Voltage drop when split relay connected to 13.3 down from.14.4

[Quickwindowclean]

To be honest best to pay someone who knows what they are doing. Have a look for motorhome mobile service people and send them an email asking if they can fit a suitable charging system to your van to recharge leisure battery. Also tell them what current you pull of the battery i.e. Pump, hose reel etc. Explain the problem and ask them for a solution. 

Batteries are capable of discharging very large currents that can cause fires so safest to get someone who knows what they are doing to install. 

Sorry can't remember back to beginning plus a few beers but I assume you can't get mains power so you could mains charge each night with ctek or similar? 

That's right mains power is a pain.. I can get it but its hassle especially every night as I need to now..

I agree dont wana mess with it specially when thicker cables are involved. But that said if I cant find someone I'll just have too so must stay in touch.

If you ain't too drunk did I make sense with the higher amps being an issue like if 100 amps going in via split relay when any more then 30 could be damaging ?

 

[Iron Giant]

1 day and that's it, if you ain't doing much travelling you will need to bench charge your battery every night I am a sole trader with a electric reel and my 105ah battery gets charged every night as it's depleted between by about 50% after a days work and I might only reel in less than 10x a day

@Quickwindowclean a scr isn't the sole answer to your issues if you have days where you aren't doing the mileage, you either started the demise of your battery in December or have in recent weeks accelerated it, 

If you have got yourself a new battery then via your controller I would monitor your battery voltage on a daily basis and make notes across the weeks as your travelling varies if it does quite a bit. 

 

[spruce]

I totally accept I think the battery may not be quite at capacity just an example yesterday we probably used 1x electric real 25 x along with mainly one pump working all over 6h and today only managed 3h work reeled in 12x and already the battery is toast..Not sure if that's about right for 110amps but considering the till recently it was lasting a week in putting 13.2 shows you the difference.

I'll definitely be replacing the battery I think that's a good shout I will be getting the split relay but meanwhile I just want to see if a thicker cable is going to input the correct voltage is it safe just to test it it or do I need to connect both the negative and the positives so as if I'm jump starting a vehicle so to speak or is 1 red enough?

You would connect the batteries together in the same way you would jump start another vehicle. So if your van was stationary that would be ok to try that.

You would follow the same procedure connecting up the jumper leads as you would another vehicle. I would use both red and black cables to be sure. 

The other point I haven't thought about is your leisure battery earth if it goes to the van's body. That needs to be good. 

An electric hose reel puts a high current demand on a battery albeit for a short duration. A new leisure battery might be able to tolerate it for a while but a worn out battery will just be sent to an early demise. Just because your old battery worked last week doesn't mean it will work this week.

There isn't the perfect battery solution for a window cleaner running an electric hose reel. Drawing 25 amps winding in the hose reel is more than a normal leisure battery is designed for. Using a starter battery is better for that higher power demand but not the best solution for the lower power draw of the water pump.

There is a combo battery design which is a middle of the road battery. It isn't a perfect leisure battery and neither is it a perfect starter battery. I would suggest you look at class B batteries that have a CCA rating. The caravan industry use these types of batteries for caravan owners who require the occasional high current demand of an electric motor mover. It's a compromise.

Numax, Lucas and Exide make these types of leisure batteries. And forget battery warranties, they don't apply to window cleaners as we are considered battery abusers.

.

 

[Quickwindowclean]

I'm definitely going to replace the battery as well and I'll definitely go for numax this time

Which one in particular is recommended 

Just spoke to a lovely chap who's a campervan specialist but he wanted £288+ vat to install the duritec. I respect he's going to know what he's doing totally but I know it's not more than an hour's work at most. He said he charges £60 an hour plus vat guess he thinks its 4hs ?

 

[Davy G]

I'm definitely going to replace the battery as well and I'll definitely go for numax this time

Which one in particular is recommended 

Just spoke to a lovely chap who's a campervan specialist but he wanted £288+ vat to install the duritec. I respect he's going to know what he's doing totally but I know it's not more than an hour's work at most. He said he charges £60 an hour plus vat guess he thinks its 4hs ?

I paid around £400 for a professional supply and fit of a Durite SCR and a fuse protected charging flylead from the back doors to the batteries to connect a mains charger without needing to access the batteries which are in heavy duty battery boxes under an equipment shelf. I'd recommend a fuse protected charging flylead for anyone regularly mains charging.

Electrics can take longer than we might think to do it right. Everything is a bit fiddly and has to be properly protected with sleeving, clips and fuses. I fitted one to my campervan myself after. Less than a £100 for the complete, comprehensive 5 meter kit. It wasn't a quick job. You can add your supply and fitting to your business expenses on your tax returns.

For a battery my recommendation is Numax 120AH MV35. Beast of a battery. I use two linked together for supreme reliability (two operators manual reels).  I've never yet needed to mains charge.

 

[Quickwindowclean]

I paid around £400 for a professional supply and fit of a Durite SCR and a fuse protected charging flylead from the back doors to the batteries to connect a mains charger without needing to access the batteries which are in heavy duty battery boxes under an equipment shelf. I'd recommend a fuse protected charging flylead for anyone regularly mains charging.

Electrics can take longer than we might think to do it right. Everything is a bit fiddly and has to be properly protected with sleeving, clips and fuses. I fitted one to my campervan myself after. Less than a £100 for the complete, comprehensive 5 meter kit. It wasn't a quick job. You can add your supply and fitting to your business expenses on your tax returns.

For a battery my recommendation is Numax 120AH MV35. Beast of a battery. I use two linked together for supreme reliability (two operators manual reels).  I've never yet needed to mains charge.

Will definitely be be deducted as an expense just I thought that was a bit excessive mind you what you have is a lot better than what I was asking for I'm not after mains charging if I was that would be awesome sounds like you got a good setup there.

I will check that battery out thank you.

@spruce

 did you say battery to be earthed? There is an earth on the relay which is about a metre and a half away from the battery I guess that's what you mean or do you mean the battery need an additional Earth?

 

[Davy G]

Will definitely be be deducted as an expense just I thought that was a bit excessive mind you what you have is a lot better than what I was asking for I'm not after mains charging if I was that would be awesome sounds like you got a good setup there.

I will check that battery out thank you.

@spruce

 did you say battery to be earthed? There is an earth on the relay which is about a metre and a half away from the battery I guess that's what you mean or do you mean the battery need an additional Earth?

I can answer that and I'm sure @spruce
will confirm. The battery will need to be earthed to the chassis, body or starter battery with the same heavy cable as the positive battery cables. It needs to be a very good robust connection. The earth on the device is only for it to operate, ie switching on and off. We can both await @spruce
Miester's superior knowledge to confirm or otherwise. ?

 

[Quickwindowclean]

I can answer that and I'm sure @spruce
will confirm. The battery will need to be earthed to the chassis, body or starter battery with the same heavy cable as the positive battery cables. It needs to be a very good robust connection. The earth on the device is only for it to operate, ie switching on and off. We can both await @spruce
Miester's superior knowledge to confirm or otherwise. ?

No I don't think there's an earth to the battery there is an earth to the relay charger which is about a metre and a half away on the right near the wheel arch.. so do you have a cable a thick cable also going to the chassis from the battery?

 

[Quickwindowclean]

No I don't think there's an earth to the battery there is an earth to the relay charger which is about a metre and a half away on the right near the wheel arch.. so do you have a cable a thick cable also going to the chassis from the battery?

https://www.vwt4forum.co.uk/threads/need-a-ground-for-leisure-battery.327480/page-2

Just had a little read of this forum plenty of talk about earthing leisure battery ..

Under van chassis.

I wish there was a good establishment that does this for window cleaners or even an individual to do a proper job someone who knows what they're doing could knock of 10 of these sort of wire ups a day.

 

[spruce]

No I don't think there's an earth to the battery there is an earth to the relay charger which is about a metre and a half away on the right near the wheel arch.. so do you have a cable a thick cable also going to the chassis from the battery?

You must earth the leisure battery to the chassis of the van; yes. This could very well explain why your split charge relay isn't working properly. It just a basic of vehicle electrics and circuitry that we have taken for granted is there when discussing your voltage drop problem.

The alternator is pushing voltage down through the relay but the circuit needs to be completed so current can flow through the leisure battery and back to the starter battery via the vans body. The van's alternator is supplying charge to the starter battery some of which is also being diverted to the leisure battery. It needs the return loop to be connected to work correctly.

 

[spruce]

You must earth the leisure battery to the chassis of the van; yes. This could very well explain why your split charge relay isn't working properly. It just a basic of vehicle electrics and circuitry that we have taken for granted is there when discussing your voltage drop problem.

The alternator is pushing voltage down through the relay but the circuit needs to be completed so current can flow through the leisure battery and back to the starter battery via the vans body. The van's alternator is supplying charge to the starter battery some of which is also being diverted to the leisure battery. It needs the return loop to be connected to work correctly.

On a Transit Connect we found a lug hole on the rear wheel inner arch. We carefully scrapped the paint away to metal so a good join was made. This earth point can be made anywhere on the body. It doesn't have to be under the van.

For example, we found a good earthing point was on one of the passenger seat securing bolts on my son's van. The leisure battery is under the passenger seat so very convenient.

 

[Quickwindowclean]

You must earth the leisure battery to the chassis of the van; yes. This could very well explain why your split charge relay isn't working properly. It just a basic of vehicle electrics and circuitry that we have taken for granted is there when discussing your voltage drop problem.

The alternator is pushing voltage down through the relay but the circuit needs to be completed so current can flow through the leisure battery and back to the starter battery via the vans body. The van's alternator is supplying charge to the starter battery some of which is also being diverted to the leisure battery. It needs the return loop to be connected to work correctly.

Oh goodness gracious me.

So what's been happening is I'm getting the relay switching on around 12.6 volts it takes the voltage up to 13.3 then doesn't anymore so an earthing from the leisure battery to the chassis will hopefully increase this.

And I might not even need to buy a new relay system even.. 

 

[spruce]

Here's a wiring diagram @Quickwindowclean

 

[ched999uk]

Oh goodness gracious me.

So what's been happening is I'm getting the relay switching on around 12.6 volts it takes the voltage up to 13.3 then doesn't anymore so an earthing from the leisure battery to the chassis will hopefully increase this.

And I might not even need to buy a new relay system even.. 

As @spruce said basically electricity flows in a loop. So what ever thickness of +ve cable is connected to the leisure battery via scr needs to be replicated on the 0v side of leisure battery. It's fine for the leisure battery 0v cable to be kept short and connected directly to a good chassis point - clean shiny metal not painted metal.

Also scr is just a voltage controlled switch. i.e when van battery is high enough voltage scr connects the leisure battery directly to van battery. The leisure battery will pull what current it wants (within limits) from the alternator/van battery. With a scr you have no control over how much current flows. 

If you havent had a good 0v leisure battery connection then using thicker cable to a good chassis connection could help. You might actually have an alternative 0v path from leisure battery through the powered reel back to chassis that you are not aware of but put a proper thick 0v connection between leisure bat and chassis to eliminate it as an issue.

As for the price of installation I assume he was supplying all kit and installing? If so it's about £100 of kit plus his time. He might never have installed one on your type of van so he is guestimating the time to install. It's sort of like asking you to quote to clean my windows without knowing how many windows I have or how easy access is etc. You say you had a good chat with him and he sounded like a good bloke. OK so £400 for install and new battery isn't cheap but how much hassle and worry are you having, let alone the risk of not being able to work for a day if you have a flat battery...

 

[Quickwindowclean]

Oh goodness gracious me.

So what's been happening is I'm getting the relay switching on around 12.6 volts it takes the voltage up to 13.3 then doesn't anymore so an earthing from the leisure battery to the chassis will hopefully increase this.

And I might not even need to buy a new relay system even.. 

So basically it may not even be a problem with the thickness of the cable and I may have got away with it all the time because I wasnt drawing so much current previously.

Although changing the relay and rewiring will be a good thing.it seems to be 16m squared cable is correct.

But technically I've been destroying batteries because I've not had the battery earth correctly and it hasn't ever been charging correctly for a long time. And although it's a good make now that is under more load the cracks are showing.

Does it matter if the Earth is about a metre away to the chassis or even a bit more just thinking about it?

Just saw your post regarding where to put it and I'm going to have to try to make a note of that.

 

[Quickwindowclean]

As @spruce said basically electricity flows in a loop. So what ever thickness of +ve cable is connected to the leisure battery via scr needs to be replicated on the 0v side of leisure battery. It's fine for the leisure battery 0v cable to be kept short and connected directly to a good chassis point - clean shiny metal not painted metal.

Also scr is just a voltage controlled switch. i.e when van battery is high enough voltage scr connects the leisure battery directly to van battery. The leisure battery will pull what current it wants (within limits) from the alternator/van battery. With a scr you have no control over how much current flows. 

If you havent had a good 0v leisure battery connection then using thicker cable to a good chassis connection could help. You might actually have an alternative 0v path from leisure battery through the powered reel back to chassis that you are not aware of but put a proper thick 0v connection between leisure bat and chassis to eliminate it as an issue.

As for the price of installation I assume he was supplying all kit and installing? If so it's about £100 of kit plus his time. He might never have installed one on your type of van so he is guestimating the time to install. It's sort of like asking you to quote to clean my windows without knowing how many windows I have or how easy access is etc. You say you had a good chat with him and he sounded like a good bloke. OK so £400 for install and new battery isn't cheap but how much hassle and worry are you having, let alone the risk of not being able to work for a day if you have a flat battery...

No it was about 350 including vat plus kit and new battery. Totally agree it would cost a lot of hassle for me but I'm persevering at the moment happy to pay a sensible amount just felt that was a bit much just for labour.

So will have to call around.

I'm surprised nobody here doesn't do it for extra money 

 

[Quickwindowclean]

Here's a wiring diagram @Quickwindowclean

View attachment 23814

View attachment 23815

I've got things attached to the black section but those are basically pumps reels. The relay is connected with the red cable and then there is a little black cable coming out the relay going to the earth I think the person who installed this for me assume that was the whole system earthed.

There is definitely not a heavy-duty cable going from the leisure battery all the way down onto the chassis. And what I've just learnt is this is definitely missing so that will be my first point of call I hope I understand this correctly

 

[Quickwindowclean]

So Question regarding this earthing 

So the starter battery is earthed to the chassis the leisure battery is being charged when you run the engine does that mean that the leisure & starter batteries are effectively in parallel whilst the engine is running? and that could mean that the negatives of each battery as well as the positives via a relay are connected together.

I'm just trying to figure it all out its defo more fun then cleaning windows but if the above is true if that is the case can this mean the leisure battery is already connected to the chassis.?

Hope my question makes sense.

 

[Quickwindowclean]

Ok I found it very short self-explanatory video all I have to do is do this myself or send it to somebody who's a bit more handier than me.

He does everything he earths the battery as well and he's definitely running the thicker cable seems the 16 mm Square cable is required.

This video is quick and shows everything simple I think we are sorted.

Just need to find right places for earth .

 

[ched999uk]

No it was about 350 including vat plus kit and new battery. Totally agree it would cost a lot of hassle for me but I'm persevering at the moment happy to pay a sensible amount just felt that was a bit much just for labour.

So will have to call around.

I'm surprised nobody here doesn't do it for extra money 

£350 just for labour does seem expensive as even worst case it should be less than half a days work. 

As for earth - the shorter the better. When we say chassis we mean any metal part of the van body, it doesn't need to be taken all the way under the van to the 'chassis' - most are unibody anyway (no separate chassis - body work and chassis all one these days.)

I guess no one really does fitting electric stuff as an 'add on' is because they can earn more by cleaning windows ? plus then you need public liability insurance in case you make a mistake and a van goes up in smoke etc.

So add a good connection from leisure battery 0V to chassis of van and see how you go.

 

[spruce]

9 minutes ago, Quickwindowclean said:

Ok I found it very short self-explanatory video all I have to do is do this myself or send it to somebody who's a bit more handier than me.

He does everything he earths the battery as well and he's definitely running the thicker cable seems the 16 mm Square cable is required.

This video is quick and shows everything simple I think we are sorted.

Just need to find right places for earth .

Not really a how to video but will give you a pretty good idea how to do it.