Xtreme 22

[Tuffers]

Coming out in about 5 weeks, £430.

Can I be the official WCF tester @Alex Gardiner? Grovel, grovel, /emoticons/smile.png

 

[RiceRocket]

£100 too much imo

 

[Luke Elliott]

I'm not convinced by the xtreme range. Not being able to run the hose internally - have you ever tried it outside? Right nuisance. Can't use conventional water saving devices. And what's the with the half way clamping point? I tend to clamp my SLX poles where I need them. But to avoid undue stress I tend to clamp them so that each section has a fair even distribution to the others. This aids stiffness and means that one section isn't taking more load than the others. Is the half way clamp point saying you can't do this? I definitely need more explanation. For now having three poles (25, 35, and 45) is my preference.

Also are the extreme poles a different grade of carbon to the SLX range?

 

[Tuffers]

I'm not convinced by the xtreme range. Not being able to run the hose internally - have you ever tried it outside? Right nuisance. Can't use conventional water saving devices. And what's the with the half way clamping point? I tend to clamp my SLX poles where I need them. But to avoid undue stress I tend to clamp them so that each section has a fair even distribution to the others. This aids stiffness and means that one section isn't taking more load than the others. Is the half way clamp point saying you can't do this? I definitely need more explanation. For now having three poles (25, 35, and 45) is my preference.
Also are the extreme poles a different grade of carbon to the SLX range?

Regarding external hose, are you not getting confused with the The Super-Lite® Modular Pole?

 

[Luke Elliott]

Possibly? I thought I watched a video on the xtreme poles which said it runs outside because it's modular?

 

[Tuffers]

@Smurf runs his hose externally I think.

 

[Luke Elliott]

Fair play. Horses for courses I guess. We all have our preferences.

 

[Alex Gardiner]

I'm not convinced by the xtreme range. Not being able to run the hose internally - have you ever tried it outside? Right nuisance. Can't use conventional water saving devices. And what's the with the half way clamping point? I tend to clamp my SLX poles where I need them. But to avoid undue stress I tend to clamp them so that each section has a fair even distribution to the others. This aids stiffness and means that one section isn't taking more load than the others. Is the half way clamp point saying you can't do this? I definitely need more explanation. For now having three poles (25, 35, and 45) is my preference.
Also are the extreme poles a different grade of carbon to the SLX range?

The hose on the Xtreme poles is run internally the same as all of our other Telescopic poles. The only time this changes is when you are wanting to add a second modular extension (no.11) to an Xtreme47 - then the hose needs to be external to allow for quick removal and adding of extension sections.

The most conventional water saving device is a flow valve fitted to the pole hose, these can of course be used with an Xtreme pole - these have been in use for many years and are being used by thousands of window cleaners such as myself in this video - [media]

[/media]
The halfway clamping point would seem to be a disadvantage until you try working with it and then you quickly realize that if anything it speeds the work up.

Having said all of that the SLX is a very good pole and is hard to beat - the Xtreme is better, but is a lot more expensive due to the much higher modulus carbon fibre used in its construction, and does need a more regular care and maintenance program.

 

[Alex Gardiner]

Coming out in about 5 weeks, £430.
Can I be the official WCF tester @Alex Gardiner? Grovel, grovel, /emoticons/smile.png

/emoticons/smile.png/emoticons/wink.png

 

[Tuffers]

Does that mean a :thumbsup: or :thumbsdown: to my kind offer of a free trial?

You know I'll do an unbiased review Mr G :hiding:

 

[Alex Gardiner]

Does that mean a :thumbsup: or :thumbsdown: to my kind offer of a free trial?
You know I'll do an unbiased review Mr G :hiding:

:thumbsdown: - Unfortunately for you there is nothing left to test or trial on this product - it just builds on the current technology with a new size.

 

[Tuffers]

Boo, ban him @Gav /emoticons/biggrin.png

At least I tried /emoticons/smile.png, my finger keeps hovering over the add to basket on the 25' Xtreme and I kept thinking, 18' too short, 25' too long. 22' just right, will have to save my pennies up.

 

[Luke Elliott]

The hose on the Xtreme poles is run internally the same as all of our other Telescopic poles. The only time this changes is when you are wanting to add a second modular extension (no.11) to an Xtreme47 - then the hose needs to be external to allow for quick removal and adding of extension sections.
The most conventional water saving device is a flow valve fitted to the pole hose, these can of course be used with an Xtreme pole - these have been in use for many years and are being used by thousands of window cleaners such as myself in this video - [media]

Thank you for your reply @Alex Gardiner If you don't mind I have a few more questions.

So when you add a modular extension to any one of the xtreme poles ( I watched a video on your website where you turned a 25 into a 30 all the way up to turning a 47 into an 80) does that mean you have to pull the hose out of the pole in its standard trim? Before you fit the extension? It doesn't strike me as very quick? Trying to save time by having an extension but you've got to re route your internal hose each time? Unless you run it outside all the time? Or am I missing something? And in the scenario where you're cleaning say minimum 35ft; and there are cars parked below your pole. I've tried an external hose in that situation and it becomes really annoying. But maybe other people are better at it.

I'm intrigued - what care and maintenance do you recommend for your poles? I'm using SLX poles so I guess I'd be more interested to know if there's anything I can learn there. But how it differs to the xtreme.

Could you explain the half way clamping point to me a bit further? Is it just a guide so you know when you're half way? Or are you ONLY meant to clamp there and at the end? If so does that mean that my clamping technique would not work for an extreme pole? Would that not make the adjustment more incremental? Ie if you extend a pole and realise you're a foot short of optimum length, you then have to effectively extend it by another three feet taking it over optimum length? This may seem hyper critical but I find you get very good at knowing exactly how far to extend the pole. Having only predetermined places to clamp could inhibit that? However I've not tried it so I am only imagining.

The problem with just using a flow control valve as far as I see, is it's not really a water saving device. It's just a shut off for when you're finished cleaning. In order to engage and shut off the water you have to release one hand from the pole which means supporting the pole in the other or leaning it against the wall. As you do in the video. So you're unlikely to shut off the water until you've finished cleaning an entire section. Which for me can be the entire side of an office block. So by extension you can't save water during the cleaning process. If you tried to it would add time and you end up not bothering. Once you're cleaning for that long you'll tend to drop it on on the floor rather than hold it all the time. Aquadaptors make it easier to shut off the water but again a bit awkward to shut it off during cleaning. Unless you have a big space between moving from one window to the next. But even then again, it's a conscious active action to engage and shut off so you probably won't bother. Hands down the best device for saving water is the trigger. It's less of an active action to engage and shut off water and more passive. You effectively engage the water by grasping the pole and disengage by releasing it. But you can go much further. You can pulse while scrubbing. So for example I tend to engage water on the up stroke, shut off on the down stroke and while scrubbing the sill. Then obviously engage for the rinse. I only do this when water saving is necessary but it is shocking how much can be saved and once you get used to the process it does not add time. In fact to do it any other way you feel like you're wasting water. So for me to not fit a trigger to a pole is a sacrifice. Some days my tank won't complete the day without the water saving of a trigger. But with it we've managed to make a 500 litre tank work for a 2 man day and not sacrifice speed or quality of work. I've then worked with a chap who has a 900 litre tank and no water saving other than a flow control valve and we ran out three quarters of the way through the day. This presents a big obstacle for me to employ the extension system. But I haven't worked with many experienced window cleaners so maybe I'm a bit on my own with this one. It's just methods that I have developed based on what's available which seem logical to me.

Saying all of this though, I am very happy and impressed with the SLX range. It's weight and stiffness has allowed me to reduce my pole armoury from four poles to three. We no longer use 18's. 25's have become the default daily pole and it's amazing what they reach. So much so that we stopped using 30's and went to 35's because the 30's weren't getting used.

 

[Tuffers]

Thank you for your reply @Alex Gardiner If you don't mind I have a few more questions.
So when you add a modular extension to any one of the xtreme poles ( I watched a video on your website where you turned a 25 into a 30 all the way up to turning a 47 into an 80) does that mean you have to pull the hose out of the pole in its standard trim? Before you fit the extension? It doesn't strike me as very quick? Trying to save time by having an extension but you've got to re route your internal hose each time? Unless you run it outside all the time? Or am I missing something? And in the scenario where you're cleaning say minimum 35ft; and there are cars parked below your pole. I've tried an external hose in that situation and it becomes really annoying. But maybe other people are better at it.

I'm intrigued - what care and maintenance do you recommend for your poles? I'm using SLX poles so I guess I'd be more interested to know if there's anything I can learn there. But how it differs to the xtreme.

Could you explain the half way clamping point to me a bit further? Is it just a guide so you know when you're half way? Or are you ONLY meant to clamp there and at the end? If so does that mean that my clamping technique would not work for an extreme pole? Would that not make the adjustment more incremental? Ie if you extend a pole and realise you're a foot short of optimum length, you then have to effectively extend it by another three feet taking it over optimum length? This may seem hyper critical but I find you get very good at knowing exactly how far to extend the pole. Having only predetermined places to clamp could inhibit that? However I've not tried it so I am only imagining.

The problem with just using a flow control valve as far as I see, is it's not really a water saving device. It's just a shut off for when you're finished cleaning. In order to engage and shut off the water you have to release one hand from the pole which means supporting the pole in the other or leaning it against the wall. As you do in the video. So you're unlikely to shut off the water until you've finished cleaning an entire section. Which for me can be the entire side of an office block. So by extension you can't save water during the cleaning process. If you tried to it would add time and you end up not bothering. Once you're cleaning for that long you'll tend to drop it on on the floor rather than hold it all the time. Aquadaptors make it easier to shut off the water but again a bit awkward to shut it off during cleaning. Unless you have a big space between moving from one window to the next. But even then again, it's a conscious active action to engage and shut off so you probably won't bother. Hands down the best device for saving water is the trigger. It's less of an active action to engage and shut off water and more passive. You effectively engage the water by grasping the pole and disengage by releasing it. But you can go much further. You can pulse while scrubbing. So for example I tend to engage water on the up stroke, shut off on the down stroke and while scrubbing the sill. Then obviously engage for the rinse. I only do this when water saving is necessary but it is shocking how much can be saved and once you get used to the process it does not add time. In fact to do it any other way you feel like you're wasting water. So for me to not fit a trigger to a pole is a sacrifice. Some days my tank won't complete the day without the water saving of a trigger. But with it we've managed to make a 500 litre tank work for a 2 man day and not sacrifice speed or quality of work. I've then worked with a chap who has a 900 litre tank and no water saving other than a flow control valve and we ran out three quarters of the way through the day. This presents a big obstacle for me to employ the extension system. But I haven't worked with many experienced window cleaners so maybe I'm a bit on my own with this one. It's just methods that I have developed based on what's available which seem logical to me.

Saying all of this though, I am very happy and impressed with the SLX range. It's weight and stiffness has allowed me to reduce my pole armoury from four poles to three. We no longer use 18's. 25's have become the default daily pole and it's amazing what they reach. So much so that we stopped using 30's and went to 35's because the 30's weren't getting used.

Phew, I'm knackered reading all that /emoticons/biggrin.png

 

[Alex Gardiner]

Hi Luke

I will try and address your questions. Please note that I am not trying to convince you to switch to the Xtreme poles - I am more than happy that you continue with the SLX poles.

With our quick-release gooseneck and pole hose it is very easy to add telescopic extension packs to the Xtreme poles. To make a 25ft into a 35ft, you would need to:

1. Remove the gooseneck, disconnect the pole hose and allow the pole hose to drop out of the bottom of the pole

2. Remove the end cap and slide on the telescopic extension pack

3. Feed the hose back up from the base of the pole and out of the top of the pole

4. Connect to the push-fit connector under the gooseneck and refit the gooseneck.

You now have extended the pole with an extension pack and the pole hose is still internal. You repeat the above process with adding the Xtreme44 extension pack and also the first of the modular extensions. (note: you will need to change hose-packs so that you have enough hose).

When adding a second or subsequent modular extensions you would then need to run the hose externally. The process is as follows:

1. Remove the gooseneck, disconnect the pole hose and allow the pole hose to drop out of the bottom of the pole

2. Disconnect the brush from the gooseneck hose

3. Refit the gooseneck into the top of the pole

4. Connect the pole hose back up to the brush connector

5. Extend the pole and loop the pole hose around the pole as the pole is extended

6. When all of the first 10 telescopic sections have been extended then simply push fit on the 2nd modular extension and so on as needed

The real key to making this work is to gently wind the hose around the pole as it is extended upwards, this way you will never have any hose falling down from the window.

The pole maintenance guide can be found on our website - http://www.gardinerpolesystems.co.uk/Telescopic Pole User Guide 2013 - VII.pdf

With the SLX you can get away with not following this guide too closely. However with the Xtreme pole you do need to be meticulous in cleaning the pole every week. Also the joint stop tape and particularly the bottom wrap on each section needs checking and renewing every 2-3 months.

The halfway clamping points are the only points that it can be clamped at - as well as fully shut and fully open. The way they are made means the clamps do not operate at any other point. It is slightly restrictive compared to being able to clamp anywhere on the pole, but in reality it makes the decision on where to clamp a lot quicker. The Xtreme47 does have clamping at 1/3 and 2/3 on the base section to help with incremental adjustment at full stretch. In reality most clients find this more than enough and most comment that it speeds them up.

The Xtreme poles can be used with a trigger just the same as any other telescopic pole. However they would need removing if adding extensions. SO this is nto a sacrifice that needs to be made. I personally do not add extensions to my Xtreme poles, but have different size poles for different work (Xtreme18, 25, 35 & 47) However, used correctly, a flow valve will provide just as much control and as much water saving benefits. If you take a look at this video you can see how my method of working does not interfere with the pole's use at all and provides instant control at all times. [media]

[/media] If you look at 1.27 into the video you will see that you can turn the flow off whilst still holding the pole in the middle of your work. It is not just for when you have finished your work.
Personally I would find a fixed trigger very awkward having to hold it closed all of the time and restrictive in my use and handling of the pole. I would happily have a race against someone using a trigger and would be confident that I would be just as quick and use no more water using a pole flow valve. However it is good that there are several options as different methods suit different people and how they like to work.

I'm glad that the SLX poles have helped improved your work and hope they continue to be of benefit to you.

 

[Luke Elliott]

Hi Luke
I will try and address your questions. Please note that I am not trying to convince you to switch to the Xtreme poles - I am more than happy that you continue with the SLX poles.

With our quick-release gooseneck and pole hose it is very easy to add telescopic extension packs to the Xtreme poles. To make a 25ft into a 35ft, you would need to:

1. Remove the gooseneck, disconnect the pole hose and allow the pole hose to drop out of the bottom of the pole

2. Remove the end cap and slide on the telescopic extension pack

3. Feed the hose back up from the base of the pole and out of the top of the pole

4. Connect to the push-fit connector under the gooseneck and refit the gooseneck.

You now have extended the pole with an extension pack and the pole hose is still internal. You repeat the above process with adding the Xtreme44 extension pack and also the first of the modular extensions. (note: you will need to change hose-packs so that you have enough hose).

When adding a second or subsequent modular extensions you would then need to run the hose externally. The process is as follows:

1. Remove the gooseneck, disconnect the pole hose and allow the pole hose to drop out of the bottom of the pole

2. Disconnect the brush from the gooseneck hose

3. Refit the gooseneck into the top of the pole

4. Connect the pole hose back up to the brush connector

5. Extend the pole and loop the pole hose around the pole as the pole is extended

6. When all of the first 10 telescopic sections have been extended then simply push fit on the 2nd modular extension and so on as needed

The real key to making this work is to gently wind the hose around the pole as it is extended upwards, this way you will never have any hose falling down from the window.

The pole maintenance guide can be found on our website - http://www.gardinerpolesystems.co.uk/Telescopic Pole User Guide 2013 - VII.pdf

With the SLX you can get away with not following this guide too closely. However with the Xtreme pole you do need to be meticulous in cleaning the pole every week. Also the joint stop tape and particularly the bottom wrap on each section needs checking and renewing every 2-3 months.

The halfway clamping points are the only points that it can be clamped at - as well as fully shut and fully open. The way they are made means the clamps do not operate at any other point. It is slightly restrictive compared to being able to clamp anywhere on the pole, but in reality it makes the decision on where to clamp a lot quicker. The Xtreme47 does have clamping at 1/3 and 2/3 on the base section to help with incremental adjustment at full stretch. In reality most clients find this more than enough and most comment that it speeds them up.

The Xtreme poles can be used with a trigger just the same as any other telescopic pole. However they would need removing if adding extensions. SO this is nto a sacrifice that needs to be made. I personally do not add extensions to my Xtreme poles, but have different size poles for different work (Xtreme18, 25, 35 & 47) However, used correctly, a flow valve will provide just as much control and as much water saving benefits. If you take a look at this video you can see how my method of working does not interfere with the pole's use at all and provides instant control at all times. [media]

Thanks for your reply @Alex Gardiner . It's good to chat to the person behind those products we all use. I didn't think for a minute that you would be trying to sell me the xtreme poles. We are all different and all have our methods of working. I couldn't understand what was trying to be achieved with the xtreme pole. But it was interesting to try and understand the design philosophy behind it though. Wrapping the hose around the pole is a good idea. It all seems a bit much for me though. I'd rather run back to the truck for another pole. For now I'll stick with the SLX range /emoticons/smile.png but I thank you for your explanation. After all, I'm always on the look out for ways to do my job better.

I think the fixed trigger debate is brilliant one. I think when it comes to water saving or water control, personal preference probably comes in to it the most. The trigger is awkward to use at times, yes. You do have to adapt to that if you want to persist with it. Saying that, the new one allows the tigger to lock in place for all those awkward moments. However though they've fixed the three issues with the previous one, they've now caused other problems which I intend to feed back to them. But I also believe it is unrivalled for water saving. I would happily take you up on that race /emoticons/smile.png purely for science of course! Sorry, I do love a science experiment - mythbusters stylee. I'm up for it if you are /emoticons/wink.png

I know this is going off tangent now but while we're sort of on the subject - Thanks for bringing out the swivel neck and the brush super scraper. They both look brilliant and hopefully will be on point. Just like the quick release brushes and fast flip angle adapters were. All very good, well done! I've lots of ideas for window cleaning just don't have the resources to put them into action. Speaking of which, would it be possible to develop a brush with the softness of the superlite extreme but which is also a sill brush? I find the superlite extreme to be the kindest to delicate led windows. Also it is simply the best for getting into knoocks and crannies of frames. On monthly work I find you don't often need a stiffer brush as they are so clean already. The black soft sill brush you do is good, but not nearly as soft as the superlite extreme. I switch my brushes frequently. Currently I use both the hard and soft sill brushes and the superlite extreme. I think a superlite extreme sill brush would complete the set.

 

[cheapncheerful]

Phew, I'm knackered reading all that /emoticons/biggrin.png

your not the only one:rofl: good article though