Faulty Thermopure System (Ionic System)

[dazmond]

I have had several over the years , if the boiler stops working it could be the battery voltage is too low ionics have a habit of not putting batteries on there systems with a  highenough amp hour I have 2x 180 amp batteries on mine and never have a problem . 

Point 2 it could be a fuel starvation as they might have connected the fuel line in the wrong pipe and this will also cause it not to run I think this maybe your problem I think @dazmond had this issue with his Grippatank one hopefully he will see this and be able to comment , hope you get it sorted out 

i reckon hes got the same problem.....i cant believe ionics  dont know it could be a fuel issue......?

 

[Part Timer]

i reckon hes got the same problem.....i cant believe ionics  dont know it could be a fuel issue......?

I can't believe anyone would tap into the return fuel line

 

[dazmond]

I can't believe anyone would tap into the return fuel line

yep thats the standard way to integrate these diesel hot water systems into a window cleaning vans fuel tank....

 

[Pjj]

I can't believe anyone would tap into the return fuel line

Thats how Grippatank have fitted mine 

 

[spruce]

I have a funny feeling it’s to do with the fuel system in the Ford. Give Oliver at Grippa a ring as they found a problem with the type of vans fuel systems cutting off when the engine stopped.

On some older vans the diesel return to tank pipe went into the tank and ended about 3/4 of the way in. This was an ideal situation as they could tap into this return and use it as a way of supplying diesel to a diesel heater. I have done mine this way with my diesel air heater. I'm also assured that the diesel heater will never drain my diesel tank completely.

But the van you refer to belongs to @dazmond. On his they ended the return at the top of the tank. So when Grippa used this return as a fuel source they tested it with the engine running so the return always had diesel in it.

When the engine was switched off the diesel in the pipe ran out.

You make a good point. On the surface it sounds as though the battery is low on charge causing the heater to cut out. But it could also be a fuel problem.

I found this pdf a little while back.

View attachment 16539

 

[spruce]

I have been told that it is now illegal to tap directly into the vans fuel system, some EU Law, something to do with safety, I think @sprucedug it out. 

I'm about to transfer my hot water system to a new Dispatch and Pure Freedom won't do it, I will have to carry a Jerry Can around. 

A lot of people make the mistake of just communicating by phone, always best when it's a fault to do it by emails or even text so you have a paper trail

PureFreedom came out with this a while ago but I was never able to find this EU directive.

Webasto still fit a seperate pickup pipe into the top of the vehicles tank so I don't think this directive exists.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Fuel-Tank-Sender-Stand-Pipe-Pick-Up-Clip-For-Webasto-Eberspacher-Heater-490MM/273839022818?hash=item3fc213e2e2:gQ4AAOSwdQ5c1C6f

Its easier for a company to fit a seperate tank and be assured of no comebacks.

On my new Boxer van I have the choice of drilling out the top of the fuel pump and fuel level sender and fitting a dip tube, or just drilling a hole in the top of the tank. To drill a hole in the top of the tank, the tank has to be lowered. Its labour intensive and a right 'chew'. Probably easier to just refuse to do this and fit a seperate tank.

An outboard marine tank is a good, cheap option they can fit easily and will hold 25 liters.It can be filled outside of the van at the fuel station and will save diesel overfill spills inside the van.

 

[Pjj]

When Grippatank fitted the boiler to my brand new van they contacted Renault uk and renault told them to connect into the return to tank fuel supply, so that was what they did , webasto supply a tee and all the fuel line clips as a kit so it is obviously an approved way of fitting it , but as @spruce has said some vehicles return to tanks are not suitable ,if I were a betting man I would put money on it that ionics have connected it without checking if it will work on the fuel return  on the ford , typical ionics you cannnot tell them anything . I had a new 5 micron filter off them a couple of months ago and it was not made right the end came off it and it flooded my van to a depth of 12 inches , ionics denighed  that was possible evan after I supplied them with photographic proof , they refused to do anything about it apart from replace the filter , when I threatened them with legal action surprise surprise the bosses son suddenly offers me compensation , funny old thing that . 

PureFreedom came out with this a while ago but I was never able to find this EU directive.

Webasto still fit a seperate pickup pipe into the top of the vehicles tank so I don't think this directive exists.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Fuel-Tank-Sender-Stand-Pipe-Pick-Up-Clip-For-Webasto-Eberspacher-Heater-490MM/273839022818?hash=item3fc213e2e2:gQ4AAOSwdQ5c1C6f

Its easier for a company to fit a seperate tank and be assured of no comebacks.

On my new Boxer van I have the choice of drilling out the top of the fuel pump and fuel level sender and fitting a dip tube, or just drilling a hole in the top of the tank. To drill a hole in the top of the tank, the tank has to be lowered. Its labour intensive and a right 'chew'. Probably easier to just refuse to do this and fit a seperate tank.

An outboard marine tank is a good, cheap option they can fit easily and will hold 25 liters.It can be filled outside of the van at the fuel station and will save diesel overfill spills inside the van.

The only problem with a separate  tank inside the van is that it stinks of diesel I had one like that years ago and the smell was awful 

 

[spruce]

Mine is tapped directly into van fuel tank. I wonder if to bypass EU rules they are using fuel lines. 

Trust me, they don't want to do the job.

If it takes them a whole day to fit a system, then having to drop a fuel tank and fit a stand pipe will take that job into the following day. That becomes a logistics issue in their workshop.

There is a way to take diesel from each makers fuel tank which is manufacturer approved. In @dazmond's example, Grippa got the parts required from Ford. Once they fitted those then it works perfectly.

 

[Part Timer]

yep thats the standard way to integrate these diesel hot water systems into a window cleaning vans fuel tank....

Thats how Grippatank have fitted mine 

I'm not a mechanic but surely the return fuel line only has diesel in it when the engine is running. If you don't move for 5 or 6 hours running the hot water system you are bound to run out of fuel!!!

 

[dazmond]

I'm not a mechanic but surely the return fuel line only has diesel in it when the engine is running. If you don't move for 5 or 6 hours running the hot water system you are bound to run out of fuel!!!

obviously not!

 

[Pjj]

I'm not a mechanic but surely the return fuel line only has diesel in it when the engine is running. If you don't move for 5 or 6 hours running the hot water system you are bound to run out of fuel!!!

Some return to tank fuel lines have non return valves fitted to them so you cannot draw fuel from the tank only take the fuel from it if the engine is running , with mine on the master van the return to tank fuel line is just a pipe back to the tank so you can suck fuel out of the tank up it to the boiler , hope that makes sense . My van has a 105 ltr fuel tank so won’t run out any time soon ????

 

[Part Timer]

Some return to tank fuel lines have non return valves fitted to them so you cannot draw fuel from the tank only take the fuel from it if the engine is running , with mine on the master van the return to tank fuel line is just a pipe back to the tank so you can suck fuel out of the tank up it to the boiler , hope that makes sense . My van has a 105 ltr fuel tank so won’t run out any time soon ????

Always thought they had non return valves on, obviously not

 

[Pjj]

Always thought they had non return valves on, obviously not

As as I said earlier renault uk told Grippatank to fit it like that so one assumes that it’s ok on a renault, but not nessasarily the right way on a Ford . 

 

[spruce]

I'm not a mechanic but surely the return fuel line only has diesel in it when the engine is running. If you don't move for 5 or 6 hours running the hot water system you are bound to run out of fuel!!!

On my van the diesel return to tank is just a pipe that goes into the tank to just below my 1/4 tank mark. When the engine is running that pipe is full of fuel and will remain full of fuel until I run my van down to below 1/4. The Webasto's fuel pump, or in my case Eberspacher fuel pump, will draw diesel back through the return the other way as it would a seperate pickup up.

But if the diesel pipe return ends at the top of the tank, it can't be used as a pickup pipe without modification.

Webasto go the great lengths to reduce the amount of drillings (swaff) going into the tank when fitting a stand pipe pickup. If it's a lorry steel tank then they use grease on the hole saw and a strong magnet.

In my case, I will check and see if I can still use my return to tank pipe as I did with my 04 plate Citroen Relay. If I can't then I would remove the fuel tank pump and drill the suggested hole outside to no drillings get into the tank. If I were to mount a seperate standpipe into the top of the tank I would still have to remove the fuel pump and find some way to catch those plastic bits of drillings from dropping into the tank.

 

[Phill DFR]

Guys,

thanks for all your comments, I am currently sat in Ionics waiting room with the van in the workshop.

lets see what the day has in store this time? (4th time of being here for repair work)

keep the comments coming regards the possibilities of what then issues could be.

cheers, Phill

 

[dazmond]

Guys,

thanks for all your comments, I am currently sat in Ionics waiting room with the van in the workshop.

lets see what the day has in store this time? (4th time of being here for repair work)

keep the comments coming regards the possibilities of what then issues could be.

cheers, Phill

tell them about the fuel issue i had with a similar system fitted at grippatank,i bet thats what it is......

 

[Phill DFR]

Hi guys,

this is the Webasto report after they have cleared it apparently? They didn’t log a report prior?

its all double Dutch I me but may make sense to someone?

also they are fitting a new loom permanently?



I’ll be getting the full Ionics report when I collect the van at 13:00!

 

[dazmond]

so is it finally working now mate with the engine off??

 

[Davy G]

so is it finally working now mate with the engine off??

Yeah mate. Is it sorted?

 

[Phill DFR]

YES .... the van appears to be working when the engine is off, new wiring, new parts fitted etc, hopefully this is the last of it and I can post positive issues!

Thanks for all your help guys, the comments were invaluable. ?

 

[dazmond]

YES .... the van appears to be working when the engine is off, new wiring, new parts fitted etc, hopefully this is the last of it and I can post positive issues!

Thanks for all your help guys, the comments were invaluable. ?

so did you ask them what the problem was?was it the wiring loom on the split charge relay?what a total faff for you esp if you ve had the system a year  and parted with an eye watering amount of money(grippatank would of been cheaper mate and would have fixed the problem straight away)....

still......hopefully you can just crack on with your work with hot water every day now without issues.....??