Leisure battery

[Aqua-pure Portadown]

Spruce, I have read somewhere that if you are doing a lot of stop start shortish journeys (maybe btwn 5 and 10 miles per day) like a lot of us do, fitting a split charge relay would not generate enough regular power to keep the leisure battery fully topped up. Would you happen to know if there is truth in this claim. i.e is it worth doing ?

Jack I have a split relay fitted and only do short journeys and I have never had to charge the battery in the 2 years it's been fitted (110 amp)

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[spruce]

Halfords smart charger's have always served me well , I recently bought a Halfords 70ah battery and this past week I worked 5 days without the need to charge when I finished on Friday it was showing 12.3v I don't have a split relay as I use a Pump Box .

You may find this of interest @Iron Giant

#36 Charging a leisure battery - The Camping and Caravanning Club

 

[spruce]

I'm not knocking anyone's experience, but sometimes the figures just don't add up.

Some windies have reported that they have run their pumps off the van's starter battery for years without having a flat battery. Others have said the same with their leisure battery only being charged with a split charge relay.

We have tried running off the battery on 2 vans and have found the starter battery was flat in 4 days with 10 minutes drive to work and back.

My son in law did a lot more private mileage but had to recharge his leisure battery every 3 weeks or so. On a couple of occasions he couldn't work as his leisure battery was flat due to his forgetting to recharge it.

Numax advised me once that leisure batteries should never be charged at an amph rate of more than 10% of the battery's capacity. So a 110 amph leisure battery shouldn't be charged higher than 11 amps.

If you followed the golden rule of 50% charge for battery longevity then the theory says that your 110 amp leisure battery will need to be charged for 5.5 hours for it to be fully charged. As the battery becomes more fully charged the rate of absorption of charge tailors off which lengthens the time it takes to fully charge the battery.

I'm working for 8 hours and my pump is working for 5 hours that day. My pump draws around 4.5 amps on the flow I normally like to use. So this day I have used 22.5 amps from my fully charged 110 amp leisure battery. So at the end of the day I've got 87.5 amps left in the battery. At 10 amps I would need to drive for 2.25 hours for my battery to be fully charged.

My experience with 2 pumps running is that my van's alternator settles down to a charge rate of 7 to 8 amps on my way home. At 7 amps I would have to drive 3 hours to recharge the battery.

If my journey was only 1/2 an hour and 1/2 an hour back to work the next day my alternator would have to charge my battery at 22.5 amps to replenish the current used on the first day.

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[VWC]

Forgive me for hijacking this thread again but since I am that level of cautious when electrics are involved I've found a bloke who can fit everything for me. The battery I have is a 12v-110Ah Lucas LX31MF. Does anyone have a link to where I can order the correct kit for connecting this to my car battery?

 

[spruce]

Forgive me for hijacking this thread again but since I am that level of cautious when electrics are involved I've found a bloke who can fit everything for me. The battery I have is a 12v-110Ah Lucas LX31MF. Does anyone have a link to where I can order the correct kit for connecting this to my car battery?

There's a link for one heavy duty unit I already included in a reply on this very thread. It would be one I would go for.

5mtr Voltage Sensing Split Charge Relay Kit Leisure Battery Charger - Easy Fit | eBay

Why I like these is that they are bi-directional. These means that if you put a charger onto your leisure battery overnight, the vehicles starter battery will also be topped up automatically. I can also isolate the split relay from operating as I have fitted an on/off switch on the earth cable of the relay.

Here's a cheaper one.

CAMPER VAN SELF SWITCHING VOLTAGE SENSING SPLIT CHARGE RELAY-12V, 30 AMP, 6m Kit | eBay

You need to ensure what length of cable you need from your vehicle battery to your leisure is before ordering. You can use a length of string to follow the line your cabling If you are looking at the first kit with made up cables then I suggest you add another meter to the cable length as the last meter will consist of short bits.

If your van is one of the latest Euro models with smart alternators and regenerative charging then these relays will not work. You will need a battery to battery charger and the price will make your eyes water.

 

[Iron Giant]

You may find this of interest @Iron Giant
#36 Charging a leisure battery - The Camping and Caravanning Club

Just seen this Spruce thank you , My battery is currently reading at 12.3 so would it be best to not let it drop below this and charge asap once this reading is reached . Thanks

 

[spruce]

Just seen this Spruce thank you , My battery is currently reading at 12.3 so would it be best to not let it drop below this and charge asap once this reading is reached . Thanks

Definitely.

12.3v means the battery is between 25% and 50% charged. If the battery is left in that state of discharge for any length of time the plates start to sulphate from which there is no cure. (I say no cure but in some cases a higher charge voltage might work to de-sulphate the plates but it isn't guaranteed. Sometimes I believe its just another battery charger sales gimmick where minimal benefits are over hyped.)

The experts suggest that leisure batteries work best if they stay within the 75% to fully charged region. Whilst that may not always be possible, it does mean that auxiliary charging of a leisure battery regularly is important.

Battery charging isn't a black and white case. Its very difficult for any person offering advise to cover all the proverbial bases. So you give advice on the extreme situation. Son in law was a typical example of that. He had a Numax 85 amph battery on a split charge relay on his van when he worked along with us. I lost count of the times when he had to finish early as his battery was flat and wouldn't drive the pump as he forgot to charge it the night before. That battery was still doing a day's work when he left us to do other things after 4 years. He used it for camping this last year before he sold the van.

But Numax emailed me a couple of years back that as an average battery only lasted 6 months in the window cleaning environment they don't give a warranty on batteries used in our industry. My experience is that Numax is a very good quality battery (we have/had 3 of them).

There are cheaper poor quality units out there (Lion being one of them in my experience and the experience of our local motor factors who refuses to sell them.) They are labeled Deep Cycle which suggests they can be 'drained' but they need recharging asap after this. Sometimes the manufacturers list the number of deep cycles their battery will tolerate. Its not the same as filling a jug with water and emptying it 200 times for example.This doesn't mean that a battery will do those discharge cycles before it fails. With a battery each deep cycle takes a fraction out of the battery. So at 150 deep discharge cycles the battery may not have sufficient capacity left for a full day's work.

I'm fortunate as it takes just a few moments to plug my van in as it sits on the driveway. I usually plug the charger in every night in winter and every second night in summer. With a 2 man setup, we use more battery power a day than a single operator would.

We clean a school once a year in summer where both pumps run virtually all the time for 3 to 4 days. The battery gets charged every night then.

This data sheet is also useful

#33 A guide to leisure batteries - The Camping and Caravanning Club

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[Elliot]

Very interesting thread . I use a leisure battery and charge it after every use . I don't use an intelligent charger as I don't have one . i sometimes forget it is charging and leave it on well after it is charged . My question is . Does this damage the battery . Also what benefits are there in using an intelligent charger . Does it turn off when fully charged .

 

[Poles Apart]

Why dont you fit a split relay from you van battery to leisure battery, so as you drive around the van battery charges the leisure battery, i have one fitted and never take my leisure battery out to charge. I think you will find most windies have split relay fitted, To my recollection to have my fitted was £50 including the relay, any good auto electrician can do it, As for the leisure battery, they all have to meet certain eu regs, Best place to get one would be a independent car parts supply shop, that way any probs you can just take it back. You can probably find cheaper ones on ebay, but problem with that is if you get problems its hassle to send back, and all leisure batteries will come with minimum one year guarantee some with 2 or 3, and if you buy from auto car parts shop, they will probably have some business cards off auto electricians. Hope that helps.

Yes but if you are only doing short journeys does it charge?

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[spruce]

Very interesting thread . I use a leisure battery and charge it after every use . I don't use an intelligent charger as I don't have one . i sometimes forget it is charging and leave it on well after it is charged . My question is . Does this damage the battery . Also what benefits are there in using an intelligent charger . Does it turn off when fully charged .

A leisure battery charger is designed to put that extra into the battery that an ordinary starter battery charger doesn't.

Once the battery is fully charged an intelligent leisure battery charger will go into a maintenance mode and monitor the battery, topping up the charge as and when needed. So they can be left on for months.

We always had issues with leisure batteries when we first started wfp. I had a trailer and the battery was mounted on the trailers drawbar and open to the elements. I charged it every night with a car charger. I replaced the battery each year.

When I went van mounted I bought a new battery and mounted it inside the van. At the same time I ordered an intelligent battery charger.. That charger is 8 years old now and the only thing I've replaced is the cooling fan.

Numax Leisure Battery Charger 12V 10A - Battery Chargers - Numax Battery Chargers

An ordinary car charger just needs to get the starter battery up to the point it will start the engine. As a starter motor draws a high current for a fraction of time, the engine doesn't need much running to replace that. The vehicle alternator will provide all the power needed to run everything inside the vehicle with the engine running, so the starter battery doesn't do much work after that short power surge.

A vehicle's alternator isn't a good battery charger and you need something that will completely recharge your leisure battery. Here are some interesting points

Why do I need a leisure battery charger?

I mentioned in an earlier post on this thread that some of the claims made by windies of never having to recharge their leisure batteries with using a split charge relay don't seem to add up.

There's an interesting point made in this article. " ........... systems are fine and do give some charge to the leisure battery, but do you know that it has been estimated that to fully recharge a typical 85 Amp Hour battery from a discharged condition would take a road journey of some 750 miles.The fuel cost alone would probably pay for 2 new fully charged batteries!"

This statement tallies with my own experience. It took me over 250 miles and 5 hours driving to fully charge my 110 amp leisure battery that was between 75% and fully charged at the beginning of the journey. Van = Citroen Relay.

Another article of interest.

UKCampsite.co.uk: Leisure Battery Care and Charging

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[Elliot]

Thanks for that in depth reply . I will buy an intelligent charger this week . Good timing as I have just bought a new battery from Halfords 115ah . It a cost of £95 . Used it for the first time yesterday . My last one lasted 2 years 3 months . And towards the end was dying after 5 hours working . I was using a cheap charger and leaving it on charge way too long sometimes . So a new charger could make it last longer . But saying that 27 months at a cost of £95 ain't too bad . Thanks again for the advice spruce . Have a good new year .

 

[spruce]

Thanks for that in depth reply . I will buy an intelligent charger this week . Good timing as I have just bought a new battery from Halfords 115ah . It a cost of £95 . Used it for the first time yesterday . My last one lasted 2 years 3 months . And towards the end was dying after 5 hours working . I was using a cheap charger and leaving it on charge way too long sometimes . So a new charger could make it last longer . But saying that 27 months at a cost of £95 ain't too bad . Thanks again for the advice spruce . Have a good new year .

When buying a charger, you must make sure that it will be OK to leave the leisure battery connected to it long term. The CTEC chargers have a good name.

Not sure about the ones Halfords sell. They recommend the Halford Smart Charger Plus.

Halfords Smart Battery Charger Plus - Vehicles up to 2.5L

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[Another Clean Window]

Spruce, I have read somewhere that if you are doing a lot of stop start shortish journeys (maybe btwn 5 and 10 miles per day) like a lot of us do, fitting a split charge relay would not generate enough regular power to keep the leisure battery fully topped up. Would you happen to know if there is truth in this claim. i.e is it worth doing ?

I don't have any problems with mine, vivaro 1.9 diesel van so the battery has a job to get that fired up but it still manages to keep itself charged and top up my leisure battery with a split relay, not had a problem yet touch wood

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[Den]

After a bit of research I opted for the charger below, the caravanning community seemed to recommend this smart charger got to say I it a few times a week and very happy with it seem well made also.

6V/12v 4A Electronic Smart Car Battery Fast Trickle Charger WET AGM ACID Maypole

 

[jason1965]

Yes but if you are only doing short journeys does it charge?
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Yes its charges and bere in mind as well if our not working but still use your van that will charge to, i have had my split relay fitted 2 years now and it has never gone flat.

 

[Iron Giant]

I use the Halfords Charger and it has served me well so far although I doubt it will last 8 years as my last Halfords charger lasted 4 years .

 

[Elliot]

Your charger only lasted 4 years .? How long did your battery last ?

 

[Iron Giant]

My Last Halfords battery lasted just under 2 years but I used to run it almost flat the vast majority of the time .

 

[spruce]

Yes its charges and bere in mind as well if our not working but still use your van that will charge to, i have had my split relay fitted 2 years now and it has never gone flat.

If your van has been standing it would be of interest to take a voltage reading across the terminals of your leisure battery with a multimeter to see what level of charge your leisure battery has.

I think our problem is that my van really gets used for private use. I have a car for that.

One other thing is that I only consider my own personal van usage as that's all I have to go on. Our furthest customer is 10 miles away and our closest is the cul de sac we live in. Our roads are pretty clear of traffic so on average our first customers are 5 miles or 10 minutes drive away. That's never going to recharge our batteries unless it took me a few hours to drive that distance.

Some cleaners in the south travel long distances to their jobs. There was one I met who lives in the Bournemouth area and sends a van into east London. A leisure battery will also be charged at the same rate when the van's engine is idling in traffic/traffic jams as it will be traveling along a clear motorway. I doubt he will have an issue with charging his battery.

We tried to run a pump off my son's Peugeot partner van's starter battery on 3 separate occasions. It was flat in 4 days. Yet a windie in the south of England had been doing this for several years with the same van.

As a leisure battery is discharged it will accept a faster charging rate. The fuller it gets to fully charged the low the charge it will accept. I remember on my London trip that the first hour the battery was charging at 4 to 5 amps, then after that it dropped off to about 1.5 amps in the next hour. I took 3 additional hours before the battery was accepting a charge of .5 (half) an amp.

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[VWC]

I'll admit that much of this information has my head spinning but if I summarise:

1. Charging off the car battery requires longer journeys to achieve a full charge.

2. More of a question. A so called intelligent charger will charge while the van is not running without draining the battery or it needs to charge from the house?

I saw something about some vans depending on make, model and year, allow intelligent chargers and some don't. My van is a 2010 VW Caddy.

 

[spruce]

I'll admit that much of this information has my head spinning but if I summarise:
1. Charging off the car battery requires longer journeys to achieve a full charge.

2. More of a question. A so called intelligent charger will charge while the van is not running without draining the battery or it needs to charge from the house?

I saw something about some vans depending on make, model and year, allow intelligent chargers and some don't. My van is a 2010 VW Caddy.

1. Yes. The intelligent charger charges the battery much quicker.

2. An intelligent charger is from a 230v supply. Sterling have an expensive range of relays with lots of electronic components that turn your alternator feed into a much more efficient battery charger. They are fitted to ambulances which have a lot of equipment on board that need power. Sterling also like Trojan Traction batteries that are the creme of batteries, but far too heavy and expensive for window cleaning applications IMHO.

3. Your van is fine for a split charge relay or Voltage sensing relay. We used to refer to a vsr as an intelligent relay before we knew better. It was intelligent as it gave the alternator priority to charge the starter battery and then the leisure battery when the starter battery was charged enough.

I can understand why the confusion.

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