The Messer Antenna

[Oli]

I always tell my new custy's - that it can take a 2-3 cleans to achieve an optimal finish - I also say if you are ever less than delighted with anything - missed a window/finish not 100%? Just text/call and we'll return immediately and put it right.

I do exactly the same. Another reason to have your work as local as possible, I wouldn’t want to be travelling 30 miles to reclean a window with a couple of vent trickles!

 

[Master Jedi Alejandro]

Just thought I'd add in my two pence here. I've (very) recently started insisting that one off jobs or first cleans over a certain value are paid at the job by cash or card or pre-clean if online. Folk than genuinely want there windows cleaned have paid pre-clean with no issues. Granted, it has been lower amounts, around £30, not higher amounts, but so far it has worked. Wondering if perhaps for larger jobs I insist on a downpayment. Has anyone found this to be of advantage or has it put off otherwise decent customers?

 

[adamangler]

A 60 mile round trip for 1 domestic window clean? 

Are you mad. That's Gotta be best part of a tenner of diesel lol

 

[Tango]

recording someone without them knowing is illegal and classed as entrapment  ,this would result in any court case being null and void , 

Entrapment is encouraging someone to commit a crime in order to catch and punish them. DeLorean or whatever his name was, was the first person to use this in a legal defence when he was tried for the crimes he was accused of.

Secondly, recording a conversation with someone without their consent is not illegal (that's why many call centres will tell you they're recording it but never ask for your explicit consent). It's the act of playing that recording to a 3rd party without consent of the parties in the recording that is unlawful unless used by the police for an investigation or a judge orders them to be used in a hearing (only a matter of time until those training purposes call centres quote are ruled unlawful).

There was an employment tribunal a few years ago where the employee had secret recordings of his employment. The tribunal decided against convention that they wanted to hear them -they were played and proved the case which the employee then won

I did quite a lot of research into the subject of recordings a few years ago as I was also taking an employer to a tribunal. Their solicitors did not attempt to strike out this evidence but merely requested written transcripts of them.

 

[Pjj]

Entrapment is encouraging someone to commit a crime in order to catch and punish them. DeLorean or whatever his name was, was the first person to use this in a legal defence when he was tried for the crimes he was accused of.

Secondly, recording a conversation with someone without their consent is not illegal (that's why many call centres will tell you they're recording it but never ask for your explicit consent). It's the act of playing that recording to a 3rd party without consent of the parties in the recording that is unlawful unless used by the police for an investigation or a judge orders them to be used in a hearing (only a matter of time until those training purposes call centres quote are ruled unlawful).

There was an employment tribunal a few years ago where the employee had secret recordings of his employment. The tribunal decided against convention that they wanted to hear them -they were played and proved the case which the employee then won

I did quite a lot of research into the subject of recordings a few years ago as I was also taking an employer to a tribunal. Their solicitors did not attempt to strike out this evidence but merely requested written transcripts of them.

According to our soliciters the recordings cannot be used in court , trust me we have been there and tried that one, if you record a conversation you have to inform the person before doing so otherwise it’s not allowed to be used as evidence , the police work in different  way they can do it secretly but even then they have come unstuck quite a few times according to our legal advice . You don’t have to have there consent to record the conversation but you do have to have those words on the recording in the beginning that you are recording the conversation and that it may be used to assist your grievance or complaint . Entrapment is also possible by getting someone to say something that later is used to try and convict them of a crime or other offence ,this is why the police caution someone before talking about any suspected offence with them ,if they don’t then again the evidence isn’t admissible in court , we have collectively got one of the best soliciters in the country dealing with this case and this is the advice we have been given , I would love to post on hear there correspondence in letters and emails about all this but have been told that any specific information posted on any social media would jeopardise  our case . 

 

[Tango]

we have collectively got one of the best soliciters in the country dealing with this case and this is the advice we have been given

Opinions vary from one law firm to another. A firm I used 9 years ago have completely different advice to yours about recordings.

With a completely different firm I had a case going to court last year -again through a firm that were supposed to be experts in their field. All common sense was ignored, I raised repeated concerns, they knew best, etc, etc.  Last year the case collapsed just as it had been listed for a pre trial hearing.

Solicitors will always be the best in someone's reputation and yet they're still able to screw things up and be completely wrong. In my case I literally had the head of the department who was also a partner of the legal firm representing me. He assured me repeatedly they knew what they were doing (so did the barrister at a face to face conference in London). Had the prat taken notice of my points he'd have won my less valuable case and actually got me some money but instead they knew best based on their expertise and lost it before it even got to court.

My advice to you is any solicitor with any real skill will progress a case quickly, efficiently and will have a set of teeth that actually bite. Any that faff about pretending to be experts and constantly reassuring you that they know their stuff (while taking forever to see minimal results) have an ego problem that affects their sense of reality.

 

[dazmond]

Rocked up to a semi and quoted the lady who requested the quote on facebook, gave me the story of the old cleaner was not going to get paid as they had not cleaned her windows properly.  I said to mrs when I got home,  that woman ain't gonna pay me and will mess me about.  So, being hungry for new work I went and did it anyway.  Day after, text "don't want windows doing anymore, not cleaned properly so don't ask for payment".  I need to start to listening to my inner voice.  Second messer in a week cost me diesel and time.  I checked my work before I left certainly no issues at my end.  I think this industry is rife with customers who think nothing of robbing you.  Just venting.  I know its part of the course!  Have a great weekend fellow doods.

learn from this...never take on a job thats a 60 mile trip away from home or your other work,if you insist on advertising on facebook then only take on local jobs....ive never not been paid for a first clean in 26 years of window cleaning....its not "rife" at all.....most people are decent and will pay you if you do a good job when you say you will....

insist on being paid there and then on a first clean if your that worried about not being paid...personally i dont do this,once i have their contact details and ive done the job they usually pay me by BACS within a couple of days...some insist on paying me by cash or card first time on day of clean and thats fine too....

 

[Dino]

How much was this job ?

Tenner, 2 bed terrace.  Have a few in same area so made sense.

 

[Tango]

ive never not been paid for a first clean in 26 years of window cleaning....its not "rife" at all

But there is always s first time for everything.

I've got a shop outstanding for £30 which I was forced to leave an invoice for - no choice on that so there's an opportunity for me to get shafted on that first clean (and I see the lady every few days at my son's school -she deliberately avoids eye contact).

 

[Dino]

learn from this...never take on a job thats a 60 mile trip away from home or your other work,if you insist on advertising on facebook then only take on local jobs....ive never not been paid for a first clean in 26 years of window cleaning....its not "rife" at all.....most people are decent and will pay you if you do a good job when you say you will....

insist on being paid there and then on a first clean if your that worried about not being paid...personally i dont do this,once i have their contact details and ive done the job they usually pay me by BACS within a couple of days...some insist on paying me by cash or card first time on day of clean and thats fine too....

I have several jobs in the same area so it easily covered my diesel on this job and take a chance on it.  Most of my customers pay BACs with no issues.  But in my few months of start up I would say my experience of none payers to be very high, for variable reasons.  Its all very well offering to go back on a complaint and I have.   They wont allow it because they don't want you there to put it right, they just wanted a free clean. 

When I say its 'rife'.  Well, as a new cleaner running it like a business seriously I can tell you what I have experienced to date.   I can't and don't speak for everyone else, its subjective after all.   I don't just take it on the chin when someone won't pay me.  I do intend to go and speak to this lady next time I am in this area.  

My credit control after the first month is consistent I feel.  I chase payment after 7 working days.  Most of my 'real' customers are more than happy to be reminded.  I never collect, except on the day.  I live in the middle of nowhere so my work is all spread out across market towns so I have no choice but to suck up the mileage.  Pretty impossible to get compact work where I am, its saturated with sole traders and we are getting a lot of folk from the bigger cities driving into our areas doing cleans for £5 for 4/5 bed houses.  Seems there is a particular demographic who jump out of vans (4 people at time) and do a LOT of houses in a day and charge next to nothing, they are certainly run by a gang leader, imagine a car wash with WFP and that sums it up.  There is one group from Bradford doing this regularly, fair play to them if they can live off that kind of money.  They are well organised and they canvass my work all the time and a few others but hey that's competition hard though when you charge double and have to deal with none payers.  I didn't get into this game to be a millionaire I wanted to be my own boss and so far I love it.  Being caught out like this is just how it goes and I am sure it will happen a lot to me.  I think with the amount of messers I am gettin through I dare say I'll forget I had them on my books and take them on again in the future lol!

 

[Potta81]

About 10 years ago I’d been cleaning a house for around a year, always a bad payer, a sob story every time payment was due. I actually gave up on my last payment it was only £8, just a small 2 up 2 down front & back. Then around 2 years ago she came out while I did her neighbours thinking I’d have forgotten & asked us to do the windows. I said yeah if u pay me the £8 u owe me from 8 years ago,lol. She only wanted the front done apologised & gave me £20 & said keep the change. So I got £12 for a 5 min job. All good things come to those who wait & all that lol. I never did them again tho, once a messer always a messer

 

[spruce]

About 10 years ago I’d been cleaning a house for around a year, always a bad payer, a sob story every time payment was due. I actually gave up on my last payment it was only £8, just a small 2 up 2 down front & back. Then around 2 years ago she came out while I did her neighbours thinking I’d have forgotten & asked us to do the windows. I said yeah if u pay me the £8 u owe me from 8 years ago,lol. She only wanted the front done apologised & gave me £20 & said keep the change. So I got £12 for a 5 min job. All good things come to those who wait & all that lol. I never did them again tho, once a messer always a messer

Sooner or later you bump into them again unless they move totally out of the area.

Before the data protection act tightened info up the electoral roll was a good place to go searching. Yes, we probably had to wait until the last update was added in the October but we found a number using this method.

Neighbours were also a good source of info if used discretely. We also know many of the local posties and they can also be very helpful.

It very important to have the details of all your customers.

Whilst the new data protection regulations permit potential customers from disclosing their names, we won't take on a new customer who won't share that info with us for our records. (Its their right to protect their data but its also our right to withhold service on the same grounds.)  

 

[Potta81]

Sooner or later you bump into them again unless they move totally out of the area.

True yea, I have the odd one or 2 bad payers still but it’s mainly because they either don’t carry cash or they’re never in rather than just not wanting to pay me. My card reader has been a help tho since getting it. If anyone messes me about I never forget & when they’ve asked us to start cleaning again I just say we’re too busy, it’s just not worth the hassle.

 

[dazmond]

i decided 15 years ago to concentrate on picking up and condensing my work into an affluent semi rural/leafy suburbs  area and now i have over 300 jobs in a 5 mile area...i sold some local work to make room for this...its one of the best things ive done in window cleaning(as well as going wfp nearly 10 years ago now)......

try and build your round away from the sink/council estates and tough urban areas.....i know this is easier said than done for some of you but once you get a foothold in a nice,affluent area it can snowball over time if you do a good job and are reliable and trustworthy.....well worth the extra fuel/drive to get to your days work......less messers in general.....

 

[harunh]

At the end of the day there is messers in every type of business, the best thing about window cleaning is that u can keep the messers to a minimum by having your own strict guidelines to deter messers, its very simple.

Dont expect to pick up new customers and all of them to be good customers , this is all part of building a window cleaning business.