Viably employing extra staff.

[Minotaur clean]

So you and your colleague are in one van are cleaning a really long route and you're always running about 2 weeks late (that's without upselling extra work like guttering)

Every time a new customer comes out or calls etc it goes on to the route, there's always a spot. And customers appear to be a little bit happy that you're late rather than on time...

The route is every 2 months so being 2 weeks late doesn't equate to fully employ someone because that person will probably clean it all in around 4 weeks. Essentially speaking he'll be twiddling his thumbs for a month. It also wouldn't be as profitable because we're passing that area anyway therefore two vans will be going out and there'll be more overheads that aren't really required fair enough the work won't be 2 weeks late so that will bring in a little bit of extra money..

My question is how do you employ someone to start a round technically from scratch? Because those two weeks are really within the route we are covering already.

Do you just put out 100,000 leaflets etc employ someone before the calls start coming in? Guarantee his wage regardless and if he isn't cleaning I suppose he can be leafleting etc?

What is the best method I can imagine you'll probably break even on the first year won't you? Maybe even make a loss depending.

Obviously everybody knows Lee prior so when he wants to put a new van on the road a new round the question would be how does he do it I'm guessing it's quite an investment and You've got to be prepared to make a net loss potentially on the wages
And all the other running costs. We all know about the turnover spoken with for example prior however I have a feeling in the first year there is a potential loss or maybe breaking even and you'll do very well to make a small profit with today's competitive salary anyway plus VAT and everything else.


And you probably be subsidising it from the main vehicle ie me and my staff member, in the hope that in about 12 months it makes a profit I suppose like any other investment.

So I have a feeling it's as follows

Purchase vehicle and kit out £10,000
Employ someone full-time £30k
Marketing leafleting etc for one van £30k
First year £70,000 of investment If the staff member has nothing to do I suppose he needs to leaflet and door knock in between

First year bringing in £70,000 inc vat would mean you lose about £10,000
And then year two you're looking at probably making a profit obviously you have to put up with staff member potentially leaving that's always a possibility as well.

In other words it's quite a lot of hassle money and time

Am I somewhat on the right path or is there any other easy way to overcome what I'm trying to potentially accomplish?

You see totally different from building your own business with your own time because you're paying yourself so on days where you're less productive in the beginning you're not having to pay out a salary Which could potentially be more than what that person is actually bringing in sometimes
if that makes sense!

 

[Pjj]

I think what you have suggested is the quickest route to bankruptcy I have ever seen . ??

 

[Crystalalan]

Would employing someone on a zero hours contract be feasible?

 

[BrandonAntony]

I've been thinking about this too and my idea is maximise 2 man in 1 van, you should be able to do about 50% more work. Once you've done that, buy the 2nd van, kit it out and give the employee a full round for himself. Leave yourself that 50% for your round and slowly build that second vans round up, id do leaflets but a lot of people prefer canvassing.

 

[Minotaur clean]

It was quite a long post but thanks for the replys so far,
I've already done that part The problem is I'm used to the income that we're generating,

So yeah how do you get around what I'm trying to get around if that makes sense!?

Used to have two vans kicking about consolidated all in one, The profit t is much higher, But now that we're handling that entire route,

Yeah so I don't think it's going to be the fastest route to bankruptcy The reason why is there's a lot of excess funds generated from the main operation so to say,

Like I say I personally think you have to be able to absorb a loss at least on that second operation for the first year, You're not going to be able to be in positive cash flow given all the outlay I think that's somewhat correct just want to get further clarification!

 

[Minotaur clean]

I think what you have suggested is the quickest route to bankruptcy I have ever seen . ??

What's the best way, You've got two men in one van enough money to support someone else working full time You've got to invest a lot of money leavelets canvassing etc , is the mindset breaking even in year one probably realistic?

 

[Minotaur clean]

Would employing someone on a zero hours contract be feasible?

Yes but the problem is you won't be able to retain them because everyone needs to work full time, especially around London areas and these days anywhere in the UK as you know everything is expensive,
But for example if I gave some of the two days work a week that could be a start and then promise to build up more work that's probably a way to do it?

But I'll need someone serious and someone there for those 2 days because I'm going to be spending money in advertising,

And I may get last minute notice that this person is not coming in and therefore I'm in a worse position, So you probably need to guarantee the work for the person and if he's twiddling his thumbs he would just have to leave let himself and door knock and just pray to God You break even that week.

Well not necessarily pray to God because I suppose you have to be in the position to do this in the first place.

But yeah fairly tricky situation unless you're prepared to make a loss in the first year I think.

Looking forward to further clarification !

 

[Cghwindowcleaning]

The best way is to completely max out one van to its limit or over run by a few weeks in this time send out canvassers or buy work your 30k on leaflets is wasting money Lee Prior spends a lot more.30k spent on a canvassing company I would expect would get you an 8-10k a month round

 

[Minotaur clean]

The best way is to completely max out one van to its limit or over run by a few weeks in this time send out canvassers or buy work your 30k on leaflets is wasting money Lee Prior spends a lot more.30k spent on a canvassing company I would expect would get you an 8-10k a month round

Yes but there's no company out there anymore that's credible I don't think there ever was,

 

[Iron Giant]

In other words it's quite a lot of hassle money and time

If this is what you are thinking then the simple solution is don't expand and sell the work that you don't want because running 2 weeks behind constantly is money down the drain month after month which means potentially you are losing £1,000's per annum

 

[High-tower]

Buy the second van, put an employee in with the colleague, then you do the 2 extra days spending the rest of the time canvassing/leafleting until you’re full as well, buy van 3 split the work rinse and repeat…. In theory.

 

[Minotaur clean]

If this is what you are thinking then the simple solution is don't expand and sell the work that you don't want because running 2 weeks behind constantly is money down the drain month after month which means potentially you are losing £1,000's per annum

You're right you should not have that opinion If you want to progress,

 

[Minotaur clean]

Buy the second van, put an employee in with the colleague, then you do the 2 extra days spending the rest of the time canvassing/leafleting until you’re full as well, buy van 3 split the work rinse and repeat…. In theory.

Yes that could be the way to do it The only thing is the main setup is turning over too much for me to walk away from, And if I was to employ someone to cover me it would dramatically drop I have a feeling by 30%, It makes a big difference when I'm there quoting extra work guttering one-offs etc.. The parking issues that I overcome various factors that I'll be phone called all the time.

I'm in a predicament do I continue working like crazy I never came into business to work like this I always thought I'll be eventually somewhat having a easier lifestyle not a harder one but it is rewarding at the same time!

This is a good solution so the other option was I stay in the main van And just to break down the numbers after I pay myself the maximum dividend my colleague all the running costs there appears to be still an extra £4 or 5,000 pounds a month left over as net profit,

My theory was if I was to exit this van and do what you said I think that profit the extra profit would potentially go down to about 1,000 maybe 1,500 quite a difference my dividend etc will still get paid so it's not exactly a bad scenario but that is quite a wack to lose of extra profit.

If I continue working I could easily offset £2,000 of that profit so for example down to £2,000 £3,000 extra technically I can afford to have the second van out and not hinder myself at all even if he makes zero money I will still be in a positive cash flow.


Obviously if he breaks even I'm back up to £4-£5 after all costs my hope would be in about a year from now that net profit ends up becoming more like 7,000 maybe 8,000 after my wages etc. In which case if I step back from the main setup it will go back down to its original figure which is currently £5000 of extra surplus funds.

The goal would be to enjoy life a bit more have weekends going holiday a bit more often I mean going away once a year is something I have done but naturally because I have no cover it is very costly to think about doing it again just not possible.

But yeah that was my logic behind employing someone while I continue to work in the main setup and offset the extra income which is already there I think in that scenario it might actually work a bit better than the other way around. I was thinking about £30, 000 of capital to invest in canvassing leafleting online marketing etc.

But even if this chap has no work for 2 weeks I was going out knocking on doors and I know it works so in theory I can pay him for that even if he gets half of the work that I pay him for that will be a bad day It still isn't as bad because the main van is turning an income!

That was my thoughts based on the numbers let me know what people's thoughts are!

 

[High-tower]

Sounds like you’re are just going through the scenario I’m sure all of has at least thought through.
Window cleaning is a very lucrative business as a single operator, but it doesn’t scale up very well and the margins quickly shrink. Depending on how you run the numbers it might take 3-5 vans to be back where you were on your own.
No one will ever be as productive as yourself, either cleaning or canvassing & marketing.
You then have the perils of finding a reliable employee, often the ones worth employing go out and start up themselves.

 

[Minotaur clean]

Sounds like you’re are just going through the scenario I’m sure all of has at least thought through.
Window cleaning is a very lucrative business as a single operator, but it doesn’t scale up very well and the margins quickly shrink. Depending on how you run the numbers it might take 3-5 vans to be back where you were on your own.
No one will ever be as productive as yourself, either cleaning or canvassing & marketing.
You then have the perils of finding a reliable employee, often the ones worth employing go out and start up themselves.

Yes I totally agree The backstory is I done all the marketing canvassing God it was outrageous how much work I put in a lot of it was unpaid obviously you take the whole years earnings in consideration, anyhow I used to have two vans that's myself working how I wanted to having a relaxed lifestyle following my gym keeping in shape going on holidays going away deliberately gave myself only as much work as I needed and also done some good one-offs,

And I kind of essentially stepped back from the main round which I had which needed some help and I had independent person going out working one van full time it was fantastic because when I was on holiday obviously they'll be an income coming in.

I think this is probably the best position I was ever in time wise And it was decent money.

However when this chap decided to leave after about 3 years I had to take the whole round on myself And it was at that point when I realised how much more profitable it was when I was at every single job for various reasons slacking extra work etc added up to a fortune more than I could imagine like I say probably 30% extra turnover.

So now it's hard for me to kind of step back from that as I'm used to that sort of income.

If I did step back I could do the same scenario reverse just like the previous person said, But I wonder how companies such as Lee prior does it, because as he starts to expand he buys a van gets a staff member And literally start sending them out, I have a feeling because I remember years ago looking him up and he had five and six vans eventually 10 plus I think the amount of marketing involved is so big that in year one you have to make either a small loss on that new operation or break even if you make any profit at all even if it's 10% I think that's considered good.

I think that's probably what it's like because I could do all the canvassing and marketing myself and take on these initial cleans and try to sign them up but end of the day It's my time which will be unpaid that makes sense? If I was to guarantee someone's wage with a view to break even or make 10 or 20% profit in the first year I think that would be best case.

I suppose the way you got to think of it people purchase houses for say £100,000 to make a net guarantee then come after all costs 6% so what's that £550 a month , ok even if you're making £800 a month that's considered a high return in the property world.

A £30,000 investment and potentially have a worker cover the operation so break even for the first year is 100% return

In year two if you're making even £10,000 in that year as profit I mean you got your investment back and you're making the same amount of money as you are if you're investing £100,000 in a house.

Obviously the difference between the property and the business is you have to know the business really well and you have to know what to do obviously that's where we come into play !

You see the "big boys" they don't go out cleaning first cleans do door knocking and take on first cleans I literally think they are in negative cash flow in the first year If breaking even or making 10% that's an extra bonus but you got to look at the long term I think that's what it is,
And obviously the previous operations bring in just enough net profit to cover their own costs and subsidise this one
Overall probably 20% profit yes compared to when you're providing yourself the profit can be 40 50% 60% even on a smaller operation

So I think it's horses for courses doing the legwork yourself and not having to guarantee someone's wage and covering yourself from the main operation is one thing but if I'm going to lose 30% turnover I might as well do it the other way around that's what I think anyway.

Let me know if that all seems decent

 

[Pjj]

What's the best way, You've got two men in one van enough money to support someone else working full time You've got to invest a lot of money leavelets canvassing etc , is the mindset breaking even in year one probably realistic?

I worked on my own until I was running about a week behind all the time took on a worker and we were able to do everything on time , got a second van and one guy in it to cover add ons etc doing initially 2-3 days a week after about 6 months had enough work windows to fill it with two guys and just kept repeating that , I ended up canvassing weekends and evenings but after a while stopped canvassing and found around every 8 months to a year I had picked up enough extra work to fill another van with no input needed from me ,that was just referrals, walk ups and web site , never spent money advertising or leaflet drops knocking doors was the most productive way if you wanted rapid growth , there is still a shortage of good reliable cleaners ware I am but I know of 5 now that have been going less than 4 years and are actively turning work away as they have enough and have never advertised ,so it can be done .

 

[Minotaur clean]

I worked on my own until I was running about a week behind all the time took on a worker and we were able to do everything on time , got a second van and one guy in it to cover add ons etc doing initially 2-3 days a week after about 6 months had enough work windows to fill it with two guys and just kept repeating that , I ended up canvassing weekends and evenings but after a while stopped canvassing and found around every 8 months to a year I had picked up enough extra work to fill another van with no input needed from me ,that was just referrals, walk ups and web site , never spent money advertising or leaflet drops knocking doors was the most productive way if you wanted rapid growth , there is still a shortage of good reliable cleaners ware I am but I know of 5 now that have been going less than 4 years and are actively turning work away as they have enough and have never advertised ,so it can be done .

fair play to you, door knocking here also.
The trouble is getting someone to work part-time is quite difficult People usually want full-time work that is a way to start though,

So you're saying only provide for example 3 days a week with a view to increase?
Rather than expose myself to an annual salary?

If I struggle to do that what do you think about my idea which is guaranteeing his wage and he cleans two to three days a week and then door knocks the rest of the days and advertises leaflets etc? With a view to break even within the first year

 

[Pjj]

fair play to you, door knocking here also.
The trouble is getting someone to work part-time is quite difficult People usually want full-time work that is a way to start though,

So you're saying only provide for example 3 days a week with a view to increase?
Rather than expose myself to an annual salary?

If I struggle to do that what do you think about my idea which is guaranteeing his wage and he cleans two to three days a week and then door knocks the rest of the days and advertises leaflets etc? With a view to break even within the first year

Not everyone wants full time work , but yes as a starter 3 days leading to more I generally found especially in summer months it was full time work with lots of gfs cleans etc anyway. I would never offer a salary always pay a weekly wage or hourly wage that’s what we have always done , offer a bonus monthly if no complaints and certain targets are met this keeps staff motivated to work hard rather than slacking as it motivates them a salary offers no motive to work hard . Offering a guaranteed wage works for him but not you he could only clean one house in that time .

 

[Minotaur clean]

Not everyone wants full time work , but yes as a starter 3 days leading to more I generally found especially in summer months it was full time work with lots of gfs cleans etc anyway. I would never offer a salary always pay a weekly wage or hourly wage that’s what we have always done , offer a bonus monthly if no complaints and certain targets are met this keeps staff motivated to work hard rather than slacking as it motivates them a salary offers no motive to work hard . Offering a guaranteed wage works for him but not you he could only clean one house in that time .

Yeah that's all fair enough,

Two other questions
Your main round or should I say my main round however we both probably had this situation

Let's assume you're running 2 weeks late which is probably the target.
New customer calls which is in your area and you're literally driving by there however you're already 2 weeks late You will make more money if you take this customer on your actual route rather than pay another van and another person more expensive than go and clean it yourself.

Do you know what I mean? For example I had a ring in the other day and I thought about it I obviously put it on the main route which is the only route at the moment however I thought about this and I said to myself it's a job I wouldn't want to take on however I make more money when I take it as we are technically passing it lol.. obviously the target is to get some freedom but still I will have to challenge myself in the beginning to not actually clean that job that I could technically fit in!


When do you draw the line and how do you deal with the fact you know you could make more money if you drove by it yourself rather than employ someone else or incur those costs etc.

Also how generous should that bonus be I had that previous chap who was right as rain for 3 years And he didn't need a bonus.

Would you say a bonus which is 10% extra of his monthly salary gross Which works out to £250 is good?

 

[Pjj]

We don’t run late theses days unless the weather is bad .
if we pick up a new job in an area if we can we do it on the spot and just finish a bit later unless it’s a very big job .
Bonus is paid on the extra work they have done it’s done as a % of the job price .
wouldn’t want to comment about actual figures for you giving bonus as I have no idea of job prices or how you work out wages etc .

 

[Minotaur clean]

We don’t run late theses days unless the weather is bad .
if we pick up a new job in an area if we can we do it on the spot and just finish a bit later unless it’s a very big job .
Bonus is paid on the extra work they have done it’s done as a % of the job price .
wouldn’t want to comment about actual figures for you giving bonus as I have no idea of job prices or how you work out wages etc .

Yes but surely some of your vans may cross technically very close to each other but definitely some jobs close to you I guess you just leave it as it is and just carry on right?

understand, It's all about how much money is left in your pocket I suppose after everything and VAT , yeah I was just curious but to be fair I think I kind of answered my own question £250 extra a month on top of the way which is probably about £2,500 is decent definitely to keep people working.

The only time they might get sour is if they don't make the bonus!