressure and that the pressure needs to dissipate on the valve being opened before the system will restart. In terms of lower temperature this effects now water flows ( Its Viscosity ) Oil is a good example of the effect of heat, Cold oil loves slowly, heat it up and the liquid becomes thinner and flows better. Low temps means the pump has to work harder to move the water. Another factor is the hose wall when colder it is slower to expand and expands less again causing the pump to work harder. In these circumstances you will find calibration needs to be higher ( less sensitive ) than it would be in the summer months.

My suggestion is before you run auto cal, set the flow rate to the level you would normally use EG 50, 60, - 70 ...... then run auto cal. This will give a more accurate calibration based on your actual flow rates. when the controller is calibrating it starts at 99 and works downward.

Check all the valves are fully open and that there are no loose or misaligned hose connectors, Something as small as an O ring out of place can create a restriction,

In the morning my spring controller has been callibratong itself,rather annoying waiting for it to sort itself out for a few minutes.   my old analogue controller didnt give me this problem,but it burnt out. 

Anyway at end of the day, i have detached the pole hole from the pole(univalve fitted)  n it seems to be working normally without having to calibrate itself.  so perhaps try that?

Passed couple of days i have 

Hi Windsurfer, As removing the hose from the univalve sorts the issue, Check that the valve is fully opening. If its not fully opening there will be a restriction in the nose that effects flow and pressure meaning the pump is working harder, This will impact on the controller calibration as it is looking to set based on how hard the pump is working.

 

[Ian Sheppard]

Here is a link that talks more on viscosity and the effects of colder temperatures.  http://springltd.co/blog/76/low-temperature-and-wfp-systems

 

[Steve Mcknight]

Hi Steve. As above comments if calibration is set high and with a high flow I would expect the pump pressure switch to activate before the controller can dead end the pump when the valve is closed. The controller does not activate the pump pressure switch the PS message is the controller saying that high pressure has caused to Pressure switch to activate. When the pole valve is opened again pressure falls and the pressure switch closes with the pump restarting.

Ideally Calibration should be set so that the controller dead ends the pump when the pole valve is closed.

Re your comment on the controller displaying PS after a 20 -30 minute break this would suggest to me that the system is under high pressure and that the pressure needs to dissipate on the valve being opened before the system will restart. In terms of lower temperature this effects now water flows ( Its Viscosity ) Oil is a good example of the effect of heat, Cold oil loves slowly, heat it up and the liquid becomes thinner and flows better. Low temps means the pump has to work harder to move the water. Another factor is the hose wall when colder it is slower to expand and expands less again causing the pump to work harder. In these circumstances you will find calibration needs to be higher ( less sensitive ) than it would be in the summer months.

My suggestion is before you run auto cal, set the flow rate to the level you would normally use EG 50, 60, - 70 ...... then run auto cal. This will give a more accurate calibration based on your actual flow rates. when the controller is calibrating it starts at 99 and works downward.

Check all the valves are fully open and that there are no loose or misaligned hose connectors, Something as small as an O ring out of place can create a restriction,

Hi Windsurfer, As removing the hose from the univalve sorts the issue, Check that the valve is fully opening. If its not fully opening there will be a restriction in the nose that effects flow and pressure meaning the pump is working harder, This will impact on the controller calibration as it is looking to set based on how hard the pump is working.

Hi Ian.

Just one more thing I found out that is unusual about my system is that when I stop the water flow at univalve or end of hose reel I've noticed the DE takes up to 18 seconds. I've read that it should be about 4 seconds.  What would that suggest to you?

 

[Ian Sheppard]

Hi Ian.

Just one more thing I found out that is unusual about my system is that when I stop the water flow at univalve or end of hose reel I've noticed the DE takes up to 18 seconds. I've read that it should be about 4 seconds.  What would that suggest to you?

In order to know when to DE yhe pump the controller is looking at how hard it is working. In open flow it will draw a steady continuous ampage. When the valve is closed the pump attempts to work against the restriction and has to work harder. The controller detects this change and dead ends the pump.

When the controller is calibrated to the pump we are in effect telling the controller what the open flow work load on the pump is. The higher the Calibration the less sensitive the controller is and the longer it will take for the controller to DE the pump

The long period taken to DE the pump suggests that the calibration value is to high for the flow setting. Before you run auto cal set the controller flow rate to your preferred setting then run auto cal. If you find the pump cycles in/out of DE manually increase the cal value by 5. ( EG from 30 to 35)

Another possible factor is that the pole valve is not fully closing and allowing some water to flow through this will also delay the controller dead ending the pump

 

[spruce]

Sorry Spruce probably a stupid question. When you said van port - hose reel. could you just clarify which connection is the van port?

My setup is water tank - pump - vessel- reel.

Thanks.

Sorry, I meant to comment on this earlier.

A van port is the hose connection at the back of the van. More and more windies are fixing their hose reels inside and operating with the rear doors open. In that case those windies wouldn't have a van port.

Here is an example of a van port which is usually screwed under the rear bumper.

https://windowcleaningwarehouse.co.uk/products/facelift-van-ports

I'm just wondering if your di vessel is causing a problem. It shouldn't be. Can you 'remove it from the system and see if the system works better. So the setup would be tank - pump - hose reel.

 

[Steve Mcknight]

Sorry, I meant to comment on this earlier.

A van port is the hose connection at the back of the van. More and more windies are fixing their hose reels inside and operating with the rear doors open. In that case those windies wouldn't have a van port.

Here is an example of a van port which is usually screwed under the rear bumper.

https://windowcleaningwarehouse.co.uk/products/facelift-van-ports

I'm just wondering if your di vessel is causing a problem. It shouldn't be. Can you 'remove it from the system and see if the system works better. So the setup would be tank - pump - hose reel.

Hi Spruce. Thanks for info.

I removed and ran the system without the vessel when I changed the pump. Also replaced large o ring and small o ring on the input male connector as had a slow drip.  So as things stand the system is 100% water tight.  

I did get the 2mm Allen key in today and gave the PS a 360 turn counterclockwise. This did seem to stop the PS warning message and it ran great for a few hours on a flow rate of 34 and cal of 40. But after a break of 15 mins and starting my last job PS appeared again. So I'm hoping it just needs a little more fine tuning over the next few days. 

Failing that.. I will need to replace the hose reel and inlet manifold as reel is old and has been cut down to about 70 metres over the years. 

If DE and PS problems still persist after that then I'm thinking of having controller -.pump rewired.

Then if need be a new controller.

 

[spruce]

Hi Spruce. Thanks for info.

I removed and ran the system without the vessel when I changed the pump. Also replaced large o ring and small o ring on the input male connector as had a slow drip.  So as things stand the system is 100% water tight.  

I did get the 2mm Allen key in today and gave the PS a 360 turn counterclockwise. This did seem to stop the PS warning message and it ran great for a few hours on a flow rate of 34 and cal of 40. But after a break of 15 mins and starting my last job PS appeared again. So I'm hoping it just needs a little more fine tuning over the next few days. 

Failing that.. I will need to replace the hose reel and inlet manifold as reel is old and has been cut down to about 70 metres over the years. 

If DE and PS problems still persist after that then I'm thinking of having controller -.pump rewired.

Then if need be a new controller.

I'm sure there must be a fellow friendly Windie near you who would let you couple up a known good hose reel onto your system to try. If the hose is old then there is every possibility that there is s restriction internally. Over time running the hose across a busy road could cause damage.

 

[Iron Giant]

Dodgy hose fittings can allow air into the system thus causing a PS reading, which has been my past experience and the only time previously when I had a PS reading on my old system, which is why I had recommended run the pump flat out to flush out any air in the system, I don't have any hozelock style fittings on my system at all 

 

[Ian Sheppard]

I'm sure there must be a fellow friendly Windie near you who would let you couple up a known good hose reel onto your system to try. If the hose is old then there is every possibility that there is s restriction internally. Over time running the hose across a busy road could cause damage.

Hi Steve I would agree with Spruce here that the older hose is causing a restriction. Particularly in view that adjusting the pump pressure switch had such a positive impact. It would appear that your pump had the pressure cut off set low.In terms of the controller with your flow rates I would think auto cal would settle somewhere in the 35 - 50 range. But the hose will have effect this too. 

From your description the controller is working as I would expect and both DE and PS are in response to the way the system is working. The PS message is in response to the pump pressure switch activating. Its likely the hose/reel as you have found are the likely culprits, That said you may find fine tune on the pressure switch adjuster will solve this.

On terms of setting cal I would suggest setting your flow rate at 40 then run auto cal.

 

[Steve Mcknight]

Hi Steve I would agree with Spruce here that the older hose is causing a restriction. Particularly in view that adjusting the pump pressure switch had such a positive impact. It would appear that your pump had the pressure cut off set low.In terms of the controller with your flow rates I would think auto cal would settle somewhere in the 35 - 50 range. But the hose will have effect this too. 

From your description the controller is working as I would expect and both DE and PS are in response to the way the system is working. The PS message is in response to the pump pressure switch activating. Its likely the hose/reel as you have found are the likely culprits, That said you may find fine tune on the pressure switch adjuster will solve this.

On terms of setting cal I would suggest setting your flow rate at 40 then run auto cal.

Ok thanks very much for assistance chaps.

I'll let you know how I get on.

 

[Steve Mcknight]

Hi guys,

Replaced the inlet manifold and hose today and after testing I still got the PS kicking in after being on dead end for five mins. So I'm highly suspicious that air is getting sucked in somewhere on one of the pre pump connections.

I've read that just because they're water tight doesn't mean they're air tight. 

So if my thinking is correct I'm guessing I'll need to drain the tank over the holidays before working at these connections but before I do I'm wondering is there any simple test I can perform that would reveal if air is being sucked in?

Thanks.

 

[Iron Giant]

Hi guys,

Replaced the inlet manifold and hose today and after testing I still got the PS kicking in after being on dead end for five mins. So I'm highly suspicious that air is getting sucked in somewhere on one of the pre pump connections.

I've read that just because they're water tight doesn't mean they're air tight. 

So if my thinking is correct I'm guessing I'll need to drain the tank over the holidays before working at these connections but before I do I'm wondering is there any simple test I can perform that would reveal if air is being sucked in?

Thanks.

No real test that I know off, just a process of elimination ensuring all fittings jubilee clips etc are fully tightened up along with all hozelock connections and changing all hozelock fittings, the plastic ones do wear under pressure, but appear to be just fine.

Do you not have one of these Tank Isolating Tap fitted to the outlet of your tank 

 

[spruce]

Hi guys,

Replaced the inlet manifold and hose today and after testing I still got the PS kicking in after being on dead end for five mins. So I'm highly suspicious that air is getting sucked in somewhere on one of the pre pump connections.

I've read that just because they're water tight doesn't mean they're air tight. 

So if my thinking is correct I'm guessing I'll need to drain the tank over the holidays before working at these connections but before I do I'm wondering is there any simple test I can perform that would reveal if air is being sucked in?

Thanks.

If air is being such in it will only be at one of the joints before the pump.

But you will notice the flow of water from the jets will splutter if you have air being sucked in. 

The only time you will get air being sucked in is when the water in the tank drops to below the level of the pump and you have a bad joint. If you have a full tank and the level is above the pump then water will flow into the pump by means of gravity.

You will notice that the connectors on the filter and pump are conical so they don't need ptfe sealing tape. We use the Shurflo hose connectors and I use O clips on the hose from the tank. I use plastic reinforced clear hose to the pumps on my van. I always put the hose in boiling water to soften it and crimp up the o clips before the hose gets cold.

If I were you I would remove the pressure switch from your electrical circuit and wire the controller directly to the pump. 

Then run the system at the flow you work with with the pole connected and extended. Then auto calibrate the controller.

If the system works and doesn't over pressurise then I would leave it at that.

As I've said, it's not the end of the world of the pressure switch isn't connected. I've run our Varistreams for around 14 years without the pressure switch in the circuit. 

One of the local cleaners was having a controller issue and asked for help. When I bypassed the pressure switch and coupled the controller directly to the pump the problem when away. That was a good 5 years ago and he is still running the same setup.

 

[spruce]

Seeing that @Ian Sheppard is around; is it possible for the electronics in the controller to become more sensitive to current draw thus closing the gap between DE and PS? I always felt either the electronics that monitor current draw either work or they don't.

I have never heard of anyone say their controller calibration function has failed but the flow function still works.

As far as I gather over the years, the most common failures for controllers are water ingress (unusual) or reverse polarity (usually). In both cases the controller fails to work completely.

This fault has me confused. I can see a Pressure switch 'fault' because the pressure switch has been adjusted. We could adjust the pressure switch to operate at about 65psi. If @Steve Mcknight needs 60 psi to operate his system at his desired flow then there will be an issue with calibration. But with a new pump doing the same it just does seem to be strange as no one has messed with the ps adjustment on the new pump.

 

[Ian Sheppard]

Hi Steve. One other thing comes to mind. Is the air vent on the top of the tank clear and open. Usually the air vent is a hole in the tank lid. If the air vent is blocked this could create the situation your seeing as vacuum can be created in the tank. With the air vent open as the pump pulls water out of the tank air fills the space. With the vent blocked a Vacuum is created in the tank and this can effect the amount of pressure in the system

Beyond that I would agree with Spruce in terms of air getting into the system.

In terms of the system operation each is different and respond to flow stopped in different ways. If your leaving flow stopped for 5 minutes or so initially the pump will be dead ended by the controller, after a prolonged period in DE its possible pressure will build up and the pump pressure switch then activates. This is not a big issue as there is little load on the pump pressure switch and the controller has already stopped the pump by dead ending it. 

If the Pump pressure switch activates after 5 minutes with the tap open and water flowing I would suggest turn cal value down slightly. In the end though each system is different, as long as the pump is restarted when you open the tap with both the PS and DE messages going off I would not worry to much.

Have a good Christmas & new year break

 

[Ian Sheppard]

Seeing that @Ian Sheppard is around; is it possible for the electronics in the controller to become more sensitive to current draw thus closing the gap between DE and PS? I always felt either the electronics that monitor current draw either work or they don't.

I have never heard of anyone say their controller calibration function has failed but the flow function still works.

As far as I gather over the years, the most common failures for controllers are water ingress (unusual) or reverse polarity (usually). In both cases the controller fails to work completely.

This fault has me confused. I can see a Pressure switch 'fault' because the pressure switch has been adjusted. We could adjust the pressure switch to operate at about 65psi. If @Steve Mcknight needs 60 psi to operate his system at his desired flow then there will be an issue with calibration. But with a new pump doing the same it just does seem to be strange as no one has messed with the ps adjustment on the new pump.

Hi Spruce.

Yes you are spot on in terms of the causes of a controller failure and causes they usually work or dont. In Steve's case I feel the controller is working normally and is responding to the system.

To answer your question on the current draw there is usually a fairly large gap between the current required to DE the pump and the pump PS being activated. However Setting flow and Cal high to high could reduce that gap as setting calibration higher makes the controller less sensitive. Also altering the pump PS down below the factory setting of 90 - 100psi would also reduce this gap because now the pump is more sensitive to high current. In Steve's Case with a flow in the 35 - 40 range, Cal will probably be in the 30 - 35 range. A combination than of higher cal and adjusting the pump PS below factory settings could then see either the pump PS switch activate before DE or the controller initially DE the pump and then after a period in DE the pump PS could activate

In my mind the question is. 1. weather the pump is being DE by the controller in response to flow being stopped and then the pump PS opens after a period of the pump being in dead end. In which case as long as the controller switches the pump on flow being restored is not an issue

Or. 2.  Is the pump presure switch activating while the system is in open flow. If its the second one then possibilities are there is a blockage, pump PS has been adjusted to low, The tank air vent is blocked.  Air is leaking into the system, Blocked pump pre filter. Another possible which depends on if Steve has a DI before the pump is resin beads getting into the pump head.

As above a blocked tank air vent can create a Vacuum in the tank that would effect pressure.

I think my suggestion would be to ensure the pump pressure switch is adjusted to its max factory setting, Then set flow rate to the preferred flow before running auto cal.

Have a great Christmas and New Year

 

[Steve Mcknight]

No real test that I know off, just a process of elimination ensuring all fittings jubilee clips etc are fully tightened up along with all hozelock connections and changing all hozelock fittings, the plastic ones do wear under pressure, but appear to be just fine.

Do you not have one of these Tank Isolating Tap fitted to the outlet of your tank 

Hi guys,

Thanks for the replies. Just keep in mind from my original posts that my previous pump didn't have a PS and I was having a DE and calibration issue which caused me to replace the pump. So I'm thinking yes I can remove the PS and carry on. 

But the DE will remain an issue.

I want the system to start everyday as it should without having to recalibrate. 

So anyhow..

I've checked the two connections that I'm suspect of and included pics. 

People will think I'm a sad b*st*rd if I start working at this now so I'll be strong and resist the urge by waiting until Friday.

I'll let you know how I get on. 

Have a great holiday guys.

 

[Iron Giant]

@Steve Mcknight I would have a single piece of hose and use a jubilee clip around the tank outlet as they can tightened right up but also very easy to remove if you need to change anything. 

 

[Steve Mcknight]

@Steve Mcknight I would have a single piece of hose and use a jubilee clip around the tank outlet as they can tightened right up but also very easy to remove if you need to change anything. 

Hello Iron Giant!

By means of a test I wrapped the two connections  in gorilla tape and there was an immediate change of behaviour.. 

The system started immediately after being idle a while. The DE from the controller kicked in after 4 seconds (was 12-18) and it remained on DE for about 20 mins. 

But on a second test it partially reverted back to its original behaviour..(possibly because of tape not holding)

Displayed PS after being left for 20 or so mins and Dead ending went up to 9-10 seconds. So, many thanks to yourself, Spruce and Ian for pointing me in the right direction.

My conclusion is that air is being sucked in at the tank outlet(water tight but not air tight) by the pump thus causing communication problems controller - pump. 

I'll know for sure when I address it today by either replacing or refitting the tank outlet. And also a new single piece of hose as I see no need for that second connection.

Many thanks guys.