Analogue controller

[Jango]

@spruce

@Davy G Thank you both for the Numax info. So a bit of info. Used the multi meter as mentioned above. All appeared to be ok. Drove me mad today, so I came home today and the clip that is neutral lead on the leisure battery, the black big cable was loose in the clip, so now that has been tightened and repaired it could be ok. So I’m going to charge the battery again and see how it does. I have to unclip these to charge so maybe that has contributed. 

 

[ched999uk]

Any poor connection will reduce the voltage! Plus a poor connection that is having a fair bit of current pulled through it will heat up! If excessively it can cause a fire!!!!

If you had measured the voltage at the controller or reel you might have found it lower that if you measured directly at the battery. That is how a multimeter can help find the fault. You will always get a slight voltage drop over a cable but not a lot if all connections are good as generally in the van most are shortish cables.

Can't see them in the images but just make sure you fuse each +ve wire from/to the battery nice and close to the battery terminal as that helps to stop cables catching fire if something goes wrong!!!

Great that you have found a poor connection. Hopefully that's you sorted and now you know what is recommended to replace it if necessary.

 

[Jango]

Any poor connection will reduce the voltage! Plus a poor connection that is having a fair bit of current pulled through it will heat up! If excessively it can cause a fire!!!!

If you had measured the voltage at the controller or reel you might have found it lower that if you measured directly at the battery. That is how a multimeter can help find the fault. You will always get a slight voltage drop over a cable but not a lot if all connections are good as generally in the van most are shortish cables.

Can't see them in the images but just make sure you fuse each +ve wire from/to the battery nice and close to the battery terminal as that helps to stop cables catching fire if something goes wrong!!!

Great that you have found a poor connection. Hopefully that's you sorted and now you know what is recommended to replace it if necessary.

Thank you @ched999uk.  Will look into the fuse situation, I do know between the battery and controller etc there are some fuses all in a little case. They are in the back of the van. Could they be what you mean? The wiring to the back of the van is all in trunking. A friend did it all for me, I will check though. Thanks again

 

[ched999uk]

Thank you @ched999uk.  Will look into the fuse situation, I do know between the battery and controller etc there are some fuses all in a little case. They are in the back of the van. Could they be what you mean? The wiring to the back of the van is all in trunking. A friend did it all for me, I will check though. Thanks again

Fuses are basically to protect cable not necessarily the item being powered! It's good to know where your fuses are, what each one is connected to and have spares!!

Quite often people have a cable come from battery then a couple if inches to a fuse then on to say controller or reel etc, a fair few have the fuses fitted in the battery box.

The problem with having the fuses further away is that if a cable gets rubbed it can short to the body of the van which is connected to the -ve battery terminal!!! Therefore lots of current can flow through a cable before a fuse and that can cause the insulation to heat and then catch fire. So always have fuse as close to battery as possible. Think about your home fuse board (consumer unit) it is connected by short fat cables to a big suppliers fuse (maybe 100Amp) and the meter. After the fuse board the cables are thinner as they are protected by a smaller fuse or circuit breaker. 

 

[Jango]

Fuses are basically to protect cable not necessarily the item being powered! It's good to know where your fuses are, what each one is connected to and have spares!!

Quite often people have a cable come from battery then a couple if inches to a fuse then on to say controller or reel etc, a fair few have the fuses fitted in the battery box.

The problem with having the fuses further away is that if a cable gets rubbed it can short to the body of the van which is connected to the -ve battery terminal!!! Therefore lots of current can flow through a cable before a fuse and that can cause the insulation to heat and then catch fire. So always have fuse as close to battery as possible. Think about your home fuse board (consumer unit) it is connected by short fat cables to a big suppliers fuse (maybe 100Amp) and the meter. After the fuse board the cables are thinner as they are protected by a smaller fuse or circuit breaker. 

I better get that sorted then. They are quite far away from the battery. Many thanks @ched999uk

 

[spruce]

Numax XV35MF 120 AH. 100 percent recommendation from me. I tried to find it online but was unable to. I phoned the place where I bought my last one three or four years ago (Swindon Caravan Centre). They don't have it in stock but they can get it. The last price they had was £155 but she said they will have gone up significantly. I'd expect if they can get it most caravan centres and battery suppliers throughout the country should be able to.

Not a cheap battery by any means but in my experience with batteries, you very much get what you pay for ie, no Halfords etc for me, right or wrong. I'm very much for the buy the biggest, best, meanest one I can sensibly get, from a professional local supplier. Fit and forget it. No messing with mains charging unless I have to. I never have to. Durite SCR take care of it. I have two batteries linked in tandem running two pumps and controllers. We use manual reels.

I cant be certain it's a combination battery but I think it probably is. I'm trying to find out but I'm not having much luck at the moment.

Edit : I've just spoken to a very helpful gentleman at BBL Swindon (formally Bristol Batteries). Matt, on 01793 616646. They have the Numax xv35mf on the shelf. He confirmed It is a combination battery. It's priced at just under £140. Delivery outside of the local area would be £12.50 on top.

A good connection is very important at the terminals and at every other connection, including the fuses. Over time, your battery will 'wear out'. It loses its capacity. They have a finite life span. Let's say your leisure battery started life as a 110 amp battery. When fully charged, that battery will read a voltage of 12.7 and above. After rest all night, my battery will register 13.01 volts.

As my previous battery aged, it lost capacity. I estimate when I replaced it, it had got around 20% capacity left, so a capacity of around 22 amps. It was a 110 amp leisure battery. When I bench charged it, it didn't take the charger long before it kicked into float mode. My battery had enough capacity to power my pump all day, so I never noticed the decline. When I fitted my diesel heater, I could start it 5 or 6 times and I started to see the battery voltage drop. The diesel heater switches off when the supply voltage drops to 10.5v. The moment the heater switched off, I saw the voltage of the battery climb back up to 12.3 volts almost instantly. It could have crept up to 12.4 or maybe 12.5 volts if left alone. Had I just read the battery voltage a couple of hours later, I would have assumed the battery was charged to 50% capacity.

When I recharged that battery, it showed a voltage of 12.9 volts, so fully charged according to the voltmeter.

Your leisure battery is 4 years old. That tells me it's worked hard and been looked after. My gut immediately tells me to look at replacing the leisure battery. If it was 1 year old then I wouldn't rule out other issues.

And I would also find a way of plugging your charger in. I have mine spiced into the cable that runs from the starter battery to the battery 2 battery charger with a 30 amp Torberry connector to plug in my Numax smart charger.

 

[Davy G]

A good connection is very important at the terminals and at every other connection, including the fuses. Over time, your battery will 'wear out'. It loses its capacity. They have a finite life span. Let's say your leisure battery started life as a 110 amp battery. When fully charged, that battery will read a voltage of 12.7 and above. After rest all night, my battery will register 13.01 volts.

As my previous battery aged, it lost capacity. I estimate when I replaced it, it had got around 20% capacity left, so a capacity of around 22 amps. It was a 110 amp leisure battery. When I bench charged it, it didn't take the charger long before it kicked into float mode. My battery had enough capacity to power my pump all day, so I never noticed the decline. When I fitted my diesel heater, I could start it 5 or 6 times and I started to see the battery voltage drop. The diesel heater switches off when the supply voltage drops to 10.5v. The moment the heater switched off, I saw the voltage of the battery climb back up to 12.3 volts almost instantly. It could have crept up to 12.4 or maybe 12.5 volts if left alone. Had I just read the battery voltage a couple of hours later, I would have assumed the battery was charged to 50% capacity.

When I recharged that battery, it showed a voltage of 12.9 volts, so fully charged according to the voltmeter.

Your leisure battery is 4 years old. That tells me it's worked hard and been looked after. My gut immediately tells me to look at replacing the leisure battery. If it was 1 year old then I wouldn't rule out other issues.

And I would also find a way of plugging your charger in. I have mine spiced into the cable that runs from the starter battery to the battery 2 battery charger with a 30 amp Torberry connector to plug in my Numax smart charger.

Interesting discussion. Don't forget in my case, I have 2 of those batteries linked in parallel so a theoretical combined capacity of well over 200 AH when new, so even with some age on them they amount to a huge reservoir. And they only have to work 2 controllers and pumps as we use manual reels.
I fitted a fuse protected mains charging flylead from the batteries to just inside the back doors. Not needed it yet. I haven't checked our daily mileage. Our furthest job nest is about 10 miles away. I'm going to guess a daily mileage of 5 to 30 miles and a count of about 20 to 34 or so jobs. Our controller readings are generally between 12.2 and 12.5 volts or so. It works for us. My theory is that because the SCR puts out a good and vigorous charge all be it in fairly short bursts, it keeps the batteries lively and fresh rather than them going stale and stagnant which I think might be the case with slower, longer charge cycles.

I don't know but this setup has been working flawlessly for me for several years.

 

[Deleted member 7446]

Morning Spruce

The story is my van battery died. I got a new one, then that died after 4 weeks. So they wondered if something was causing it. They tested the leisure battery and said it was performing ok. It showed 12.8 on a volt meter. Which I have realised doesn’t mean anything as this can drop rapidly when under load. 
Then they realised the new van battery was at fault, the cells in it was duff. So I got an exchange. 
But my leisure battery runs my pump and electric reel, so maybe I need a new one. Can you suggest a good one for me.

Thanks everyone. 

It sounds like your system ie pump hosereel etc is hammering your batteries current and regular charging isn't sufficient to replenish it. 

You'd be better off in my opinion with 2x batteries and one specifically for the hosereel 

 

[spruce]

It sounds like your system ie pump hosereel etc is hammering your batteries current and regular charging isn't sufficient to replenish it. 

You'd be better off in my opinion with 2x batteries and one specifically for the hosereel 

Having a separate leisure battery for the hose reel starts to get complicated. It would mean adding a separate charging vsr and the only way to charge them at night would either be separately or via the starter battery.

Again I believe that as his leisure battery has lasted 4 years, is just worn out and time to be recycled for a new one.

 

[Jango]

A good connection is very important at the terminals and at every other connection, including the fuses. Over time, your battery will 'wear out'. It loses its capacity. They have a finite life span. Let's say your leisure battery started life as a 110 amp battery. When fully charged, that battery will read a voltage of 12.7 and above. After rest all night, my battery will register 13.01 volts.

As my previous battery aged, it lost capacity. I estimate when I replaced it, it had got around 20% capacity left, so a capacity of around 22 amps. It was a 110 amp leisure battery. When I bench charged it, it didn't take the charger long before it kicked into float mode. My battery had enough capacity to power my pump all day, so I never noticed the decline. When I fitted my diesel heater, I could start it 5 or 6 times and I started to see the battery voltage drop. The diesel heater switches off when the supply voltage drops to 10.5v. The moment the heater switched off, I saw the voltage of the battery climb back up to 12.3 volts almost instantly. It could have crept up to 12.4 or maybe 12.5 volts if left alone. Had I just read the battery voltage a couple of hours later, I would have assumed the battery was charged to 50% capacity.

When I recharged that battery, it showed a voltage of 12.9 volts, so fully charged according to the voltmeter.

Your leisure battery is 4 years old. That tells me it's worked hard and been looked after. My gut immediately tells me to look at replacing the leisure battery. If it was 1 year old then I wouldn't rule out other issues.

And I would also find a way of plugging your charger in. I have mine spiced into the cable that runs from the starter battery to the battery 2 battery charger with a 30 amp Torberry connector to plug in my Numax smart charger.

Thanks everyone. 
Thank you @spruce for the detailed information. I will order a new numax battery and also look at getting other things sorted like putting fuses near the battery. Thanks everyone for your valuable comments really appreciate it. 

 

[ched999uk]

One last tip. Don't just throw away your battery, take it to a scrap merchant as they will probably give you £5 or £10 for it!

 

[spruce]

Thanks everyone. 
Thank you @spruce for the detailed information. I will order a new numax battery and also look at getting other things sorted like putting fuses near the battery. Thanks everyone for your valuable comments really appreciate it. 

Deciding if you need to change your leisure battery can be difficult as you have no concrete way of deciding if the battery is faulty or not.

The only way to check a battery's capacity is to put a know load on it and measure the time it takes to flatten the battery.  A single head bulb of 55 watts = 4.6 amps. Let's call it 4.5 amps. If the battery went flat after 6 hours, then the capacity of that battery is 6 x 4.5 = 27 amps.

Personally, I couldn't be bothered going through that process. Each time I've questioned if I needed to replace a battery, I have found the problem solved with a new battery. Obviously, if the battery is just a few months old, then it's either a faulty battery or  some other reason which requires identifying the rectifying.

 

[ched999uk]

Deciding if you need to change your leisure battery can be difficult as you have no concrete way of deciding if the battery is faulty or not.

The only way to check a battery's capacity is to put a know load on it and measure the time it takes to flatten the battery.  A single head bulb of 55 watts = 4.6 amps. Let's call it 4.5 amps. If the battery went flat after 6 hours, then the capacity of that battery is 6 x 4.5 = 27 amps.

Personally, I couldn't be bothered going through that process. Each time I've questioned if I needed to replace a battery, I have found the problem solved with a new battery. Obviously, if the battery is just a few months old, then it's either a faulty battery or  some other reason which requires identifying the rectifying.

There are gauges that tell you how much capacity is left in a battery but they are a couple of hundred £. I have seen fire alarm engineers testing batteries write the remaining capacity on the sealed lead acids and when we had a motorhome the service engineer used to include battery capacity in the report using the same sort of meter. 

This sort of thing : https://actmeters.co.uk/battery-testing/chrome-ibt 

 

[Jango]

Since the loose connection has been resolved, it’s worked great today. I can’t believe the difference. I get what your saying about the battery. I can’t be bothered to do the tests either but interesting to know @spruce. 
maybe I should bite the bullet and go for a new battery, otherwise it may fail and cost me a days lost work. 
The garage where I needed a new van battery had a meter that told him the new battery was 34% and read on the lcd screen bad. That’s why they exchanged it. Don’t know if it’s the same kind of meter. He’s a good friend of my brothers , he has told him he wants me to pop in the garage again as he has bought a new battery tester costing a few hundred and would like to test my van battery to make sure that’s fine and my leisure battery, so I might go tomorrow, just out of curiosity. 
Thanks again @ched999uk