Windows scratched - grit from floor?

[pelanma]

Hi I live in a newbuild (from mid 2022) and have had a window cleaner cleaning our windows for past year or so. They used WFP. Upon inspection of the windows I noticed that tey are scratched all over the house from the outside. I've seen numerous posts here saying that i's not possible to scratch the glass with this system but I've seen them putting the bristles on the floor before cleaning our windows. Is it possible that they'd pick up grid and scratch them? Of course I have no "proof" that it was them but noone else touched our windows from the outside

 

[ched999uk]

The main reason we normally say it's 'impossible' to scratch glass with our brushes is because even if there are grit particles on the brush the only part of the brush that should come in contact with the glass is the bristles. The bristles are soft so to think they could apply enough force to keep grit against the glass and scratch is a bit of a stretch. I not saying a brush has never caused a scratch but it would be very rare and probably just in a few very localised spots not all over the glass.

What sort of pattern are the scratches? i.e circular, side to side or up and down etc? Are they in one spot as if someone had tried removing bird much and scrubbed?

This time of the year the sun is very low to the horizon ( about 9 degrees) it does highlight any marks on the glass.

There is a possibility due to the very low sun this time of year that the scratches have been there since the house was built but have only just been noticed.

 

[Cghwindowcleaning]

With it being a new build and having scratches on all windows there is a strong chance this was caused by who ever carried out the builders clean and the low sun is now highlighting them.

Leaving the brush on the floor like that isn’t the greatest idea mind.

 

[pelanma]

both up/down and side to side. Here are 2 examples (it's hard to capture it on a photo)

 

[spruce]

I've had a brush and pole fall and land on the bristles @pelanma I always brush my hand across the bristles to ensure they are clean before cleaning the next window.

In this case, I agree, the window cleaner is acting very irresponsibly. I might think that there is the possibility of dirt scratching the next window he cleans if he didn't brush the bristles off first, but for all the windows all the way around the house to be scratched? I don't buy that, tbh. Sorry.

As a previous poster has alluded to, I would consider this to be a builder's or manufacturing issue which is seen in low level sun.

Seeing this brush head on the floor could easily draw attention to a problem that has been around for a long time without being noticed, imho. Unfortunately, as you have stated, you have no evidence to point to him being responsible for the scratches.

One of our neighbours cancelled their window cleaner about 5 years ago. He had been cleaning their windows for some 22 years. They blamed him for swirl marks on the glass to their lounge window, which they told him he damaged.

In all the times I've watched this window cleaner (who I know as I worked for him to begin with) he has never swirled his brush. His are mainly vertical strokes, with horizontal strokes across the top window frame. He doesn't rotate his brush. And the problem was only to one window pane. A window fitter then later confirmed it was a manufacturing fault and shouldn't have been used. Interestingly, it took them 10 years to discover the problem.

 

[Master Jedi Alejandro]

I think @spruce has covered this well, but I just want to add. Most window manufactures have tolerances for scratches and the ones you have posted unfortunately fall well within them. It’s something like ‘the scratch must be visible at 6ft away’ to be classed as a fault. Obviously every manufacturer is different but with new builds they are using cheapest bulk buy they can find. Add to that a lot of the lads building these homes aren’t paid to take their time, it’s a recipe for issues like this. I would say you came off lightly. I had one customer who had to have very pane replaced due to them all having deep scratches. Another customer, in a very up market estate, I will add, has had non stop issues trying to get damaged windows and frames rectified.

This all being said, @pelanma if it really is bothering you I would do two things; Add it to your snagging list, raising it with your builder. You may be able to convince them to replace the worst ones, if not them all. And tell your window cleaner you don’t like the fact he leaves his brush on the ground. Personally it doesn’t fly with me. I know the science, I know grit on a brush can’t scratch a window. But the customer doesn’t and it looks extremely unprofessional in my book.

 

[Marko067]

Hi Pelanma, I understand your dilemma.

We have a similar difficulty in situations like this, because whereas most of us will accept responsibility for damage we know we have caused, we also don't want to accept liability for damage that a customer believes we have caused when we're sure we couldn't have done it, and especially when there is no solid proof.

With this in mind I undertook an experiment some years ago to put my mind at rest after I was accused of scratching a window.

This might sound ridiculous and some may think I was stupid to try it (maybe I was ) but in my efforts to see if it was possible I actually swept the pathway in my garden with my brush whilst it was wet and deliberately got it covered in grit and then cleaned a couple of my own windows with it several times over. Try as I might I was unable to make even the slightest mark on my windows. The grit and muck just washed off the bristles and flowed off the glass along with the dirt already on them and left them spotless and unmarked.

My accept that test was in no way exhaustive so I'm not stating that it's impossible to do, but I would say, based on my experiment and further experience that the marks in the pictures you uploaded are extremely unlikely to have been caused by grit on a wfp brush that has been dropped on the floor.

For it to be remotely possible I'd say any grit would have to be fixed in the bristles somehow so it couldn't move, which is not going to happen by just by dropping the brush on the floor (it would need something to bind it to the brush), and then in order to possibly scratch any glass you would have to press down so hard on the brush whilst cleaning that you would most likely break the pole whilst cleaning any upstairs windows. (To keep them light enough to work with hours on end, our poles are designed for longitudinal strength not lateral strength. Even the toughest poles will break quite easily when lateral force is applied whilst extended)

However, as has been said making it a habit to put the pole on the floor especially with the brush face down as in your photo is bad practice and extremely unprofessional. Based on that alone I'd be looking for another window cleaner.

 

[clearview]

Looks like typical new build scratches to me from the building work and labourers removing cement and factory stickers off the glass with the good old Stanley blade I see it all the time especially when then sun is low which has been mentioned already it really does highlight it. I live in a new build and mine are scratched in the top corners where the square factory stickers were and some lines here and there I also think the quality of glass isn’t the best just cheap mass produced and it’s exposed to so much from installation to sale time.

 

[Richyconnett]

I would wager that most if not all of the houses on your estate have similar scratches on them here and there.
Sometimes the windows turn up scratched for the builder to install. He then decides whether to complain and reinstall different windows or leave it and hopes no one notices.
Sometimes it happens on site during install, or as others have said with the builders clean ( which isn’t always done by a professional window cleaner but by a labourer)

 

[Iron Giant]

I think @spruce has covered this well, but I just want to add. Most window manufactures have tolerances for scratches and the ones you have posted unfortunately fall well within them. It’s something like ‘the scratch must be visible at 6ft away’ to be classed as a fault. Obviously every manufacturer is different but with new builds they are using cheapest bulk buy they can find. Add to that a lot of the lads building these homes aren’t paid to take their time, it’s a recipe for issues like this. I would say you came off lightly. I had one customer who had to have very pane replaced due to them all having deep scratches. Another customer, in a very up market estate, I will add, has had non stop issues trying to get damaged windows and frames rectified.

This all being said, @pelanma if it really is bothering you I would do two things; Add it to your snagging list, raising it with your builder. You may be able to convince them to replace the worst ones, if not them all. And tell your window cleaner you don’t like the fact he leaves his brush on the ground. Personally it doesn’t fly with me. I know the science, I know grit on a brush can’t scratch a window. But the customer doesn’t and it looks extremely unprofessional in my book.

Similar here as well on one estate I had one customer complain against the housebuilder 2 years after the windows were installed and the site foreman blamed me the owners only noticed the scratches in the low sun around this time of year, they were fine with me as I get on with them quite well needless to say the site foreman and I think area manager got put in their places as they'd had a long snagging list from my customer ongoing since they had moved in and they got every job done,

On the same estate, another customer had almost every window replaced because of damaged frames and that delayed them moving in, a few weeks later I told him there were still a few damaged frames, this from a housebuilder who has won housebuilder "Pride In The Job Quality Awards" 19 years in a row but they use the cheapest of subbies who don't care and this gets repeated across other housebuilders the state of some of the windows I clean is shocking

 

[Part Timer]

Similar here as well on one estate I had one customer complain against the housebuilder 2 years after the windows were installed and the site foreman blamed me the owners only noticed the scratches in the low sun around this time of year, they were fine with me as I get on with them quite well needless to say the site foreman and I think area manager got put in their places as they'd had a long snagging list from my customer ongoing since they had moved in and they got every job done,

On the same estate, another customer had almost every window replaced because of damaged frames and that delayed them moving in, a few weeks later I told him there were still a few damaged frames, this from a housebuilder who has won housebuilder "Pride In The Job Quality Awards" 19 years in a row but they use the cheapest of subbies who don't care and this gets repeated across other housebuilders the state of some of the windows I clean is shocking

Some of the blocks of flats, 3 of them with 12 flats in each block, we were doing last week are having their roof renewed. They aren't 4 years old yet.
The PM company say they are constantly having issues and they're all down to build quality.

 

[Bell Pallisey]

This is a good reason why id now NEVER ever do any builders cleans.Not for any money .Oh i did them years ago and id find 1 house out of say 10 that was scratched to **** every window [by a builders boy?] and i just kept quiet and was damn lucky it never was mentioned ever. Most window cleaners would be finished financially if they had to fork out for a set of new windows .

 

[wenson]

I had 2 similar experiences many years ago when trad cleaning. Tesco superstore had just opened and was their windy cleaner. The manager was very unhapy that I had scratched one of the double glazed windows and demanded I replace it. When I inspected it the scratch was on the inside and when I pointed it out to him he just walked away,no apology. Second when I did a bit of subby work and was asked to clean this huge mansion with a dried up moat around it that beloned to peter waterman & Rula lenska.Every bit of paint in & out was removed from anything that was wooden. The mansion had huge wooden windows with original small panes of glass. The wooden frames were then treated with a clear liquid to protect the wood at least on the exterior. When I started to clean them there were marks around the edges of glass & frames that would not come off so I reported it. Arms flying in air I was told it is your job to clean the windows. As it turned out the liquid they used to get paint off window frames etched into the glass so no amount of cleaning would get it off. They then decided for me to leave them and get the people in who done the job of removing paint. The glass panes were now ruined and these pains were a couple of hundred years old!!!!!!! No idea of the outcome but expensive for the contractor who did not do their homework.
I also at first did builders clean on houses as you do to get any work and it was ok. However I was leaving with my wifey at arond 4pm on the Friday to go to my sister for weekend in Kent. About 3pm on the Friday I had a phone call from whoever was in charge and said they had another house which needed 1st clean clean urgently in the next 2 hours as they had someone inportant coming to see the houses. I explained I was going away in one hour for a weekend. His reply (demand) was cancel your trip and come and come and cleanthe house. My reply was up your ad put the phone down,never done a 1st clean since.
I have a couple of funny experiences if you ever want me to telly you about them

 

[Iron Giant]

Some of the blocks of flats, 3 of them with 12 flats in each block, we were doing last week are having their roof renewed. They aren't 4 years old yet.
The PM company say they are constantly having issues and they're all down to build quality.

That's shocking, there is a Gleesons site in the town I cover someone has leaking roof the house is just over 12 months old Gleesons are saying it's not their fault ? only houses I have seen that look they've used fencing boards for fascias

 

[Richyconnett]

I once got asked to do a builders clean on 6 houses. Bloody hard work . All done and awaiting payment had a call from the builder saying that there are scratches all over 1 of the houses we cleaned . I was still reasonably new to the game so got really worried and rushed over to inspect. There were indeed scratches all over it , but after checking the other 5 houses none on the others. I smelt a rat and by chance got talking to one of the labourers on site . Works out a young work experience chap was asked by the builder to clean this house and he scratched the hell out of it. Basically the builder had concocted a plan with his financial partner to call me and then blame me for the damage and claim on my insurance . He told me as much when I confronted him so it was by chance I managed to find out
Since that day I’ve never done builders clean and never worked for builders again

 

[Bell Pallisey]

i once took it upon myself to replace a pane of glass one of my workers had broken old vicarage .Turned out it was 200yr old and only 2mm thick .Well i ended up buying 4 mm glass and as i arrived to put it in the wind whipped up and i swear i saw something move in one of the ancient trees by the house [body swinging?] anyhoo i climbed the ladder with the glass in my hand harder than you think and set to cutting out the old putty with a stanley knife -only it was like concrete so flippin old. Ended up chiselling it out with a hammer and screwdriver how the other wafer panes beside it didnt crack lord knows. A couple of weeks later i went down back there to paint the frame climbs my ladder with tin of paint and when i got up there couldnt bleve it,it was already painted !

 

[Iron Giant]

i once took it upon myself to replace a pane of glass one of my workers had broken old vicarage .Turned out it was 200yr old and only 2mm thick .Well i ended up buying 4 mm glass and as i arrived to put it in the wind whipped up and i swear i saw something move in one of the ancient trees by the house [body swinging?] anyhoo i climbed the ladder with the glass in my hand harder than you think and set to cutting out the old putty with a stanley knife -only it was like concrete so flippin old. Ended up chiselling it out with a hammer and screwdriver how the other wafer panes beside it didnt crack lord knows. A couple of weeks later i went down back there to paint the frame climbs my ladder with tin of paint and when i got up there couldnt bleve it,it was already painted !

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