Late payers since converting to bacs

[scottish cleaning service]

It would allow you to do it, what the implications of doing that is anyones guess as it's a contract between you and the customer. So lets say you verbally agreed to clean someones Fascias, conservatory roof and windows and then did the work and took £200 for doing it, well if the customer then contacted their bank and cancelled the payment then your problem is getting the customer to pay what they owe and possibly going via the court process, but it is your word against theirs.

On the other hand if you billed the customer for £200 for work that you didn't do then they can cancel it and claim it back from your bank.

If you tried to do say 100 x £200 payments then I really don't know what would happen. Technically it should be possible, but whether the banks have something in place to stop that happening... It does take 4 working day to do the transfer, but there is now an immediate instant payment that you can take straight away. So in theory, if you had lost the plot, you could bill 100 customers £200 and then flee the country.

Better getting them to set up a standing order. Everything points to standing order being the way forward, if someone can come up with a better system then let us know.

 

[Yogi1872]

It would allow you to do it, what the implications of doing that is anyones guess as it's a contract between you and the customer. So lets say you verbally agreed to clean someones Fascias, conservatory roof and windows and then did the work and took £200 for doing it, well if the customer then contacted their bank and cancelled the payment then your problem is getting the customer to pay what they owe and possibly going via the court process, but it is your word against theirs.

On the other hand if you billed the customer for £200 for work that you didn't do then they can cancel it and claim it back from your bank.

If you tried to do say 100 x £200 payments then I really don't know what would happen. Technically it should be possible, but whether the banks have something in place to stop that happening... It does take 4 working day to do the transfer, but there is now an immediate instant payment that you can take straight away. So in theory, if you had lost the plot, you could bill 100 customers £200 and then flee the country.

This is the stumbling block for me, do any of the customers on the round know that essentialy you could take x amount out there bank without them okaying it ?. I bet if they did then 90% would want of it . If someone was trying to get my mum signed up to something where they can take what they please out her account every month I'd be telling her she's of her head and not to do it. Although I agree it's the best way to get paid, I wouldn't ask someone to sign up for something that I myself wouldn't be comfortable to do.

They would notice £200 coming out, but if it was smaller amounts that could go un noticed for a long time. We could be addicted to drugs next year or gambling or something, I don't think I will be btw but neither did Frank or Jim think it would be them who's now in rehab. I just used they names as an example btw. And we have access to hundreds of bank accounts. Il be amazed if this scenario hasn't played out before somewhere

If you told ppl when they went on go cardeless that with them doing that it now gives me authorisation to take what you like out there bank you'd get told where to go. I bet not one person has ever mentioned that part of it to the customer.

 

[ched999uk]

If you told ppl when they went on go cardeless that with them doing that it now gives me authorisation to take what you like out there bank you'd get told where to go. I bet not one person has ever mentioned that part of it to the customer.

One thing to remember is that first off the customer will receive an email telling what they payment will be in x days time - so they can contact their bank and cancel the payment before it is taken!
The second is the Direct Debit Guarantee: This means that if you or the billing organisation has made an error in the payment of a direct debit, the bank or building society must pay the customer a full and immediate refund.

 

[Yogi1872]

One thing to remember is that first off the customer will receive an email telling what they payment will be in x days time - so they can contact their bank and cancel the payment before it is taken!
The second is the Direct Debit Guarantee: This means that if you or the billing organisation has made an error in the payment of a direct debit, the bank or building society must pay the customer a full and immediate refund.

How many people really check there emails regular. Alot of people will moss that, I know about the dd guarantee etc. But even with that, how many of the customers do you think would sign up knowing you could take anything you want out there bank. Let's not kid ourselves on, the answer would be close to zero. I signed up for go cardless as I thought it was a game changer. Only question I had really is what systems do you hsve in place incase I make a mistake and bill someone extra, they said customer would get email, that doesn't mean they read the email though. When they told me they don't have any systems in place for that, I then asked who do you think is going to sign up for this when I can take x y or z out there account. Without saying I didn't have to disclose that part to the customer right out she basically said that would be the best option.

 

[Chris34]

How many people really check there emails regular. Alot of people will moss that, I know about the dd guarantee etc. But even with that, how many of the customers do you think would sign up knowing you could take anything you want out there bank. Let's not kid ourselves on, the answer would be close to zero. I signed up for go cardless as I thought it was a game changer. Only question I had really is what systems do you hsve in place incase I make a mistake and bill someone extra, they said customer would get email, that doesn't mean they read the email though. When they told me they don't have any systems in place for that, I then asked who do you think is going to sign up for this when I can take x y or z out there account. Without saying I didn't have to disclose that part to the customer right out she basically said that would be the best option.

That comes down to your responsibility as a business owner though. If you make a mistake it's on you, and if you make an error you have to put it right. In the same way you could smash somebodys window with a Gardiner Pole, well Gardiner are not going to pay for your mistake are they even though it was their pole you smashed the window with, so the responsibility is for you to be careful and not smash the window, but if you did you would have to square it right with the customer.

Well it's the same with direct debits, if you make an error then you have to put it right, but you should have your own systems in place to not make that error.

If you decide to bill 100 customers for £200 and flee the country, well that's theft and the law will want to speak to you. But that's the same as if you saw the customers car keys in the kitchen and decided to steal their Porsche and flee to Spain.

I think you're over thinking it though, you have to do what's best for the business and GoCardless means you don't have to go back collecting cash and you don't have to wait for the customer to pay you. If you're honest then you don't have to worry about stealing anybodies money and if you make a mistake just own up to it.

I've made one mistake with mine, I charged a £40 job £25. I noticed the next time I cleaned because I always check the previous payment when I go to take a payment on there (previous payments are on the same screen). I didn't say anything to the customer and just decided that it was my mistake so didn't chase for the missing £15. The reason I made it is because I was taking payments at the same time as texting someone, so my mind wasn't fully focused. I now take more care but considering I've taken hundreds of payments, one mistake isn't too bad.

 

[Yogi1872]

That comes down to your responsibility as a business owner though. If you make a mistake it's on you, and if you make an error you have to put it right. In the same way you could smash somebodys window with a Gardiner Pole, well Gardiner are not going to pay for your mistake are they even though it was their pole you smashed the window with, so the responsibility is for you to be careful and not smash the window, but if you did you would have to square it right with the customer.

Well it's the same with direct debits, if you make an error then you have to put it right, but you should have your own systems in place to not make that error.

If you decide to bill 100 customers for £200 and flee the country, well that's theft and the law will want to speak to you. But that's the same as if you saw the customers car keys in the kitchen and decided to steal their Porsche and flee to Spain.

I think you're over thinking it though, you have to do what's best for the business and GoCardless means you don't have to go back collecting cash and you don't have to wait for the customer to pay you. If you're honest then you don't have to worry about stealing anybodies money and if you make a mistake just own up to it.

I've made one mistake with mine, I charged a £40 job £25. I noticed the next time I cleaned because I always check the previous payment when I go to take a payment on there (previous payments are on the same screen). I didn't say anything to the customer and just decided that it was my mistake so didn't chase for the missing £15. The reason I made it is because I was taking payments at the same time as texting someone, so my mind wasn't fully focused. I now take more care but considering I've taken hundreds of payments, one mistake isn't too bad.

I'm honest and tell people when they have overpaid etc, at 37 I'd be surprised if I start taking drugs now and get addicted etc, or start gambling heavy, it's happened to better people than me though so I'm not nieve enough to think it's not possible. I've never stolen anything in my life, but I've never been in a position where it was the only way out I could see either. I trust myself but at the same time I don't think I should have access to hundreds of ppls bank accounts to take funds. As I said I certainly wouldn't agree to someone doing it to me so I wouldn't ask them too. Il admit though it's the best option from our side to get paid though. But again if the customer knew fully what they were agreeing too then they wouldn't agree to it.

 

[Iron Giant]

With go cardless what would happen if you decide to put £200 for every paymeant one month ? I know the customer gets an email but most probably don't look. Would go cardless let you go ahead and take that £200?. Or is there a system in place where the customer has already agreed a specific amount.

@Chris34 has covered this a bit but the customer is protected under the direct debit guarantee if you or the billing organisation has made an error in the payment of a direct debit, you (the bank or building society) must pay the customer a full and immediate refund no doubt the law would be coming after you as well or whoever

There is no set amount as a first clean I charge a higher price so then adjust the amount requested for the regular clean moving forward, I've had no issues in 8-9 years just been ripped off once or twice when a customer requested a chargeback basically they say they didn't sign up for my services or the direct debit but clearly did for months.

 

[Yogi1872]

@Chris34 has covered this a bit but the customer is protected under the direct debit guarantee if you or the billing organisation has made an error in the payment of a direct debit, you (the bank or building society) must pay the customer a full and immediate refund no doubt the law would be coming after you as well or whoever

There is no set amount as a first clean I charge a higher price so then adjust the amount requested for the regular clean moving forward, I've had no issues in 8-9 years just been ripped off once or twice when a customer requested a chargeback basically they say they didn't sign up for my services or the direct debit but clearly did for months.

I understand that about the guarantee, if its all fine and dandy tell the customer what you could do and say but don't worry it's protected. We all have a fee people on our run who we could take advantage off and they wouldn't be none the wiser if extra money was coming out there account. Older people who's starting to loose it etc. Ask anyone if giving a stranger access to your bank account where they can take what they want out is a good idea and the answer will be no. If you have to hide a part of something or intentionally not mention something your selling to the customer because you know they won't agree to it then in your head you know its not quite right either. That part won't ever get mentioned, itl maybe get a passing remark saying any mistakes are covered by the dd guarantee, but the customer won't know you could bill them everyday if you felt like it.

 

[Yogi1872]

Like everyone else there's that 10% that you have to chase for double the next time. Last month I've started to mark down who's paid the week it's been done the second week and so on. In 6 months time the people who it flags up are getting told I'm switching to a new paymeant system, paymeanta will be made by standing order on either the 15th of the month or the 28th, whatever one of the two suits them. If not set up then I can't continue going forward.

 

[Chris34]

Like everyone else there's that 10% that you have to chase for double the next time. Last month I've started to mark down who's paid the week it's been done the second week and so on. In 6 months time the people who it flags up are getting told I'm switching to a new paymeant system, paymeanta will be made by standing order on either the 15th of the month or the 28th, whatever one of the two suits them. If not set up then I can't continue going forward.

What happens if you die in a plane crash and the standing orders keep coming out your customers banks accounts without you doing the work? How do you square that one? ?

I do know what you're saying, when I first started using it I couldn't believe I had access to someones bank account, seemed really over trusting and super responsible and I myself never knew how direct debits worked like that, I always thought you had to ok the amount and have one set up at that amount, I didn't know you could alter the amount without the customers say so.

However direct debit exists and lots of people use it, so the trust factor is not my problem. The customers are covered by the direct debit guarantee and I'm not breaking any laws by them paying via the service, if they question it then I always tell them about the direct debit guarantee. My problem is running the business and direct debit makes it a lot easier and customers use it, the possible scenarios of it getting into the wrong persons hands isn't my problem, as long as I know I'm responsible and informed them of the guarantee and give them all written quotations of all prices / increases etc then I know I'm operating within the rules.

Standing order is a good option, I prefer it to be taken out on a set date as it's easy to remember, all you have to do is make sure you keep on schedule. If you have an accident though I could see it being an issue if you are not in a position to stop the payments, that's the only downside.

 

[Yogi1872]

What happens if you die in a plane crash and the standing orders keep coming out your customers banks accounts without you doing the work? How do you square that one? ?

I do know what you're saying, when I first started using it I couldn't believe I had access to someones bank account, seemed really over trusting and super responsible and I myself never knew how direct debits worked like that, I always thought you had to ok the amount and have one set up at that amount, I didn't know you could alter the amount without the customers say so.

However direct debit exists and lots of people use it, so the trust factor is not my problem. The customers are covered by the direct debit guarantee and I'm not breaking any laws by them paying via the service, if they question it then I always tell them about the direct debit guarantee. My problem is running the business and direct debit makes it a lot easier and customers use it, the possible scenarios of it getting into the wrong persons hands isn't my problem, as long as I know I'm responsible and informed them of the guarantee and give them all written quotations of all prices / increases etc then I know I'm operating within the rules.

Standing order is a good option, I prefer it to be taken out on a set date as it's easy to remember, all you have to do is make sure you keep on schedule. If you have an accident though I could see it being an issue if you are not in a position to stop the payments, that's the only downside.

Tell them about the guarantee but won't tell them you could take a daily paymeant if you liked, which tbh if I had of used it I wouldn't bring it up either unless they asked the question specifically about it. It probably is a better option for some customers too, as some people are genually bad at doing things and think il pay that tonight then they forget.

Sometimes when more than 1 person makes the paymeant from month to month the other person thinks the other ones paid it.

 

[scottish cleaning service]

What happens if you die in a plane crash and the standing orders keep coming out your customers banks accounts without you doing the work? How do you square that one? ?

I do know what you're saying, when I first started using it I couldn't believe I had access to someones bank account, seemed really over trusting and super responsible and I myself never knew how direct debits worked like that, I always thought you had to ok the amount and have one set up at that amount, I didn't know you could alter the amount without the customers say so.

However direct debit exists and lots of people use it, so the trust factor is not my problem. The customers are covered by the direct debit guarantee and I'm not breaking any laws by them paying via the service, if they question it then I always tell them about the direct debit guarantee. My problem is running the business and direct debit makes it a lot easier and customers use it, the possible scenarios of it getting into the wrong persons hands isn't my problem, as long as I know I'm responsible and informed them of the guarantee and give them all written quotations of all prices / increases etc then I know I'm operating within the rules.

Standing order is a good option, I prefer it to be taken out on a set date as it's easy to remember, all you have to do is make sure you keep on schedule. If you have an accident though I could see it being an issue if you are not in a position to stop the payments, that's the only downside.

The UK runs on Trust which took me a while to realise. You buy a house on trust you will make the payments and then use electricity, gas and water on the trust you will pay the bill when due. That's the reason by to let is a minefield. You rent out a property and then the person doesn't pay so one would expect you can kick them out? No, you have to go through the courts and takes a year and they still don't pay so you need to employ bailiffs to try and get your money and also have to pay bailiffs. I had a relative who phone for a taxi to take him home from the pub. Once home he said he had no money and went in house. Taxi driver followed him in and no one would pay. Police came and eventually someone paid a few pounds but the driver was their for an hour. Sometimes no one could pay and they left with nothing. They could take him to court but he had nothing and no house. That's when I realised that we trust a person when we complete a service to pay us. That's why many things are becoming debit up front like when paying for fuel and it cuts off before £100 because the card machine knows their is £100 in the account. Soon everything will be standing order or if they don't pay then we don't go back. If the customer can't or unwilling to pay by standing order then alarm bells should ring.

 

[Chris34]

Tell them about the guarantee but won't tell them you could take a daily paymeant if you liked, which tbh if I had of used it I wouldn't bring it up either unless they asked the question specifically about it. It probably is a better option for some customers too, as some people are genually bad at doing things and think il pay that tonight then they forget.

Sometimes when more than 1 person makes the paymeant from month to month the other person thinks the other ones paid it.

Do you tell your customers if they pay cash you could not declare it to the taxman and not pay any tax on it? Do you tell your customers if they leave the back door unlocked you could walk in and steal their possessions? Do you warn everyone on the street that if you wanted to, you could drive on the pavement and run them over?

It's like Scottish says, society is based on trust. It's not for us to tell people the worst case scenarios, if you tried ripping people off on direct debit you wouldn't get very far, the odd one you might get away with, 100's and it would get spotted via customers reporting it.

End of the day they are covered by the guarantee, it's not our responsibility to look after our customers responsibilities. If they don't check their emails / bank accounts etc then that's them being irresponsible for not taking care, if they took care of their finances / admin then they would spot it and be able to report the misuse.

 

[Yogi1872]

Do you tell your customers if they pay cash you could not declare it to the taxman and not pay any tax on it? Do you tell your customers if they leave the back door unlocked you could walk in and steal their possessions? Do you warn everyone on the street that if you wanted to, you could drive on the pavement and run them over?

It's like Scottish says, society is based on trust. It's not for us to tell people the worst case scenarios, if you tried ripping people off on direct debit you wouldn't get very far, the odd one you might get away with, 100's and it would get spotted via customers reporting it.

End of the day they are covered by the guarantee, it's not our responsibility to look after our customers responsibilities. If they don't check their emails / bank accounts etc then that's them being irresponsible for not taking care, if they took care of their finances / admin then they would spot it and be able to report the misuse.

I do yeah, very large percentage of mines is online paymeants but if you honestly think any customer believes you when you say all cash goes through then your off your head, I just say its changed days now and although I'm not going to pretend everything's through,now with bank paymeants there's no choice. Anyone with half a brain will know you have just lied to them if your telling someone all the cash goes through.

If your so confident the customers would see it like that then let everyone of them know exactly what you could do with the details. Don't even try pretend that you know very well the reaction you would get from the customers. I will say again though it's the best way of paymeant for us and them. Over the year we might miss a full month woth weather meaning they will overpay, gocardless takes that away from happening. If gocardless had of said to me you can authorise dbl what the normal bill is on a monthly basis to give some lee way for price increases or an extra thing done I'd think that's reasonable. But to give you access to take what you want and it potentially go unnoticed is a massive flaw in it. As I've said, we will all have customers who could easily be taken advantage by this, and it would go unnoticed. Old age happens to us all and it's frightening how quick it happens when people start loosing it a bit. We had a woman who was fine one month but the next month she was giving me 50 quid for windows, her mind starting to go, there was carers going in the house too daily. When I noticed she was loosing it I got in touch with her daughter to say moving forward I'm not comfortable taking money from now on and explained what she was trying to pay me. I'm not saying the carers would take money from her but if they did and money starts going missing I'm then a suspect as she gives me money too. Daughter transfered it over to me from then on after I had done them. Vulnerable people could easily be exposed and it never get noticed.

 

[Iron Giant]

I understand that about the guarantee, if its all fine and dandy tell the customer what you could do and say but don't worry it's protected. We all have a fee people on our run who we could take advantage off and they wouldn't be none the wiser if extra money was coming out there account. Older people who's starting to loose it etc. Ask anyone if giving a stranger access to your bank account where they can take what they want out is a good idea and the answer will be no. If you have to hide a part of something or intentionally not mention something your selling to the customer because you know they won't agree to it then in your head you know its not quite right either. That part won't ever get mentioned, itl maybe get a passing remark saying any mistakes are covered by the dd guarantee, but the customer won't know you could bill them everyday if you felt like it.

To put it plainly complete bolleks, literally every company that collects money for bills via direct debit that's utility companies council etc could take what they wanted, I don't try to hide anything from my customers an old person typically wouldn't sign up to a dd they'd be cash payers and no access is given to anyone's bank account, I have a well written payments page on my website clearly outlining things and I always state to the customer any questions at all please don't hesitate to contact me

Honestly people talk about the North East of England being like another world a miles behind down south I had no idea Scotland was even further behind, anyway I'm off take me whippet out with my flat cap on, hopefully, it's not too cold for you today wearing your kilt

 

[ched999uk]

Bottom line is it's the customers choice IF they want to sign up by Direct Debit.
I would be surprised if there wasn't some form of check that the amount wasn't within normal range then flags would get thrown up a bit like when your credit card company ring you to say did you spend £x on a gambling site which is out of character sort of thing.
If you think about it it wasn't that long ago that when you used a credit card they took an imprint of your card so they had all your credit card info - so even the minimum wage staff in a late night petrol station had your card details....

As others have said it's down to trust. How many companies have you given your bank details too? As we have seen previously with TalkTalk staff selling literally millions of peoples details on the dark web.. It's all down to trust.

Don't stress about it and run things as you see fit.

 

[steve garwood]

To put it plainly complete bolleks, literally every company that collects money for bills via direct debit that's utility companies council etc could take what they wanted, I don't try to hide anything from my customers an old person typically wouldn't sign up to a dd they'd be cash payers and no access is given to anyone's bank account, I have a well written payments page on my website clearly outlining things and I always state to the customer any questions at all please don't hesitate to contact me

Honestly people talk about the North East of England being like another world a miles behind down south I had no idea Scotland was even further behind, anyway I'm off take me whippet out with my flat cap on, hopefully, it's not too cold for you today wearing your kilt

Saw a dyslexic Yorkshire man yesterday.

He was wearing a cat flap ?

 

[Pjj]

This is the stumbling block for me, do any of the customers on the round know that essentialy you could take x amount out there bank without them okaying it ?. I bet if they did then 90% would want of it . If someone was trying to get my mum signed up to something where they can take what they please out her account every month I'd be telling her she's of her head and not to do it. Although I agree it's the best way to get paid, I wouldn't ask someone to sign up for something that I myself wouldn't be comfortable to do.

They would notice £200 coming out, but if it was smaller amounts that could go un noticed for a long time. We could be addicted to drugs next year or gambling or something, I don't think I will be btw but neither did Frank or Jim think it would be them who's now in rehab. I just used they names as an example btw. And we have access to hundreds of bank accounts. Il be amazed if this scenario hasn't played out before somewhere

If you told ppl when they went on go cardeless that with them doing that it now gives me authorisation to take what you like out there bank you'd get told where to go. I bet not one person has ever mentioned that part of it to the customer.

Funny you say this a local window cleaner to me is now insisting all customers go onto gocardless and ones are dropping him like flies we alone have had over 20 of his customers contact us saying they aren’t prepared to sigh up to it , but he’s adamant it’s that or no windows cleaned , I personally wouldn’t sign up to it either although it’s a safe way to pay as I have been told the customers have up to 12 months to complain to the bank and they can get there money back no questions asked , so you the cleaner could find yourself out of pocket by 12 cleans Evan if ever has been done right the bank favours the client not the worker .

 

[Iron Giant]

Funny you say this a local window cleaner to me is now insisting all customers go onto gocardless and ones are dropping him like flies we alone have had over 20 of his customers contact us saying they aren’t prepared to sigh up to it , but he’s adamant it’s that or no windows cleaned , I personally woyldny sign up to it either althitbis a safe way ti lay as I have been told the customers have up to 12 months to completion the band and they can get there money back no questions asked , so you the cleaner could find yourself out of pocket by 12 cleans Evan if ever has been done right the bank favours the client not the worker .

I maybe came across as a bit hardline over the years but have no issue in new jobs signing up to GC I give them all the spiel about how they collect over £5 billion globally how they are regulated etc if I need to go into all that but the vast majority are absolutely fine in signing up they see it as one less task for them to do in their busy lives and they are pleased that I offer this payment method also as I mentioned previously and in the past, my website has a page plus links so new jobs can read through it all and the links on my site,

you get far less information from utility companies just a basic paragraph and people willingly sign up for a direct debit because they are household names it's about the trust they trust a household name but also they trust long established businesses and have faith in their bank who have to ultimately authorise the direct debit there are rules and regulations in place to protect a bill payer,

Yes, a chargeback can happen but also a dispute can be raised about the chargeback how can someone claim they didn't sign up for a service and direct debit when they have to do it themselves after 12 months there is a digital trial in my case using GC and also Cleaner Planner but decent honest people won't ask for a chargeback only the dodge pots, which you have experienced yourself I believe in been ripped off by client who also ripped off other businesses for £1,000's it's a one-off thing

 

[Pjj]

I maybe came across as a bit hardline over the years but have no issue in new jobs signing up to GC I give them all the spiel about how they collect over £5 billion globally how they are regulated etc if I need to go into all that but the vast majority are absolutely fine in signing up they see it as one less task for them to do in their busy lives and they are pleased that I offer this payment method also as I mentioned previously and in the past, my website has a page plus links so new jobs can read through it all and the links on my site,

you get far less information from utility companies just a basic paragraph and people willingly sign up for a direct debit because they are household names it's about the trust they trust a household name but also they trust long established businesses and have faith in their bank who have to ultimately authorise the direct debit there are rules and regulations in place to protect a bill payer,

Yes, a chargeback can happen but also a dispute can be raised about the chargeback how can someone claim they didn't sign up for a service and direct debit when they have to do it themselves after 12 months there is a digital trial in my case using GC and also Cleaner Planner but decent honest people won't ask for a chargeback only the dodge pots, which you have experienced yourself I believe in been ripped off by client who also ripped off other businesses for £1,000's it's a one-off thing

The problem I had was with a builder got paid for the first job we did but not the second got a CCJ against them and several other things in place but he’s a real con man and knows all the tricks of not paying he owes over 200k to people that I know of no one has seen a penny of it , I doubt I will either, lesson learned I had a bad feeling about the job from the outset I should never have taken it on .

 

[Iron Giant]

The problem I had was with a builder got paid for the first job we did but not the second got a CCJ against them and several other things in place but he’s a real con man and knows all the tricks of not paying he owes over 200k to people that I know of no one has seen a penny of it , I doubt I will either, lesson learned I had a bad feeling about the job from the outset I should never have taken it on .

That's bad crack, sometimes despite a bad feeling, some jobs can turn out okay you just never know it goes back to what was raised earlier which is trust, we take on jobs and trust that we will get paid for a job well done but it really is a roll of the dice.

A mate of mine who has a landscaping and building business has been ripped off for 30k in the last year two people just turned around and said they were really happy with the work but they weren't paying, he is going after one guy through the courts to bankrupt him, he doubts he'll get his money but wants to have him declared bankrupt