dam battory again

[tench0771]

my battoty powers my H.D power up real and wfp pump i dont have a split charge but i bench charge every night after use but im geting a year out of a  battory ?? is this the power up killing it or is it cos its not the best battory i pay £80 for them 

 

[alfie92]

Get a split relay put in and run everything of that and put a trickle charge unit in the back of your van and let it charge every day


Sent from my iPhone using Window Cleaning Forums

 

[tench0771]

 

[spruce]

This is a difficult question to answer.

The HD 350 watt motor draws 14.6amps at 24v. According to OHMs law a 350 watt motor at 12v should draw 29amps. However, I don't know if OHM's law applies to feeding a 24v motor with 12v (half the power.) I do know that this motor's rpm is reduced by 50% using 12v and that the torque (turning force) is also reduced by half, but I don't know what happens to the amps.

What size fuse do Waterworks supply with their system? This is a good indicator. A Shurflo pumps draws about 4.5 amps an hour. If you have a motor drawing 15 amp for 30 seconds winding a hose in, then that current surge is still going to hammer the leisure battery. If the hose gets jammed and the motor stalls, then the motor is acting like an electrical short.

Now, a leisure battery is supposed to work best with a trickle draw where a starter battery is designed totally the opposite way with a large current output. For example, our 2.0l diesels take an intial current draw of about 200 amps by the starter just to get the motor to turn. This obviously drops off very quickly in the first second of the starter motor in operation. (If you had you spread that current draw over an hour it would be a liitle more than our Shurflo pumps draw in an hour.)

But the world of leisure batteries is changing. Caravaners need a leisure battery that will also drive high current usage caravan movers. So some leisure batteries now show a CCA (cold cranking amps) value. So they are drifting toward the realms of traction batteries - able to act as leisure and starting batteries.

As I have said before, Numax told me that they will not give a warranty on a battery used by a window cleaner as "we are battery abusers" and the most we can expect to get out of a leisure battery is a year. (We still have a Numax 85 amp battery which is 6 years old. It hasn't the 85amph capacity it once had but still works. The other one was 5 years old before it failed.  We have always had long service from Numax batteries.)

These HD reels are pretty new on the market. Your comments of a leisure battery only lasting a year seem to indicate that this was still the case before you purchased your HD reel. If so, then its not the hose reel causing the issue.

The one thing about a split charge relay is it allows the higher charging voltage of the vans alternator to keep the chemical action inside the battery at optimum. My intelligent battery charger charges the battery at 13.9v max - my alternator does it from anywhere between 14.2 to 14.5v.

But you have a new van with regenerative charging (I think), so fitting a simple (cheap) SCR isn't a solution for you.

.

 

[tench0771]

to be honist i used to never have a problim before just using a standerd hose real but its since i started using the power up that the issue started the fuse on the power up is a 30 green one 

 

[tench0771]

 

[spruce]

View attachment 11315

Thanks. So the manufacturer expects your reel will draw close to 30 amps. If it was less than 25 amps they would have supplied a 25 amp fuse.

So lets look a little more closely at the battery.

http://www.alpha-batteries.co.uk/85-ah-platinum-leisure-battery-685l/?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIiMTx2Lul1gIV6pztCh0mAgk4EAQYASABEgKXXPD_BwE

The technical specs say it must not be used for driving a caravan mover - the product description tells you to "If you have a Motormover fitted we would recommend choosing a more powerful battery."

It isn't suitable for wild camping. The product description says that "This battery is ideal for light Leisure use and very common in Caravans." In other words this battery isn't suitable for running power hungry electrical gadgets (12v fridges etc used in wild camping.)

The battery also doesn't show a cca value. So its my opinion that the battery is probably okay for a single operator running a wfp pump but the power surge for running the electric hose reel isn't within its capabilities.

Even its low recharge cycles of 70 condemn it to the anals of poor quality.

I have chosen a Numax leisure battery of the same 75 amph as a comparison.

It shows a CCA of 550. The price is cheaper as well from Tayna.

https://www.tayna.co.uk/Numax-LV22MF-Sealed-Leisure-Battery-P7672.html

The bigger 105 amph batteries are 'drifting' into calcium technology and leaning toward a dual purpose (leisure and starter) traction battery applications with 1000 CCA (Cold Cranking Amps) with 500 cycles. This is good for motormovers so will also work better for you electric reel.

https://www.tayna.co.uk/Numax-CXV30HMF-P3672.html

I honestly believe you need a bigger capacity battery to start with.

BTW. A caravan motor mover specs are:    

Average Current Consumption 20 A
Max Current Consumption 80 A

 

[tench0771]

thanks so much for the info spruce i will get the  numax 105 i think as its about the same price as what ive just brought but up to the job now can i just pick your brains again wile on the subject , how often would you charge a numax battory if using it 10 hours a day withy a power up HD ect bench charge every night ? wich is what i do at the minit

 

[Den]

I have a 75ah battery that came with my compact 325 over a year ago and since adding a power up hd the battery seems to drain a lot quicker I also think my battery needs changing.

Spruce is this numax battery linked below to good enough Spec for my one man setup with the HD reel. 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/12V-110AH-Numax-XV31MF-Ultra-Deep-Cycle-Leisure-Marine-Battery-3-years-Wrnty-/190603406688?epid=1505478222&hash=item2c60d92d60:g:wt4AAOSw4f5YCfFE

 

[spruce]

thanks so much for the info spruce i will get the  numax 105 i think as its about the same price as what ive just brought but up to the job now can i just pick your brains again wile on the subject , how often would you charge a numax battory if using it 10 hours a day withy a power up HD ect bench charge every night ? wich is what i do at the minit

Personally @tench0771 I would charge it every night. But its easy for me to say that as I just have to run a cable and charger to the van and plug it in. I don't have to lift the battery out and take it inside as others have to.

They recommend that a leisure battery will provide good service if its kept above 50% charged. However, the most abused Numax was my son in law's when he worked with us and that's still working and is 6 years old. He only ever charged it when his battery went flat as he just relied on his split charge relay. He often went home 1/2 way through the day when his battery 'died'.

If you have a similar work pattern to us, we estimate that our pump/s only work for around 50% of a normal window cleaning day. A pump draws 4.5 amps an hour so you can expect to take around 25 amps from a Numax 105 amp battery leaving you with 80 amps.

I don't know how long your average 'reel in' takes as I doubt you will draw the full 100 meters of hose out each time. (Judging by the wear on our hose I estimate that we really use more than 25 meters - I only use 100 meters once a month on a commercial job.) Now let say your reel is drawing 25 amps reeling in the hose.   If you reel it in 20 times a day and the reel runs for 20 seconds (guess as I don't have one) you are only using about 3 amps using your reel (in theory.) Lets round that up to 5 amps.

So your battery has delivered around 30 amps on this day's work. If you didn't charge it that night and did the same the following day, your battery would be just over 40% charged, below the recommended 50%.

Now we have a problem when charging leisure batteries using a standard intelligent battery charger and its to do with the leisure industry and safety. The manufacturers hold the charge rate at a maximum of 13.8/13.9 volts as they are guaranteed that no harmful gasses will be given off during the charging process at this voltage. This is insufficient to prevent sulphation of the plates and will lead to the premature demise of the battery. Charging to 14.4V or more, under proper charging protocols, will prolong battery life.

Caravans get towed and virtually every tow car has a split charge relay to power the caravan's 12 volt fridge when driving and top up the leisure battery at the same time. An alternator will push a higher rate of charge into the battery and stir up the chemical reaction in the battery keeping it more healthy.

So by just using a standard charger alone isn't sufficient to keep the leisure battery 'healthy.' I sometimes leave my battery on charge over the weekend so is fully charged. On Monday the alternator will still charge the battery at 2 amps on the way to work, showing that the battery isn't fully charged, even although it being serviced all weekend with an intelligent motorhome leisure battery charger.

I honestly believe that we can't expect to get long service life from a battery that isn't charged properly, and an intelligent leisure battery charger on it own isn't up to the job. On an older van a simple split charge relay along with overnight charging is a much better solution. On newer vans with regenerative charging the best solution is to invest in a battery to battery charger. I would go with the Sterling unit every time.  

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Sterling-Power-12v-30amp-Battery-to-Battery-Charger-BB1230-/252410937461?hash=item3ac4dd4075:g:iUoAAOSwyltZTR4-

They are coming down in price!

 

[spruce]

I have a 75ah battery that came with my compact 325 over a year ago and since adding a power up hd the battery seems to drain a lot quicker I also think my battery needs changing.

Spruce is this numax battery linked below to good enough Spec for my one man setup with the HD reel. 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/12V-110AH-Numax-XV31MF-Ultra-Deep-Cycle-Leisure-Marine-Battery-3-years-Wrnty-/190603406688?epid=1505478222&hash=item2c60d92d60:g:wt4AAOSw4f5YCfFE

In my opinion, yes.

Its a dual purpose battery and has a CCA value of 800amps. That means it will start my Citroen Relay 2.0 hdi no problem. These dual purpose batteries follow the lines of heavy duty traction batteries, good as a starter and leisure battery.

Please bear in mind that unless Numax's policy has changed, you will have to carry your own risk. A few years back Numax said that they didn't honour warranties on batteries for window cleaning applications as we are battery abusers.

None the less I still use them as they are a quality battery.

I had a similar Numax 110 amp and that lasted me well over 3 years. It faultered once toward the end on a big job with 2 of us working so it got replaced. My guess is that it would have carried on longer with lower power demands of our normal working day. 

 

[Nudel]

I have regenerative charging on my van, and when I had a chat with a guy selling batteries about installing an (insanely expensive) battery to battery charger, he said a simple zener diode from the rear 12v cigarette plug would be good for simple trickle charging when driving. Thoughts?

 

[Den]

Spruce appreciate your wisdom now not sure what one to order lol the one you posted or the other in the eBay link I posted.

 

[spruce]

I have regenerative charging on my van, and when I had a chat with a guy selling batteries about installing an (insanely expensive) battery to battery charger, he said a simple zener diode from the rear 12v cigarette plug would be good for simple trickle charging when driving. Thoughts?

I'm not an electronics expert but I would imagine that had the solution been a zenner diode then that would have been a solution used by many.

You will find some very helpful info if you play this video.





Once you understand the issues you will then realise that the solution is a little more complex than fitting a zenner diode and trickle charging. Trickle charging isn't enough to keep a leisure battery fully charged in our industry. You need to put as much charge into your leisure battery as fast as it can take it without causing damage to the plates of the battery.

 

[spruce]

Spruce appreciate your wisdom now not sure what one to order lol the one you posted or the other in the eBay link I posted.

105amps to 110 amps. 5 amps is running a pump for another hour.

It doesn't matter much either way. I would tend to lean toward the 110amp but that me.

 

[Den]

105amps to 110 amps. 5 amps is running a pump for another hour.

It doesn't matter much either way. I would tend to lean toward the 110amp but that me.

Thanks again 

 

[tench0771]

thanks for the info spruce  u defo no your stuff cheers  :1f44d:

 

[Ash87]

@tench0771 hey Bud cheers for stopping today, good to have a chat ! If you speak to that fella could you give me a heads up ? 

 

[tench0771]

@tench0771 hey Bud cheers for stopping today, good to have a chat ! If you speak to that fella could you give me a heads up ? 

yes m8 ill let u no as soon as i speak to him ill pop over to his house tomorow or monday   ,defo nice to catch up today m8 i only did to more jobs after i saw u as started fieling rough again blady tonsillits is nocking me for 6  :1f61e:  and to top it off no wine for me this weekend or fishing grrrrr  :1f4a9: