Nationwide Window Cleaning. How???

[Part Timer]

The market dictates salary not the employers so don’t go blaming us all, I would genuinely love to pay my lads more but the business doesn’t allow it certainly not once you get to a decent size

This is exactly what I mean, this isn't a personal attack, but the biggest companies in the industry set the wage. Personally wouldn't employ if I couldn't pay someone a wage they couldn't live on. 

 

[Teaboy]

This is exactly what I mean, this isn't a personal attack, but the biggest companies in the industry set the wage. Personally wouldn't employ if I couldn't pay someone a wage they couldn't live on. 

Cash bandits are the worst doing a job for £10 which should be £16-20 devalues the industry which then has a direct effect on staff salary




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[Green Pro Clean Ltd]

If I employed, not that I ever will, I would pay the right person £15 an hour.

That's all well and good to say as a non-employer but once you do empoy, and you've done the numbers to make sure you can afford to, wait till you see how hard that person is going to have to work to take home £15 per hour.  

It's easy to say you'll pay £15 per hour but as a ltd company with all the expenses that are involved in that alone I'd rough guess that lad needs to be doing around £60 per hour turnover for you to be able to pay £15.  

@Teaboy could possible give a slightly more accurate costing as hes more years employing than I do.  

 

[Teaboy]

£15 an hour you would go bust quite quickly if you did everything above board, you’ll be lucky to be able to pay £10

If you fiddle then it’s easy

We are straight as I always wanted to build a large domestic model so that’s been the target from the outset


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[Green Pro Clean Ltd]

It seems very strange that you are the biggest advocate on here about minimum prices, and not under pricing jobs and then wonder why someone who was working for a large company on barely above minimum wage starts on his own and is happy doing houses for between £5 - £8. 

No I don't wonder why at all, I totally get it but here's the kicker.    

A lad goes from £8 per hour, sets up on his own and charges £8 per semi, cost is at least £3.20 per semi so now he's actually earning £9.60 per hour so he's better off -- but wait, he's only better off if he's got a minimum 16 clients per day every day of the working month,  then from that previous total of £9.60 he still got to pay his tax and N.I. etc, then we better add on an extra client per day to cover holiday pay, sick pay etc etc  

So we gone from being an £8 per hour employee that simply needs to show up and complete the job list to a self employed worker that needs to find all his own clients, maintain all his own gear, deal with all his own paperwork and so on for pretty much the same wage. 

Lads that go from min wage to setting up and charge £5 - £6 per house are literally shooting themselves in the foot - they're worse off than if they were on £8 per hour on the cards. 

I advocate minimum prices and so on so that the lads not only equal their minimum wage jobs but also turn a profit.   Here's the biggest downside and the hardest part to swallow for a new guy, it's going to take at least six months before you start to break even if your lucky, let alone turn profit. 

 

[P4dstar]

There’s another option that I’ve been shot down for mentioning before... make them self employed. They get a percentage of what the van takes. If they go out and take £30 an hour, let’s assume you give them 50% they can make £15 an hour and have some of the benefits of being self employed


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[Part Timer]

£15 an hour you would go bust quite quickly if you did everything above board, you’ll be lucky to be able to pay £10

If you fiddle then it’s easy

We are straight as I always wanted to build a large domestic model so that’s been the target from the outset


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That's all well and good to say as a non-employer but once you do empoy, and you've done the numbers to make sure you can afford to, wait till you see how hard that person is going to have to work to take home £15 per hour.  

It's easy to say you'll pay £15 per hour but as a ltd company with all the expenses that are involved in that alone I'd rough guess that lad needs to be doing around £60 per hour turnover for you to be able to pay £15.  

@Teaboy could possible give a slightly more accurate costing as hes more years employing than I do.  

I said, and have always said, I wouldn't employ. I ran a company that employed 20+ workers, and in the mid 90's were paying semi skilled labourers, similar skill level to WFP, £5 an hour and 1.5 times for overtime. 

The cost of employing isn't anywhere near 4 times hourly wage. 

 

[Teaboy]

There’s another option that I’ve been shot down for mentioning before... make them self employed. They get a percentage of what the van takes. If they go out and take £30 an hour, let’s assume you give them 50% they can make £15 an hour and have some of the benefits of being self employed


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This is already a grey area and will become a bigger one, look at the hassle deliveroo and Uber have.


Also from an owner perspective it offers no security on the work you own, which in effect is our pension/biggest asset in the business.

I know that plenty that do it and it works for the 1-2 vans but it won’t scale and I would be skeptical doing it.


Like I’ve said 100 times before anybody wants to talk about this stuff I can dm you my mobile or you can come to derby and buy me a coffee happy to chat anything through to help


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[Part Timer]

There’s another option that I’ve been shot down for mentioning before... make them self employed. They get a percentage of what the van takes. If they go out and take £30 an hour, let’s assume you give them 50% they can make £15 an hour and have some of the benefits of being self employed


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Actually illegal 

 

[Teaboy]

 
No I don't wonder why at all, I totally get it but here's the kicker.    
 
A lad goes from £8 per hour, sets up on his own and charges £8 per semi, cost is at least £3.20 per semi so now he's actually earning £9.60 per hour so he's better off -- but wait, he's only better off if he's got a minimum 16 clients per day every day of the working month,  then from that previous total of £9.60 he still got to pay his tax and N.I. etc, then we better add on an extra client per day to cover holiday pay, sick pay etc etc  
 
So we gone from being an £8 per hour employee that simply needs to show up and complete the job list to a self employed worker that needs to find all his own clients, maintain all his own gear, deal with all his own paperwork and so on for pretty much the same wage. 
 
Lads that go from min wage to setting up and charge £5 - £6 per house are literally shooting themselves in the foot - they're worse off than if they were on £8 per hour on the cards. 
 
I advocate minimum prices and so on so that the lads not only equal their minimum wage jobs but also turn a profit.   Here's the biggest downside and the hardest part to swallow for a new guy, it's going to take at least six months before you start to break even if your lucky, let alone turn profit. 

I don’t advocate minimum price what we offer is best value all considered there is a big difference in the two


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[scottish cleaning service]

When one is running a business with staff, then there is one person you don't want to upset? The employee! The best way to show an employee that you respect them is to pay them well. Everything else is all good and well but Money is the best motivator. Seen it all my life in private and public companies. That's the reason our public services are depressed and moral at a low, no wage rises. Now why would you want to respect and pay your employee well even if your company is flatlining? Because the first rule in business is this:- without customers you don't have a business. The foot soldiers are between the boss and customers and the soldiers do the work. Upset your employee and they don't really care about the quality of their work especially if they are on minimum wage and the company gets used as a stepping stone. The customers complain to the boss, the boss lunches a verbal attack on the employee and they automatically go sick or leave. Then the boss is in a worse condition as he was before so he puts pressure on the other employees to work harder for same money. They then realise the boss is a slave driver and go sick or leave and the company's name goes down hill, customers leave and the company goes bust.

England has a big problem with its private care industry which is slowly going bust. The private companies employee someone straight off the street on minimum or slightly above minimum wage. Within a year they are fully trained and have experience to work in the care industry. What do you think they do once fully trained? They leave and get a job with the NHS or the Council. why? Because there is more money, holidays and better sick leave, not to mention security. The Care Company Director who told me this said all that happens is I lose good reliable staff. I asked why not pay them more money and he told me the Industry or the company cant afford it. That's why all the private care companies are slowly going under. Some of the big ones are bankrupt (four seasons) but the UK Gov are holding them up because they will need to step in if or when they go under.

The moral of the story is this.

Respect your staff and they will respect your customers, without customers you have no business.

 

[P4dstar]

Actually illegal 

How is it illegal? If you’re doing it to avoid tax an NI contributions it is but that needs to be proven. Lots of people use subbies and as our customers don’t sign contracts they aren’t regular reliable work and could drop you at any point. If your round is full of contracted work the tax man can say you’re just avoiding contributions. When I worked in paving all we used were subbies because you would only do a job once and if the work dried up you wouldn’t have anything for them to do. It’s a legitimate way of making a company stay afloat. You can book the lads (or lasses of course) in for work 2 weeks in advance. Where they get you is if you behave like Uber or Deliveroo, making them wait around for work but not paying them to wait, taking work away from them if they are unavailable at some point with little or no notice.

As a legitimate business I believe we have a certain responsibility to ensure people are paying tax and NI and you can’t treat them like an employee. If they want a weeks holiday in June and you need them then though luck for you, they can work for you when they like.


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[Teaboy]

When one is running a business with staff, then there is one person you don't want to upset? The employee! The best way to show an employee that you respect them is to pay them well. Everything else is all good and well but Money is the best motivator. Seen it all my life in private and public companies. That's the reason our public services are depressed and moral at a low, no wage rises. Now why would you want to respect and pay your employee well even if your company is flatlining? Because the first rule in business is this:- without customers you don't have a business. The foot soldiers are between the boss and customers and the soldiers do the work. Upset your employee and they don't really care about the quality of their work especially if they are on minimum wage and the company gets used as a stepping stone. The customers complain to the boss, the boss lunches a verbal attack on the employee and they automatically go sick or leave. Then the boss is in a worse condition as he was before so he puts pressure on the other employees to work harder for same money. They then realise the boss is a slave driver and go sick or leave and the company's name goes down hill, customers leave and the company goes bust.
England has a big problem with its private care industry which is slowly going bust. The private companies employee someone straight off the street on minimum or slightly above minimum wage. Within a year they are fully trained and have experience to work in the care industry. What do you think they do once fully trained? They leave and get a job with the NHS or the Council. why? Because there is more money, holidays and better sick leave, not to mention security. The Care Company Director who told me this said all that happens is I lose good reliable staff. I asked why not pay them more money and he told me the Industry or the company cant afford it. That's why all the private care companies are slowly going under. Some of the big ones are bankrupt (four seasons) but the UK Gov are holding them up because they will need to step in if or when they go under.
The moral of the story is this.
Respect your staff and they will respect your customers, without customers you have no business.

That’s all well and good but without profit your paying for that business, I’ve said it before I don’t think people realise what a tight ship you have to run on a scaled up domestic business


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[Part Timer]

A lad goes from £8 per hour, sets up on his own and charges £8 per semi, cost is at least £3.20 per semi so now he's actually earning £9.60 per hour so he's better off -- but wait, he's only better off if he's got a minimum 16 clients per day every day of the working month,  then from that previous total of £9.60 he still got to pay his tax and N.I. etc, then we better add on an extra client per day to cover holiday pay, sick pay etc 

Your figures don't stack up, it doesn't cost £3.20 per semi, and if he does 3 an hour he's making £20 an hour, allowing for £100, high end for a sole trader using WFP, a week for costs and doing 20 houses a day. 

 

[Part Timer]

How is it illegal? 

Simply because he isn't self employed as he is working for you. The days of doing this type of business are on the way out. Don't fancy going down this route and in 10 years time being sued for back sick pay, holiday pay and pension contributions 

 

[Green Pro Clean Ltd]

allowing for £100, high end for a sole trader using WFP, a week for costs 

£100 a week?  Mate our diesel is £60 per week on its own. Van payment - £55 per week - (excluding insurances taxes and serciving / mot) Water - £15 a week. WFP system £15 a week and on and on..  

If you think £100 a week covere costs PT think again mate. 

 

[Part Timer]

£100 a week?  Mate our diesel is £60 per week on its own. Van payment - £55 per week - (excluding insurances taxes and serciving / mot) Water - £15 a week. WFP system £15 a week and on and on..  

If you think £100 a week covere costs PT think again mate. 

Your diesel bill is higher than mine and I do 1000 miles a month on average. A newbie isn't going to be driving around in a new van etc etc As I said your costings are floored, you are basing them on a 2 man system with new van and equipment. Not exactly the same cost base as a guy with a back pack working out of his family car or a small van. 

 

[Teaboy]

£100 a week?  Mate our diesel is £60 per week on its own. Van payment - £55 per week - (excluding insurances taxes and serciving / mot) Water - £15 a week. WFP system £15 a week and on and on..  
 
If you think £100 a week covere costs PT think again mate. 

£100 lol this is exactly what cracks me up haha

That wouldn’t even cover my phone bill for the month ffs I run 3.5 vans

How much do you think my overheads are??



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[P4dstar]

Simply because he isn't self employed as he is working for you. The days of doing this type of business are on the way out. Don't fancy going down this route and in 10 years time being sued for back sick pay, holiday pay and pension contributions 

I’m only so confident because I’ve seen it in practice. The key was we weren’t allowed to be seen withholding work because someone wasn’t available. You were ok to stop giving work if someone let you down after booking it in and if they did a bad job. You weren’t however allowed to discipline someone, suspend someone etc etc. There are companies out there doing this, Deliveroo & Uber being ones we have mentioned. The Cobra group who employ teams of door to door sales people are another prolific offender (or were). There are loads of other things it entails, you can’t provide work references as such. This biggest issue is you can’t make them work overtime, so if I give a lad £200 worth of work and someone else calls in sick I can’t make him do that work even if he’s finished all of his work because he isn’t my employee he is someone I have contracted to do a pre determined amount of work, with an employee if he finished early you can send him somewhere else. Another issue we used to face was cancellations, if a customer cancelled you need to be in a position to offer a reasonable alternative or pay them the rate you’ve agreed. It works well if done correctly and I’m lucky I have close family members who use this type of subcontracting to help me if I ever choose this route


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[Part Timer]

£100 lol this is exactly what cracks me up haha

That wouldn’t even cover my phone bill for the month ffs I run 3.5 vans

How much do you think my overheads are??



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Obviously high but you're not a newbie sole trader. I'm fairly certain there are numerous windies on here that would be horrified if their cost base, before taxes, was £100 a week. Don't start going down the look at me and my costs when it is about a sole trader whose option is work for min wage or clean houses for £8 a pop. 

 

[Teaboy]

Your diesel bill is higher than mine and I do 1000 miles a month on average. A newbie isn't going to be driving around in a new van etc etc As I said your costings are floored, you are basing them on a 2 man system with new van and equipment. Not exactly the same cost base as a guy with a back pack working out of his family car or a small van. 

But if this is how you are operating it won’t be taking on someone self employed to do th same


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Obviously high but you're not a newbie sole trader. I'm fairly certain there are numerous windies on here that would be horrified if their cost base, before taxes, was £100 a week. Don't start going down the look at me and my costs when it is about a sole trader whose option is work for min wage or clean houses for £8 a pop. 

That’s not how we got on this conversation and I’m not that type of person,


It’s Friday there’s no need to be a clown about it.



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