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[Martyn]

I’ve no idea if this is correct, but I would imagine that pure water is better for wooden frames than the soap and chemicals that trad cleaners use. ????

I would say that it washes away acids and other atmospheric contaminants and thus could potentially extend the life of a painted surface.

 

[Pjj]

I would say that it washes away acids and other atmospheric contaminants and thus could potentially extend the life of a painted surface.

I agree it will also stop algae forming  that will eat into the paint 

 

[P4dstar]

Update I have said I cant provide  the information they have asked they said that's fine we will try a different company.

Thanks for quoting. Never mind to be honest when they asked I thought this job will be a nightmare. 

Let's be honest she won't find someone in their right mind willing to do that anyways mate.

I had one last year that wanted me to cover any scratches. I just explained to her how the WFP system works. I then told her honestly that we are fully insured but the insurance company won't accept liability for scratches unless we've done something wrong. Thats because it's highly unlikely that the WFP system would scratch the window.

The lads have given a good amount of examples as to why the WFP is better for her windows. I don't know if anyone mentioned that the cleaning fluid for trad may be bad for the windows also but that popped into my head. I think you did the right thing walking away. Had I got here before you'd walked I would have suggested you politely explain that you can't guarantee that as there's no way to prove it either way, mention that anyone telling her they can is lying, then leave it with her to mull over.

 

[Yogi1872]

https://chameleon-decorators.co.uk/blog/risks-of-cleaning-wooden-windows-using-wfp-system/

Company who makes wooden frame windows says its harmfull. You don't really find things positive about wfp from the people who make and sell wooden frame windows.  I looked into it too and decided the wooden ones on my round will still be done trad.  At the end of the day I haven't got a clue if it's good or bad , but it would be silly to argue with the people who make the things would it not?. They should have a better knowledge than most about upkeep of them.  It's someone's property which they have invested money into.  I wouldn't like someone using something on my house that the makers of it advised against it but they use it anyway as they know best.  Unless your prepared to pay for any damage that happens from it either do it trad or not at all. 

 

[Chris34]

https://chameleon-decorators.co.uk/blog/risks-of-cleaning-wooden-windows-using-wfp-system/

Company who makes wooden frame windows says its harmfull. You don't really find things positive about wfp from the people who make and sell wooden frame windows.  I looked into it too and decided the wooden ones on my round will still be done trad.  At the end of the day I haven't got a clue if it's good or bad , but it would be silly to argue with the people who make the things would it not?. They should have a better knowledge than most about upkeep of them.  It's someone's property which they have invested money into.  I wouldn't like someone using something on my house that the makers of it advised against it but they use it anyway as they know best.  Unless your prepared to pay for any damage that happens from it either do it trad or not at all. 

That guide is useful but it doesn't say anywhere that the water damages the wood.  They are concerned that the brush will damage the protective layer [paint, varish] that is protecting the wood.  So the correct answer would be the water will not damage the wood so long as the wood is regularly maintained.  The moment there is a break in the paint, the wood is no longer protected and any water going near it will damage it.  So every time it rains it will damage it.  Any water will damage it.

It's useful for us all to know this so we can tell the customers how it is.  It's not the cleaning method, it's whether they themselves decide to maintain their wooden frames regularly like they should do.  If they don't then it's not our responsibility for any damage.

 

[Chris34]

And just to add, my brush will not remove paint, it has a hard enough time removing algae let alone paint which is supposed to be a bit more withstanding than a bit of algae.

 

[Pjj]

And just to add, my brush will not remove paint, it has a hard enough time removing algae let alone paint which is supposed to be a bit more withstanding than a bit of algae.

It is easy to chip the paint off with the stock of the brush if not careful especially on frames that have a thick build up of paint , done that a few times 

 

[Yogi1872]

That guide is useful but it doesn't say anywhere that the water damages the wood.  They are concerned that the brush will damage the protective layer [paint, varish] that is protecting the wood.  So the correct answer would be the water will not damage the wood so long as the wood is regularly maintained.  The moment there is a break in the paint, the wood is no longer protected and any water going near it will damage it.  So every time it rains it will damage it.  Any water will damage it.

It's useful for us all to know this so we can tell the customers how it is.  It's not the cleaning method, it's whether they themselves decide to maintain their wooden frames regularly like they should do.  If they don't then it's not our responsibility for any damage.

I don't know enough about it so the few wooden ones I do then I use a ladder.  The question would be would your insurance pay out if damage is caused with the wfp.  If damage was done and it cost alot then insuramce didn't pay out then I'm pretty sure the others in the street would find out about you causing damage and not repairing it.  That's probably the main reason I have kept wooden ones the same.  It might be no fault of your own but it would put alarm bells in other customers heads that damage has been done and you didn't fix it for them.  If roles were reversed we would be thinking the same. If getting the ladder off the odd occasion for wooden ones gives them reassurance then it's not to much of a big deal.  Ladders are perfectly safe, it's the people using them that make them unsafe. If the human race could be trusted then the stabilisers they have attached now wouldn't have been needed as people would have used them correctly.  

 

[Martyn]

I've been doing WFP for twenty years and it's never been an issue.

 

[Chris34]

I don't know enough about it so the few wooden ones I do then I use a ladder.  The question would be would your insurance pay out if damage is caused with the wfp.  If damage was done and it cost alot then insuramce didn't pay out then I'm pretty sure the others in the street would find out about you causing damage and not repairing it.  That's probably the main reason I have kept wooden ones the same.  It might be no fault of your own but it would put alarm bells in other customers heads that damage has been done and you didn't fix it for them.  If roles were reversed we would be thinking the same. If getting the ladder off the odd occasion for wooden ones gives them reassurance then it's not to much of a big deal.  Ladders are perfectly safe, it's the people using them that make them unsafe. If the human race could be trusted then the stabilisers they have attached now wouldn't have been needed as people would have used them correctly.  

It's your choice but I won't be losing sleep over it, certainly won't be going up any ladders.  In my eyes it's their fault, I've just been asked to clean the windows and frames, not maintain them.  

 

[Yogi1872]

It's your choice but I won't be losing sleep over it, certainly won't be going up any ladders.  In my eyes it's their fault, I've just been asked to clean the windows and frames, not maintain them.  

What's the hassle with going up ladders though if it puts there mind at ease?.  Some on here talk as if people should feel privileged that they clean there windows.  We all know how hard it is to get work so coming and going a bit with the customers we do have should  a given.  Let's just say you loose that customer and the next person she gets then doesn't take some of your other customers in the street ?.  Don't think for a second every customer is happy with the job you do as most people will tolerate it even if not happy because its only you they see in the street etc.  Loosing 1 customer could end in loosing more. 

Think back to when you first started out and how you treated the customer.  Most would do anything just to keep them happy as loosing them when they didn't have alot would worry them.  Although I wouldn't go back to that where you basically done anything they said to keep them happy.  I do think there needs to be a middle ground. 

 

[spruce]

What's the hassle with going up ladders though if it puts there mind at ease?.  Some on here talk as if people should feel privileged that they clean there windows.  We all know how hard it is to get work so coming and going a bit with the customers we do have should  a given.  Let's just say you loose that customer and the next person she gets then doesn't take some of your other customers in the street ?.  Don't think for a second every customer is happy with the job you do as most people will tolerate it even if not happy because its only you they see in the street etc.  Loosing 1 customer could end in loosing more. 

Think back to when you first started out and how you treated the customer.  Most would do anything just to keep them happy as loosing them when they didn't have alot would worry them.  Although I wouldn't go back to that where you basically done anything they said to keep them happy.  I do think there needs to be a middle ground. 

I hear what you say, but as far as I'm concerned, I'm not going to risk my life just to clean someone's windows traditionally. I'm not being overly dramatic, but I talk because I fell off my ladder from a first floor Victorian house. I'm not going to put myself in that position again.

I also know that when you start cleaning one house traditionally you can set a precedent with other neighbours and open a can of worms for yourself. In the early days of wfp, I walked way from a customer who insisted I clean his windows properly off ladders. I asked how he would feel if I fell off my ladders while working in his property. He told me that was not his problem. So actually, he was telling me he didn't care about my life. No way would I work for someone like that.

We had a windie working a round about 10 miles from us. He once told us that his customers said they wanted their windows cleaned traditionally; not with the pole. He fell from his ladders onto concrete and will spend the rest of his life in a wheel chair with care. Guess what? his customer who told him he wanted them cleaned traditionally then employed a cleaner using the pole. He didn't care either. Sorry, but as far as I'm concerned, I'm solely responsible for my life.

However, I'm not suggesting you don't offer a traditional service. That's your decision and I won't judge you for making it.

 

[Davy G]

I hear what you say, but as far as I'm concerned, I'm not going to risk my life just to clean someone's windows traditionally. I'm not being overly dramatic, but I talk because I fell off my ladder from a first floor Victorian house. I'm not going to put myself in that position again.

I also know that when you start cleaning one house traditionally you can set a precedent with other neighbours and open a can of worms for yourself. In the early days of wfp, I walked way from a customer who insisted I clean his windows properly off ladders. I asked how he would feel if I fell off my ladders while working in his property. He told me that was not his problem. So actually, he was telling me he didn't care about my life. No way would I work for someone like that.

We had a windie working a round about 10 miles from us. He once told us that his customers said they wanted their windows cleaned traditionally; not with the pole. He fell from his ladders onto concrete and will spend the rest of his life in a wheel chair with care. Guess what? his customer who told him he wanted them cleaned traditionally then employed a cleaner using the pole. He didn't care either. Sorry, but as far as I'm concerned, I'm solely responsible for my life.

However, I'm not suggesting you don't offer a traditional service. That's your decision and I won't judge you for making it.

Exactly this. ^

 

[Chris34]

What's the hassle with going up ladders though if it puts there mind at ease?.  Some on here talk as if people should feel privileged that they clean there windows.  We all know how hard it is to get work so coming and going a bit with the customers we do have should  a given.  Let's just say you loose that customer and the next person she gets then doesn't take some of your other customers in the street ?.  Don't think for a second every customer is happy with the job you do as most people will tolerate it even if not happy because its only you they see in the street etc.  Loosing 1 customer could end in loosing more. 

Think back to when you first started out and how you treated the customer.  Most would do anything just to keep them happy as loosing them when they didn't have alot would worry them.  Although I wouldn't go back to that where you basically done anything they said to keep them happy.  I do think there needs to be a middle ground. 

What Spruce said, it's not worth the risk.  I've heard of too many people falling off ladders.  The way I see it, up and down those ladders, day in, day out, just takes one mistake and you can be crippled.  Everyone makes mistakes, I bet everyone who has used a ladder has fallen off one at some point, it's just luck whether you hurt yourself or not.

I do agree with you about looking after the customer though... but I come first.  Ladders are not for me.

 

[Yogi1872]

I've heard of people falling from ladders too but every single time the person was to blame and not the ladders. I've never come off a ladder in about 20 years of going up one.  Know plenty who have but aslong as you don't do daft things on them there fine.

 

[Cleanco]

If you can’t use a ladder with the confidence that you are safe then you shouldn’t. They are only as safe as the person using them. We use ladders on a regular basis and have the valid insurance to do so. If they where as bad as some claim then you wouldn’t be able to get insurance as the regs are so tight these days. Health and safety is no joke but these posts sure make me chuckle to myself. Call the ladder police?

 

[spruce]

I've heard of people falling from ladders too but every single time the person was to blame and not the ladders. I've never come off a ladder in about 20 years of going up one.  Know plenty who have but aslong as you don't do daft things on them there fine.

You are correct. But no matter what, each of us makes mistakes and my mistake was at first floor level. I wasn't doing anything daft on mine. Cleaning windows isn't the most mentally stimulating job and I must have been thinking of other things. I stepped off my ladders thinking I was on the ground. I was lucky and got away with minor injuries and bruising. I hurt for weeks.

I class myself with some intelligence, so it's not as though I'm an idiot. It's just something that can happen and does happen. Accidents off ladders became such a concern that the Health & Safety Executive started to 'rule' regarding their use. That's a fact.

If you are still using ladders then that's up to you and the risks you are prepared to accept as part of the job. I truly hope you will remain accident free throughout your working life. I learnt my lesson. I still use ladders occasionally, but it's not to clean windows. If we have to clean a window at height with a squeegee and applicator, we do it from the ground.

 

[spruce]

If you can’t use a ladder with the confidence that you are safe then you shouldn’t. They are only as safe as the person using them. We use ladders on a regular basis and have the valid insurance to do so. If they where as bad as some claim then you wouldn’t be able to get insurance as the regs are so tight these days. Health and safety is no joke but these posts sure make me chuckle to myself. Call the ladder police?

I'm not saying you should not use ladders. It's a personal choice.

My choice is not to use them to clean windows. When I fell I was 54. I'm now 70 and for me it's even more reason to have my feet planted firmly on the ground. When you get old, its amazing how often we can trip over fresh air. ? If a customer insists I clean them traditionally, I will walk away from the job. But that's my decision and I'm not imposing my decision on anyone else. Each of us has to make their own decisions and take responsibility for their own choices.

That guy who fell from his ladders was taking a risk and it went badly. He was cleaning a 4 bedroom detached house for £6. Was the job worth £6? To someone starving and being able to buy a loaf of bread then maybe, but to end up paralysed for life, not in my books.

Another windie locally was asked to quote to clean his customer's fascias and gutters. He was told his price was too high. The customer decided to clean them himself off ladders. He fell and is now in a wheelchair.

All these examples do for me is to make my resolve stronger to not offer a ladder cleaning service.

 

[ks789]

I've heard of people falling from ladders too but every single time the person was to blame and not the ladders. I've never come off a ladder in about 20 years of going up one.  Know plenty who have but aslong as you don't do daft things on them there fine.

I had a bad one about 20 years ago. Id never had so much as a near miss previous to that. In my view I'd done nothing wrong or different. Proper angle etc, but the bottom of the ladder just pulled away as if someone had pulled it back really fast. Ended up in hospital for a week, had to have a permanent steel implant in my wrist, concussed myself too but lucky have a thick skull. It was the slimy mossy damp patio, and I didnt go up a ladder for years after. I do for a few now, but very careful/wary of the surface etc. Also Im planning on dropping even those few that require ladder. just dont need it anymore. Oh yes, in hospital I remember one of the doctors saying that window cleaners were the highest proportion of deaths ( because mostly still all ladders then) I reckon the water fed pole has saved 1000s of lives, no kidding.

 

[JEM]

I've recently got a new customer which is an old farm house with a couple of annex buildings they rent out for short stay

The frames on the farm house are all wooden and badly rotting as most of the pain has flaked off, the windows are the kind of windows that have frames inside the windows so small panes (i must find the right word for them) when i went to quote the job they had a  couple places where they have climbing plants up the walls and one of the windows was half covered, so i said would need pruning before i came back to do the job, when i turned up the following week the window was still half covered and he pointed out he has so much to do that it's a job that wasn't important so i did what part of the window i could see!

I've been back a couple times and the ivy/plant is still over that window! So not sure if i should point out the flaky frames I'm sure he must know, he might think I'm nagging!

Should i mention it next time because no matter how careful I am bits of paint does come off when I'm cleaning the windows/frames

 

[Iron Giant]

I had a bad one about 20 years ago. Id never had so much as a near miss previous to that. In my view I'd done nothing wrong or different. Proper angle etc, but the bottom of the ladder just pulled away as if someone had pulled it back really fast. Ended up in hospital for a week, had to have a permanent steel implant in my wrist, concussed myself too but lucky have a thick skull. It was the slimy mossy damp patio, and I didnt go up a ladder for years after. I do for a few now, but very careful/wary of the surface etc. Also Im planning on dropping even those few that require ladder. just dont need it anymore. Oh yes, in hospital I remember one of the doctors saying that window cleaners were the highest proportion of deaths ( because mostly still all ladders then) I reckon the water fed pole has saved 1000s of lives, no kidding.

You were lucky, a similar thing happened to me over 20 years ago end result for me from a height of 6ft was I snapped my spine in two places crushed one of my vertebrae by 70% and broke my wrist I came extremely close to spending the rest of my life in a wheelchair