Hot water in Winter

[RyeCleanLiam]

Hey guys. Sorry if this has been covered but tried to search and not found much.

I had a diesel hot water heater installed in Feb this year. So coming into my first full winter with it. Are there any tips and tricks for things to do or avoid to prevent glass shattering? My water comes out at about 50 degrees from brush.

Thanks in advance.

 

[Pjj]

We have broken about 3 pains of glass in 6 years with three vans working with hot water all the ones we broke already had damage before we cleaned them , we use hot water on glass with frost on it without issue , sometimes you will hear the glass freak , best advice I can give is don’t keep the brush still on the glass make sure it’s always moving  to stop hot spots , 50 degrees should be fine  but if you are worried just turn the heat down a bit , any questions just ask . 

 

[RyeCleanLiam]

We have broken about 3 pains of glass in 6 years with three vans working with hot water all the ones we broke already had damage before we cleaned them , we use hot water on glass with frost on it without issue , sometimes you will hear the glass freak , best advice I can give is don’t keep the brush still on the glass make sure it’s always moving  to stop hot spots , 50 degrees should be fine  but if you are worried just turn the heat down a bit , any questions just ask . 

Thanks PJJ I was hoping you might comment.

That's great advice, thanks. There are a few windows with cracks in already so I'll avoid these. Great advice about keeping the brush moving.

Same advice for old single glazed too?

Good to know that it's not caused much of an issue even in frost. If you have to replace the odd window glass it's not a big deal.

 

[Part Timer]

Single glazed are far less likely to suffer the thermal shock a double glazed one does as they will be warmer to begin with. The new AAA rated units are the ones you'll have to be most careful with as there will be very little heat escaping from the house so they will be very close to the outside temperature. I think a freezing cold night in Pickering might be a tad colder than one in Cornwall ?

 

[Pjj]

I think it was squeaky clean Dave or someone who did a video of pouring boiling water on a frozen double glazed unit out of the frame and it was fine , we have never broken glass due to cold temperatures it’s always been due to existing damage ie , chips or small cracks .

Single glazed are far less likely to suffer the thermal shock a double glazed one does as they will be warmer to begin with. The new AAA rated units are the ones you'll have to be most careful with as there will be very little heat escaping from the house so they will be very close to the outside temperature. I think a freezing cold night in Pickering might be a tad colder than one in Cornwall ?

We do work all over the country apart from warm Cornwall ?????

 

[Part Timer]

We do work all over the country apart from warm Cornwall ?????

But you've never been to Pickering in the middle of winter ?

 

[RWCleaning]

I think it was squeaky clean Dave or someone who did a video of pouring boiling water on a frozen double glazed unit out of the frame and it was fine , we have never broken glass due to cold temperatures it’s always been due to existing damage ie , chips or small cracks .

We do work all over the country apart from warm Cornwall ?????

But you dare wouldn’t step foot in Bournemouth would you Paul ? ?

 

[Pjj]

But you dare wouldn’t step foot in Bournemouth would you Paul ? ?

If the price is right yes ?????

 

[Pjj]

But you've never been to Pickering in the middle of winter ?

No I haven’t but we work all along the M5 M4 corridor into London . We generally dont get that colder weather in Cornwall if we get a dozen frosts per year we have had a bad year , but occasionally we get it bad , I would rather have cold frosty mornings than mild damp drizzle days we get plenty of them that’s why everything goes green with algi 

 

[RyeCleanLiam]

But you've never been to Pickering in the middle of winter ?

Lol it does get rather cold. In fact a couple of years ago it froze all the underground water pipes to the in-laws house for 10 days so they were without any water. 

Thanks for all the help though i'm more reassured now. You just hear the horror stories online so wanted to be prepared. Sounds like it'll be ok though ?

 

[spruce]

Thanks PJJ I was hoping you might comment.

That's great advice, thanks. There are a few windows with cracks in already so I'll avoid these. Great advice about keeping the brush moving.

Same advice for old single glazed too?

Good to know that it's not caused much of an issue even in frost. If you have to replace the odd window glass it's not a big deal.

Swap over to fan jets to spread the heat over a wider area. Especially helps when rinsing off the glass like we do. As @Pjj says; keep the brush moving. I found stiff brushes work better with warm water than cold. We run at about 50 to 55 degrees C exiting the boiler and my Gardiner Ultimate Medium soft also holds up well. We do find that we do lose a lot of heat before the brush head when the ground/grass is icy cold.

I have also had my microbore freeze if I take too long setting up. I've never experienced this with minibore. I don't circulate hot water through the hose reel and back to the tank on route, so this could also have a detrimental effect on the freezing issue. I do heat my van over winter at around 3 degrees C and have never had a frozen hose reel inside my van in all the years we have done wfp.

 

[dazmond]

Swap over to fan jets to spread the heat over a wider area. Especially helps when rinsing off the glass like we do. As @Pjj says; keep the brush moving. I found stiff brushes work better with warm water than cold. We run at about 50 to 55 degrees C exiting the boiler and my Gardiner Ultimate Medium soft also holds up well. We do find that we do lose a lot of heat before the brush head when the ground/grass is icy cold.

I have also had my microbore freeze if I take too long setting up. I've never experienced this with minibore. I don't circulate hot water through the hose reel and back to the tank on route, so this could also have a detrimental effect on the freezing issue. I do heat my van over winter at around 3 degrees C and have never had a frozen hose reel inside my van in all the years we have done wfp.

why dont you circulate your water back to the tank to keep your diesel heater going and the hose reels warm spruce?my heater stays on all day.....even at lunchtime(with engine running) in winter.....i turn the heater on (with return to tank valves connected)in the morning as soon as ive started the van before departing to my first job of the day....

 

[RyeCleanLiam]

why dont you circulate your water back to the tank to keep your diesel heater going and the hose reels warm spruce?my heater stays on all day.....even at lunchtime(with engine running) in winter.....i turn the heater on (with return to tank valves connected)in the morning as soon as ive started the van before departing to my first job of the day....

This is exactly what I've been doing.

 

[RyeCleanLiam]

Swap over to fan jets to spread the heat over a wider area. Especially helps when rinsing off the glass like we do. As @Pjj says; keep the brush moving. I found stiff brushes work better with warm water than cold. We run at about 50 to 55 degrees C exiting the boiler and my Gardiner Ultimate Medium soft also holds up well. We do find that we do lose a lot of heat before the brush head when the ground/grass is icy cold.

I have also had my microbore freeze if I take too long setting up. I've never experienced this with minibore. I don't circulate hot water through the hose reel and back to the tank on route, so this could also have a detrimental effect on the freezing issue. I do heat my van over winter at around 3 degrees C and have never had a frozen hose reel inside my van in all the years we have done wfp.

Thanks Spruce. There will definitely be more heat loss at the end of the brush during winter. I recirculate my water round my reel and into my tank but still when it's laid on a freezing floor it will lose heat. So probs 35-40 degrees in winter. I will definitely keep the brush moving though as I wouldn't have thought of that.

 

[dazmond]

imo fan jets are terrible for rinsing off the glass esp if its a windy day...also lots of times i need to be really accurate with my rinsing and not rinse the top frame or rubber seals...pencils are ideal for this....fans will cause a lot more problems for you in regards to spotting and runs.....

 

[spruce]

why dont you circulate your water back to the tank to keep your diesel heater going and the hose reels warm spruce?my heater stays on all day.....even at lunchtime(with engine running) in winter.....i turn the heater on (with return to tank valves connected)in the morning as soon as ive started the van before departing to my first job of the day....

My heater will also run all day. I added a third heat exchanger and Shurflo pump into my system, controlled by the digital temperature controller. When the internal water circuit gets to 83 degrees c the third pump kicks in and bleeds the hot water back to the tank until the temperature drops to 78 degrees c and switches off. The cycle will begins again. At this temperature range the heater is on a heat reduced mode. If I switch off my Univalve for example, I can talk to a customer for half an hour without having to make a dash back to the van to put a hose reel in to recirculate hot water to stop the diesel heater from switching off.

I agree that fan jets aren't the best when it comes to rinsing off the glass - I've never liked fan jets tbh; I prefer pencils but I would chose fan jets when using hot water to spread the heat. I'm not comfortable using pencil jets with hot water as I fear the heat from the hot water is too concentrated on the glass. But that's my opinion and not based on any logical fact.

 

[NorVik]

I added a third heat exchanger and Shurflo pump into my system, controlled by the digital temperature controller. When the internal water circuit gets to 83 degrees c the third pump kicks in and bleeds the hot water back to the tank until the temperature drops to 78 degrees c and switches off. The cycle will begins again. At this temperature range the heater is on a heat reduced mode.

@spruce That sounds great! You do have a lot of knowledge in this subject.. May I ask, do you have some photos or videos from your setup? ? 

 

[spruce]

@spruce That sounds great! You do have a lot of knowledge in this subject.. May I ask, do you have some photos or videos from your setup? ? 

I don't tbh. I could try and get some photos when I open the front cover. Space is a little cramped so I'm not sure how the photos will come out, but I will try.

 

[NorVik]

I don't tbh. I could try and get some photos when I open the front cover. Space is a little cramped so I'm not sure how the photos will come out, but I will try.

Absolutely wonderful! 

Did the digital temperature controller come included in your setup, or something you put in there yourself? ?

 

[spruce]

Absolutely wonderful! 

Did the digital temperature controller come included in your setup, or something you put in there yourself? ?

I used 3 of the equivalent of these.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/384468928347?hash=item598422475b:g:cuoAAOSwLAxhejse

1 x WH7016C

2 x MH1210A

A diesel heater heats up an internal 'enclosed' water circuit and uses water to water plate heat exchangers to transfer the heat from that circuit to the water going to the brush head.

The first controller is attached to a short length of copper tubing on the internal enclosed hot water circuit to record the temperature of the water being heated. It is set to cooling mode so when the temp reaches 83 degrees the controller switches a third Shurflo pump on. The controller switches the pump off once the temperature drops back to 78 degrees C. That pump draws cold water from the tank and pumps it through the third heat exchanger and back to the tank. I fitted a pwm speed controller on the circuit to slow the pump down.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/203320624238?hash=item2f56da846e:g:214AAOSwWwdhc7HN

The second controller records the temperature of the water going to brush No1 as it leaves the heater. This controller is set to heating mode at 3 degrees C. When the temperature drops and the water in the circuit drops to 3 degrees C the controller activates the boiler to switch on. It switches the boiler off when the temperature probe records 9 degrees C. As there is no pump running that probe relies on the water reaching that temperature by convection. When the heater is activated this way the heater remains on for around 10 to 12 minutes. I couldn't find a controller that had a timer function like the Spring Frostat has that comes with the diesel heater. The Spring controller was the first version and needed a new probe.

The third controller just shows the temp of the water leaving the heater for the second brush.

 

[spruce]

Before I bought the Heatwave for spares or repair, I set up a test bench using a Thermo Top C Webasto cabin heater and 3 heat exchangers @NorVik

This was what I based the modifications to my Heatwave on.

If you look at the pipework closely you will see water comes from the header tank down the pipe on the left and feeds into the heater. Hot water leaves the heater and goes into the first heat exchanger on the lower left. This was my heat bleed off heat exchanger. It exits at the top and goes to the bottom of the second and third heat exchanger to heat the water to the brushes. Back in the day I mainly worked on my own and wanted the provision of being able to switch off hot water going to the third heat exchanger. The hot water then leaves the heat exchangers to return to the header tank heating that water up further as it circulates around and around like central heating does through the radiators of our homes.