Decision time

[Danfire]

Been tradding for a couple of years and need to make a decision about where I take the business from here. Window cleaning is not my full time job, it gives me about three days a week which is about as much as I can handle. I've got someone starting next week, that should allow me to take on a few more customers (or drop my workload a bit). What I need to decide is; is it worth making the investment in a van and wfp setup? Even with a wfp setup I would not want to be working more than two or three days per week, if it was my full time job it would be a no brainer. What I need to know is how much extra can I realistically be expecting to earn with the wfp setup?

 

[Tuffers]

I found that after I got used to WFP my hourly rate doubled. Would I go back to ladders? No freekin chance!

 

[Dave B]

You must have been slow at trad then @Tuffers

I have a better hourly income now i made the switch though

I would start with a diy trolley and expand on it if needed as for normal houses it is good enough..and a lot cheaper

 

[Tuffers]

You must have been slow at trad then @Tuffers

You must be slow at WFP then Davey /emoticons/tongue.png

 

[Green Pro Clean Ltd]

Why do you insist on asking impossible questions Danfire? And it's not just Danfire there are plenty that do it.

If you buy this if you buy that how much more money will you make? How long is that piece of string? Is today the day I win the Lottery? Who the hell knows?

You think you are now in a position to take someone on yet window cleaning is not yet you full time occupation, why oh why would you want to take on someone to do a task you are not yourself fully yet committed to?

What area do you live in? Is it a $hit hole where £4-5 per house is all you can expect or is it all footballers mansions where you can charge £100 per job?

I used to have a lad here called Micky, demonic tradder, he WILL NOT use WFP as he does not consider that true window cleaning, he will only trad on his ladder.

When working for me he would turn out an average of £32 per hour, 6 hours per day £192 per day, I paid him £10 per hour lets say we put aside a very generous £32 for petrol, vehicle costs replacement scrims and the likes and I still profited by £100 per day from Micky.

So in short if you hire Micky to work for you and buy a WFP set up you will make nothing cause he wont use it, if you give him a squeegee and ladder he will earn you £100 per day profit providing you can find the work for him.

At what point do you dip into your other jobs earnings to pay your lads a bit when the weather is so bad they cant work? Cause if they aint earning they aint eating and they aint staying!

Can you canvass enough work to warrant an extra lad? Even if you have him cheap, say £50 per day 4 days per week you need to pay him £200 per week, £800 per month (based on 4 week month) so including fuel tools etc he is probably costing you closer to £950. That's £11'400 per year just for a lad to help out a few days a week.

So at £10 per job that is 95 new customers you need to solicit on a monthly basis JUST TO PAY the new guy before you have earnt a penny.

Are you willing to take care of his taxes and NI payments every month, the law has changed, now even with just one part time employee you will have to have a pension plan for him.

I now truly believe for all the extra crap you have to go through just to get one lad on the books there is no point if you just want a little help, you may as well trim down so you can manage.

If you are going to take on one, you may as well plan to take on 50 cause at the end of it the paperwork is still about the same.

I once made a quip about why bother when chatting to a cleaning chap that told me his boss had 300 employees out there cleaning floors at £7.50 per hour, at the time minimum wage was £6.25 per hour, I made the point of why waste the effort for just £1.25 per hour? He replied he doesn't, he makes the effort for £375 per hour. That is when the light bulb went on in my head.

Well that's my advice for what it's worth.

 

[Dave B]

I agree with a lot of that @Green but he is a fireman so as long as it hasn't changed since my mum left the service he will do 2 days 2 nights and 4 off

All the firefighters i know work a 2nd job of some sort as it is an ideal job to do that with. .couple days and then 2 off like we would for a weekend

 

[Danfire]

You must have been slow at trad then @Tuffers
I have a better hourly income now i made the switch though

I would start with a diy trolley and expand on it if needed as for normal houses it is good enough..and a lot cheaper

You must have been slow at trad then @Tuffers
I have a better hourly income now i made the switch though

I would start with a diy trolley and expand on it if needed as for normal houses it is good enough..and a lot cheaper

That's a possibility, I use a backpack for windows I can't access off ladders. If I invested in the equipment to make water I could try doing it all from the backp

Why do you insist on asking impossible questions Danfire? And it's not just Danfire there are plenty that do it.
If you buy this if you buy that how much more money will you make? How long is that piece of string? Is today the day I win the Lottery? Who the hell knows?

You think you are now in a position to take someone on yet window cleaning is not yet you full time occupation, why oh why would you want to take on someone to do a task you are not yourself fully yet committed to?

What area do you live in? Is it a $hit hole where £4-5 per house is all you can expect or is it all footballers mansions where you can charge £100 per job?

I used to have a lad here called Micky, demonic tradder, he WILL NOT use WFP as he does not consider that true window cleaning, he will only trad on his ladder.

When working for me he would turn out an average of £32 per hour, 6 hours per day £192 per day, I paid him £10 per hour lets say we put aside a very generous £32 for petrol, vehicle costs replacement scrims and the likes and I still profited by £100 per day from Micky.

So in short if you hire Micky to work for you and buy a WFP set up you will make nothing cause he wont use it, if you give him a squeegee and ladder he will earn you £100 per day profit providing you can find the work for him.

At what point do you dip into your other jobs earnings to pay your lads a bit when the weather is so bad they cant work? Cause if they aint earning they aint eating and they aint staying!

Can you canvass enough work to warrant an extra lad? Even if you have him cheap, say £50 per day 4 days per week you need to pay him £200 per week, £800 per month (based on 4 week month) so including fuel tools etc he is probably costing you closer to £950. That's £11'400 per year just for a lad to help out a few days a week.

So at £10 per job that is 95 new customers you need to solicit on a monthly basis JUST TO PAY the new guy before you have earnt a penny.

Are you willing to take care of his taxes and NI payments every month, the law has changed, now even with just one part time employee you will have to have a pension plan for him.

I now truly believe for all the extra **** you have to go through just to get one lad on the books there is no point if you just want a little help, you may as well trim down so you can manage.

If you are going to take on one, you may as well plan to take on 50 cause at the end of it the paperwork is still about the same.

I once made a quip about why bother when chatting to a cleaning chap that told me his boss had 300 employees out there cleaning floors at £7.50 per hour, at the time minimum wage was £6.25 per hour, I made the point of why waste the effort for just £1.25 per hour? He replied he doesn't, he makes the effort for £375 per hour. That is when the light bulb went on in my head.

Well that's my advice for what it's worth.

Thanks for the reply Green, that's given me some food for thought, I will try to answer some of your points and explain my situation; I live in a pretty affluent area where folk seem to be quite happy to pay a decent rate to have their windows cleaned. There seems to be no shortage of new people phoning me up or approaching me when I'm cleaning to get theirs done as well, it would appear that quite a few cleaners have retired or moved on and as each new job comes in it leads to all the others that the previous cleaners did. Even though the window cleaning pays at least double the hourly rate of my full time job I'm so long invested into a pension scheme that I have to see it through so can't Jack it in and go full time cleaning. I've got to the point where I'm struggling to keep up with what I've already got hence taking on a self employed partner. What I was trying to calculate was would it be a financial advantage to have the expense of the van and WFP setup when at best I could only get it going for three days per week. If, as some have suggested, I could double my hourly rate, ie WFP is twice as fast then the numbers could add up, I am confident I can generate the extra clients. Hope that explains things a bit clearer.

 

[Dave B]

If you used a backpack on a trolley with a decent amount of hose then doing whole houses is a piece of cake..i use a pump and battery in a box on a trolley with a 25l drum and that is quick

I am getting a van and going to have a tank in it but use a diy trolley as my van mount..will all be good quality parts but there are so many houses with parking or access issues in this town it is easier a lot of the time to just take trolley through the house or walk it down the road rather than trying to use a big reel of hose

That way the trolley comes out when needed or stays in the van as my pump setup if using from the van

This is how some guys i know do it and works well

 

[spruce]

That's a possibility, I use a backpack for windows I can't access off ladders. If I invested in the equipment to make water I could try doing it all from the backp
Thanks for the reply Green, that's given me some food for thought, I will try to answer some of your points and explain my situation; I live in a pretty affluent area where folk seem to be quite happy to pay a decent rate to have their windows cleaned. There seems to be no shortage of new people phoning me up or approaching me when I'm cleaning to get theirs done as well, it would appear that quite a few cleaners have retired or moved on and as each new job comes in it leads to all the others that the previous cleaners did. Even though the window cleaning pays at least double the hourly rate of my full time job I'm so long invested into a pension scheme that I have to see it through so can't Jack it in and go full time cleaning. I've got to the point where I'm struggling to keep up with what I've already got hence taking on a self employed partner. What I was trying to calculate was would it be a financial advantage to have the expense of the van and WFP setup when at best I could only get it going for three days per week. If, as some have suggested, I could double my hourly rate, ie WFP is twice as fast then the numbers could add up, I am confident I can generate the extra clients. Hope that explains things a bit clearer.

As @Green said earlier, you have to be fully committed. You are either pregnant or not. You can't be half pregnant.

What you are doing is cleaning windows for pocket money, albeit a higher hourly rate than you current job.

What happens if you generate the work and then your new employee (forget partner) leaves you to develop his own round so he can pocket everything he earns? It becomes your reputation on the line, not the employee's.

As an employer, you now have to pay toward pension and other benefits. The cost of employing goes up even more.

 

[Green Pro Clean Ltd]

Excuse me for not connecting the dots as far as current occupation goes.

I have nothing but admiration for those in your profession.

HOWEVER next time you are putting out a blaze in a restaurant kitchen please clean up after yourself, I'm still snorting soot a week later! /emoticons/tongue.png

With new pension laws for employees pensions should be transferable. Perhaps approach a local accountant as they will give you a free 30 minutes consult and they will know about the pension side.

Partner = no no. They think they are then entitled to part of everything you have built . Are you willing to risk that?

 

[Dave B]

I had a business partner once while doing this in london. .it doesn't work whatsoever

Anyway just going in to see jimmy carr now..laters peeps

 

[SolarPanelCleaning]

Take on two guys. (One initially)5 days a week. Spend what time you have getting in more work and checking up on them?

 

[Jake]

If your staying part time, I wouldn't bother with wfp, loads more hassle and lots more money to run it all, is it really worth it for a part timer... Not sure really... I wouldn't bother...

 

[Dave B]

It depends if you can buy water locally or not

A diy trolley or backpack on a trolley cost peanuts and is easy to use

 

[TolishAPurd]

Assuming your 3 days a week are chocker, then why not go for it. You'll be able to do more work and it shouldnt take too long to pay off the investment. Like dave says,trolley might be the way to go though.

 

[Green Pro Clean Ltd]

Stuff hauling all that trolley / backpack stuff about mate - small van 250 300L fitted system, IBC 1000L at home with 40 inch and transfer pump.

If I were lifting 25 liter jerry cans and trolleys in out in out in out I would have kicked it down the road by now.

No idea why Jake is deluded into thinking lots of money to run it all, if you buy a system that works then it works, no aggro, if you are not a a water meter then it will cost you no extra to produce your own water (just some filters every few months) I currently spend £250 on filtration every six months (not even need that frequent I just do it to stay on top of it) so that's a tenner per week to keep your water perfect, not exactly lot's of money, you already said you in affluent hood so probably just the one job per month.

With your current skills I'm sure you know a thing or two about plumbing and hoses on vehicles and well lets just say van mount systems aren't rocket science.

On the topic of a helper / partner have you considered a youngun from the station that wants to earn a little extra bunce? At least that way its someone you know.

 

[Dave B]

"If I were lifting 25 liter jerry cans and trolleys in out in out in out I would have kicked it down the road by now."

I thought you were a big lad Green

Seriously it isn't that much hassle moving a 25l drum and trolley about..especially as i go to the gym after work..just a bit more excercise

 

[Danfire]

I have someone from the station lined up to start next week. Think I've evolved a bit of a plan, hopefully my newbie will work out so I can take on more work. I have an outside tap with a large shed close by so need to start making my own water, unfortunately I am metered but guess I've just got to swallow that. I've got a gardiner backpack and will use that myself for as much as possible and I've seen a new trolley system on the Grippatank website for £300 odd plus vat that takes about 35 litres. Get to the point where the pair of us are flat out with the backpack and trolley and decide where to take things from there.

 

[Jake]

Not deluded green, I'm wfp, a pole alone costs more than 5 years worth of trad gear. If I was part time, I'd stay trad, nice and simple.

It's not just the water green, a wfp setup and running cost is astronomical conpared to trad, you can't deny that, it's just fact,

Brushes, fixings, poles, RO, water, all the equipment, battery's, charging, blah blah blah, way more money than a bucket ladder and squeegees!

 

[Green Pro Clean Ltd]

I don't deny it Jake, your words were 'a lot more money to run it all'

Nothing about the cost to set it up, we all know starting with WFP if you have a slight clue you do marvelous things for under a grand, shop around, buy from ebay where others have jacked it in and so on.

For those with a little drive and ambition WFP can double and then some your hourly take.

As always, as with everything, you have to speculate to accumulate, with half a clue you will pay for a WFP setup first month out.

And of course no need to 'go light' and use one hand to lean on the sills when leaning really far as you suggest to other tradders so over all a few quid on a bit of kit that you will earn back in no time and do so safely should always be the option.

Danfire, contact your local water company and they will tell you how much per 1000 liters is costing you on the meter so you will be able to calculate your running costs precisely (dont forget to allow for the cost of the 'waste' water also)

 

[spanish pete]

Not deluded green, I'm wfp, a pole alone costs more than 5 years worth of trad gear. If I was part time, I'd stay trad, nice and simple.
It's not just the water green, a wfp setup and running cost is astronomical conpared to trad, you can't deny that, it's just fact,

Brushes, fixings, poles, RO, water, all the equipment, battery's, charging, blah blah blah, way more money than a bucket ladder and squeegees!

I have to agree 100% with Jake WFP is a great tool to have . But ive been cleaning windows for over 30 years and if you are good with a squeegee its not the golden nugget some would have you believe. When you add the true cost of equipment and running costs especially if its a hot system . All this you will earn double is a load bull. you might earn more but there's more outlay. From my point of view wfp has just opened a lot more doors to people to start window cleaning who would have thought twice if they had to spend a couple of months learning to squeegee properly and getting up and down ladders.