Transitioning from Traditional - Advice needed :)

[spruce]

The cheapest best and best risk free start for you would be but a Gardiner backpack less than 100 notes and go to Aldi or lidl for the trolley I paid 11.99 in Aldi. There you go you have a water fed pole system. Obviously pole needed lol. You have an Astra van complete waste of money paying a thousand quid for a tank to be installed that isn't big enough for much work anyway. Earn enough get a bigger van then a bigger tank. 

I started with a ladder on a Corsa

Then a backpack and 4 barrels in the corsa.

Then a little combo van with the backpack and 12 barrels.

Now traffic with 500L tank. 

No risk at any point as waited to get the money to move up the ladder in just over 12 months. 

He hasn't the space to store water  so processing water into a dozen 25l plastic containers in the road/driveway is the pits. I did it every night with 4 x 25 liter containers.

He will need an all in one system with an r/o included, so knocking up a diy system isn't going to cost a couple of Bob.

I'm going to stick my neck out and go with @Part Timer. My advise is to get rid of the Astra van now and buy a bigger van you can work with. We picked up an 02 plate Citroen Berlingo 800LX 2.0hdi last year with a side loading door, 82k on the clock, cambelt and clutch changed for less than a grand. Body isn't prestine but perfectly presentable. It has alloy wheels on as well which does seem to distract from the vans imperfections.

Yes it was overpriced according to the trade but runs sweet. The important thing is that it will carry a 500 liter tank full.

When we transitioned from trad to wfp I had a Suzuki Carry 1.3 van and a trailer. I tried to build the business around that. I struggled because I didn't have enough water to do a days work and I was processing water overnight into the tanks and carrying extra in the van. When I ran out of water at 2.00pm I had no choice but to go home.

When I finally bought an old 51 plate Citroen Relay 1.9d with a 650 liter tank the business took off. I admit there were other things that contributed to this; processing water into an IBC tank, the introduction of flow controllers, minibore hose and the original Aquadapter flow controllers.

Despite that, our 450gpd didn't quite supply our weekly needs so I had to plan ahead. Fill my van Saturday and Son's van Sunday helped, but now we have a 4040 we have plenty of water - down fall now is age and health.

.

 

[MikeNW]

h @Part TimerWe picked up an 02 plate Citroen Berlingo 800LX 2.0hdi last year with a side loading door, 82k on the clock, cambelt and clutch changed for less than a grand. Body isn't prestine but perfectly presentable. It has alloy wheels on as well which does seem to distract from the vans imperfections.

Yes it was overpriced according to the trade but runs sweet. The important thing is that it will carry a 500 liter .

.

You don't have any pics of this with the tank in do you? I'm hunting for a van myself at the minute but wrote these off as too small. I'm on a tight budget and these are the right money! 

 

[Clisty1989]

could always see about buying pure in the short term, id second barrels & trolley, its how I run my round, mine is easier like that then a van mount too. Just remember, you won't be able to open boot fully with ladders on top, so could make access difficult

 

[spruce]

You don't have any pics of this with the tank in do you? I'm hunting for a van myself at the minute but wrote these off as too small. I'm on a tight budget and these are the right money! 

The van isn't here atm and for some reason I didn't take photos of it after we fitted the tank.

The van he had before was a Peugeot Partner 800 lx but that didn't have a side loading door. The layout is similar. The tank fits better sideways. When I fitted a tank into son in laws Ford Transit Connect T220L he wanted the tank lengthways so he had more room down the sides for other equipment as he was also doing joinery work.

View attachment 11582

We had an on/off switch at the back door. In those days the analogue controller, which he still has, could be switched on and off that way. You can't do this with the digital ones.

On this van I had his poles down the side above the wheel arches extending into the passenger compartment and keep in place by some UPVC guttering. It wasn't ideal. In the current van I cut a small section of the steel mesh bulkhead, welded up a bracket with a 'hook' and he now feeds his pole into the roof section of the cabin. This doesn't interfere with the passenger's seat belt and getting in and out of the van.

This system was put together 10 years ago. With his current van his battery was and still is an 85amph leisure battery and fits under the passengers seat. There is also a change over switch so he can draw current from the van's starter battery if he had to/needed to.

The white housing has a split charge relay in it.

The downside with any car derived van is that the cargo floor is higher than the footwells of the van. On numerous ocassions I overfilled the tank and filled the footwells up with water. This isn't a good thing as Citroen/Peugeot join the dash wiring harness to the rear wiring harness down each side next to the doors. Water in the connectors plays havoc with the central locking.

So with the current van we fiberglassed the floor and up the sides to help prevent that happening again. Water can only drain out of the back doors.



.

 

[chris clean]

Definitely see if you can buy your pure at first

 

[Kelsey Smith]

Thanks for everyones advice . I do have a big garden to use with access to a tap but unfortunately currently do not have a shed or anywhere under cover. Does the RO and DI filter have to be protected from weather when filtering water into a big tank? 

Is the only option to filter water before i use the trolley , is there no way to filter between tank and pole? 

Unfortunately i don't currently have the money to buy a new van and will have to work out of the Astra for the time being.

Is it correct that all the equipment i buy can be transferred to a van mount system whenever i need to?  

I have noticed a lot of people have told me to build my own trolley but as its my first go at WFP i would like to go as smooth as possible and im currently looking at the PF nano Trolley. 

Is it worth buying a booster with the RO filter? how much quicker does this work as ive noticed its considerably more expensive.  

and i do i need a DI filter to compliment the RO filter? 

I didn't actually think about the fact the ladder prevents the boot from opening fully and this will be a problem , has anyone found a way round this apart from not carrying a ladder as this isnt an option because i already know i have some customers who only want trad. ( not many but definitely a few a week , maybe more at first ) 

 

[Kelsey Smith]

Is this any good? 

http://thecleaningwarehouse.co.uk/new-water-genie-mobile-ro-system-twin-20-hf4-membranes-4585-p.asp

 

[Clisty1989]

Thanks for everyones advice . I do have a big garden to use with access to a tap but unfortunately currently do not have a shed or anywhere under cover. Does the RO and DI filter have to be protected from weather when filtering water into a big tank? 

Is the only option to filter water before i use the trolley , is there no way to filter between tank and pole? 

Unfortunately i don't currently have the money to buy a new van and will have to work out of the Astra for the time being.

Is it correct that all the equipment i buy can be transferred to a van mount system whenever i need to?  

I have noticed a lot of people have told me to build my own trolley but as its my first go at WFP i would like to go as smooth as possible and im currently looking at the PF nano Trolley. 

Is it worth buying a booster with the RO filter? how much quicker does this work as ive noticed its considerably more expensive.  

and i do i need a DI filter to compliment the RO filter? 

I didn't actually think about the fact the ladder prevents the boot from opening fully and this will be a problem , has anyone found a way round this apart from not carrying a ladder as this isnt an option because i already know i have some customers who only want trad. ( not many but definitely a few a week , maybe more at first ) 

trad pole? Did all my trad custys yesterday with a trad pole, not 1 grumble, make switching them to wfp bit easier as they used to no ladders

I know some on here that have the Ro under sink, or just buy a storage box, insulate it and have Ro and di in that. An Ro will remove 95-97% of impurities, so you'll need a di as well for the last couple %. Depending on water pressure you can get away without booster pump, but if you use one I should speed things up. If using Ro you'll need a holding tank and transfer water into barrels when using trolley/backpack as an Ro isn't the quickest of things. First thing you need is a tds meter, that'll give you a better idea of what you need. Also you could save a few quid by using a backpack on a sack truck.

 

[Clisty1989]

@spruce is one of the Ro experts here

 

[Kelsey Smith]

trad pole? Did all my trad custys yesterday with a trad pole, not 1 grumble, make switching them to wfp bit easier as they used to no ladders

I know some on here that have the Ro under sink, or just buy a storage box, insulate it and have Ro and di in that. An Ro will remove 95-97% of impurities, so you'll need a di as well for the last couple %. Depending on water pressure you can get away without booster pump, but if you use one I should speed things up. If using Ro you'll need a holding tank and transfer water into barrels when using trolley/backpack as an Ro isn't the quickest of things. First thing you need is a tds meter, that'll give you a better idea of what you need. Also you could save a few quid by using a backpack on a sack truck.

Thanks Clisty, 

Yes that could be an option with Trad pole, 

What type of storage box and insulation should i get ( sorry not very handy but getting there lol ) 

On average how long do filters last and how much are refills? 

 

[Clisty1989]

Thanks Clisty, 

Yes that could be an option with Trad pole, 

What type of storage box and insulation should i get ( sorry not very handy but getting there lol ) 

On average how long do filters last and how much are refills? 

I don't use an Ro as my waters very soft but I know people that use a plastic storage box for £40 and line it with loft insulation. As for filters not a clue.

 

[Iron Giant]

So get a tds meter and find out just how hard your water is as this will determine what ro you will need to buy as you will potentially need to spend £300 or more just on a ro cheap ro's on ebay will be useless, Someone living in a hard water area correct me if I am wrong as in soft water area. 

Water production and storage in your garden, To house ro you can use one of those cheap plastic garden storage chests for about £20-30 You can get a black plastic 1000 litre ibc of ebay from £20. 

I agree with getting rid of your current van a one man operator needs 350ltrs as minimum to do a decent days work you will use far more water than you think more so with first cleans,

Please be under no illusion's that its not easy transition and wfp has to been properly a full and thorough clean of all window frames, sills glass and doors to get the best results and give your clients the best service and put you above your competitors, This past week I have seen some shocking operators peanuts and monkeys springs to mind  :1f602:

 

[spruce]

Is this any good? 

http://thecleaningwarehouse.co.uk/new-water-genie-mobile-ro-system-twin-20-hf4-membranes-4585-p.asp

No.

The idea came from America where 99% of customers have an outside water supply tap and expect the window cleaner to use it when cleaning windows twice a year.

Most customer switch their outside taps off in winter and not all customers have an outside tap.

If they do then you will need to park the trolley near the tap and a drain. When an r/o works is produces waste water as well as pure. I couldn't see this working for me on our round.

Two 4021 membrane housings look good on the trolley but they will cost you more to replace both membranes in the future than it would a single 4040 membrane which produces the same quantity of water.

A clean used IBC tank doesn't cost much, usually around £50.00. Add another £50 for transport if you have to ship it in.

An r/o can be put under the kitchen sink or on the wall in a downstairs toilet if you have one.



This is a photo I took with my rubbish phone I had of a friends r/o mounted on the wall of his downstairs toilet above the toilet cistern. The down stairs toilet is in what was the washroom and scullery in the days when they built the house back in the 1940's. So although not warm, the place doesn't freeze either.

It feeds an IBC tank outside with a tiny hole through the wall.

He knocked up a small wooden structure and insulated it. He has a submersible pump in the tank to pump water out into the van. You will notice my friend has a pump fitted as a booster. He has this on an old timer so the pumps runs for 30 minutes and switches off for 15 minutes to cool down. If you have got good water pressure you don't need a booster pump.

This r/o is a 300gpd r/o. We initially had a 450gpd without booster and 40psi water pressure. It took about 36 hours to fill an IBC tank of 1000 liters. It was, and still is on a float switch and solenoid valve. So the water was on virtually 24/7 when 2 of us were drawing water.

Now the 450gpd has been replaced with a 4040 we get 2lpm of pure and 2lpm of waste. We process water from the r/o through the di vessel and into the IBC tank. We fill our vans on demand. We don't need a di vessel on each van to polish the water off.

A di vessel also need to be protected from frost.

So its amazing what you can do with a bit of thought. Someone else mounted a 4040 r/o high up on the wall out of the way in the passage into his flat as that was the only place he could find.

An r/o won't freeze when its processing water as the water flowing through it is above freezing. My r/o was outside next to my back tap when I started wfp and it processed water overnight into my trailer.

I brought it in and stored it in the bath during the day. I did that through the first winter I changed over to wfp.

You will need a di vessel to polish the remaining tds as has already been advised. That di vessel will need to be after the r/o unit as you won't be able to use it with a PF Nano trolley. If you had a van mount then you could have it on the van and polish those remaining impurities from the water as you are cleaning.

If you are going to mount a small tank in your Astra Van for water for your Nano trolley then you may as well consider going van mount with a hose reel and forget the Nano trolley idea. You will need a pump, battery and a hose reel. You will also need a battery charger. And you will need a good Gardiner pole.

It seems to me that you aren't currently a window cleaner as you didn't realise the having ladders on the roof of the van you have will restrict the opening of the tailgate. So my advise to you is to stick with cleaning windows with the pole. If a customer wants them done traditionally then find another customer. Once you start pandering to them you will be doing them all traditionally. In my honest opinion, its one method or the other.

I fell off my ladders many years ago and so trad isn't an option any longer. We turned a potential customer recommendation down the other day because they didn't want it done with the pole.

.

 

[Kelsey Smith]

No.

The idea came from America where 99% of customers have an outside water supply tap and expect the window cleaner to use it when cleaning windows twice a year.

Most customer switch their outside taps off in winter and not all customers have an outside tap.

If they do then you will need to park the trolley near the tap and a drain. When an r/o works is produces waste water as well as pure. I couldn't see this working for me on our round.

Two 4021 membrane housings look good on the trolley but they will cost you more to replace both membranes in the future than it would a single 4040 membrane which produces the same quantity of water.

A clean used IBC tank doesn't cost much, usually around £50.00. Add another £50 for transport if you have to ship it in.

An r/o can be put under the kitchen sink or on the wall in a downstairs toilet if you have one.

View attachment 11599

This is a photo I took with my rubbish phone I had of a friends r/o mounted on the wall of his downstairs toilet above the toilet cistern. The down stairs toilet is in what was the washroom and scullery in the days when they built the house back in the 1940's. So although not warm, the place doesn't freeze either.

It feeds an IBC tank outside with a tiny hole through the wall.

He knocked up a small wooden structure and insulated it. He has a submersible pump in the tank to pump water out into the van. You will notice my friend has a pump fitted as a booster. He has this on an old timer so the pumps runs for 30 minutes and switches off for 15 minutes to cool down. If you have got good water pressure you don't need a booster pump.

This r/o is a 300gpd r/o. We initially had a 450gpd without booster and 40psi water pressure. It took about 36 hours to fill an IBC tank of 1000 liters. It was, and still is on a float switch and solenoid valve. So the water was on virtually 24/7 when 2 of us were drawing water.

Now the 450gpd has been replaced with a 4040 we get 2lpm of pure and 2lpm of waste. We process water from the r/o through the di vessel and into the IBC tank. We fill our vans on demand. We don't need a di vessel on each van to polish the water off.

A di vessel also need to be protected from frost.

So its amazing what you can do with a bit of thought. Someone else mounted a 4040 r/o high up on the wall out of the way in the passage into his flat as that was the only place he could find.

An r/o won't freeze when its processing water as the water flowing through it is above freezing. My r/o was outside next to my back tap when I started wfp and it processed water overnight into my trailer.

I brought it in and stored it in the bath during the day. I did that through the first winter I changed over to wfp.

You will need a di vessel to polish the remaining tds as has already been advised. That di vessel will need to be after the r/o unit as you won't be able to use it with a PF Nano trolley. If you had a van mount then you could have it on the van and polish those remaining impurities from the water as you are cleaning.

If you are going to mount a small tank in your Astra Van for water for your Nano trolley then you may as well consider going van mount with a hose reel and forget the Nano trolley idea. You will need a pump, battery and a hose reel. You will also need a battery charger. And you will need a good Gardiner pole.

It seems to me that you aren't currently a window cleaner as you didn't realise the having ladders on the roof of the van you have will restrict the opening of the tailgate. So my advise to you is to stick with cleaning windows with the pole. If a customer wants them done traditionally then find another customer. Once you start pandering to them you will be doing them all traditionally. In my honest opinion, its one method or the other.

I fell off my ladders many years ago and so trad isn't an option any longer. We turned a potential customer recommendation down the other day because they didn't want it done with the pole.

.

Thanks for all that advice, that's brilliant. 

Haha the reason i didn't think about the restriction of the boot is because i have only just started driving a couple of months ago and this is my first van. ( on road from Monday , just waiting on signwriting )  I've cleaned windows for 10 years on and off but properly set up my own full time  company 10 months ago with help from a friend ( who drove ). I am now on my own and to push the business on i really need to start with WFP as i have a few small commercial jobs in the pipeline and i have too much work to handle but am not interested in turning work down . Ideally i want to use trolley and then transfer to a van once i have a bigger van , the only other problem i have is that i live in a very congested overpopulated area and parking isn't great. 

I want to spend no more than £1000 on the full trolley system including water storage etc. 

 

[Part Timer]

I really think that you really need to buy your water in. This will allow you time to understand what quantity of water you need to service your round and then look at how you can produce water yourself. 

If you try and set up for what you need now in a few months you will probably find that you will need to buy something else. Start earning and save as much as you can and then buy a midsized Van and a van mounted system. 

 

[spruce]

I really think that you really need to buy your water in. This will allow you time to understand what quantity of water you need to service your round and then look at how you can produce water yourself. 

If you try and set up for what you need now in a few months you will probably find that you will need to buy something else. Start earning and save as much as you can and then buy a midsized Van and a van mounted system. 

That's probably the best way forward.

If his father does decide to join the business, every thing he has bought now will need replacing/upgrading. On a tight budget means that he will be buying the bare minimum.

TBH, if he has done trad before for years then I would say that that would be the best way to get started on his own. A bit more dangerous though.

 

[Julian Noddy Dean]

the best way is to stop saying you cant , you cant you cant , a  350 will go in the back of that van , buy your water in , and off you go , if you can tie your lases you can fit a diy set up all my 5 vans are all diy as i want them fitted my way what works for us not the people that make them  

ebay , gumtree , fasebook saleing sites are now your best friends  

second hand tank 

new pump 

controller cheap as  you can  d.a. components is what we use  

secondhand reel 

new clips and hose 

boom wfp for under 350 its the pole thats going to hurt but a would by a clx job done

like the others have said save and buy a bigger van , sell the little tank on and reuse the rest of the gear from your old van in two your new one , this way you will know what and where you want your set up 

 

[Kenny Q]

Hi Kelsey. I've done what you're trying to do. Straying slightly from setup topic, I would highly recommend that you go and see a first clean. That could save you a hell of a lot of problems further down the line..